"As per this verse it is evident that the first (the forerunner or the best people of our Ummah ) are the companions( the Muhajireen and the Ansar) of our prophet and the people who followed the companions of our prophet ."

From where did you get the red information?

Do you have any better explanation for "the Muhajireen and the Ansar",Ben

)
I Was not angry just wanted emphasis that the way you do your prayer or the way I do my prayer is something personal.
Don't judge the prayers of others, they can use the same arguments to invalidate your prayer.

You may be correct ,but there is specific way and purpose for each and every thing and we cannot avoid it

Like I said if you analyze them with Bukhary than probably you have some very good points.

I do not only believe in The Quran, I believe in every truth.
Doing a ritual has nothing to do with truths, it's just a ritual. Allah will not question us about our rituals.

can you elaborate the phrase "I believe in every truth" as far as i know the final truth is Quran .
if we are living in a specific country then we must abide by its laws .we follow them because we fear that we will be held for them if we don't follow them .
in the same pattern , i am bounded by the laws of Quran only difference is that i fear that i will be held responsible for violating it in akhira .you may correct ,as i told you before about the GOD's view in Quran you may be in these category .is it makes you lawless .this is just an inquiry .

)
The only reason I started this conversation was/is because of you topic title.
btw The Quran is a wonderful book, but do not turn into a quranist.

the main reason for this title is, if we ask ALLAH subahnavatala to guide us to a right path then how our ancestors were not rightly guided

Ok I'll try.

"As per this verse it is evident that the first (the forerunner or the best people of our Ummah ) are the companions( the Muhajireen and the Ansar) of our prophet and the people who followed the companions of our prophet ."

From where did you get the red information?

Seems you have become angry ,Ben
ok ,if you want to jump ....jump

I Was not angry just wanted emphasis that the way you do your prayer or the way I do my prayer is something personal.
Don't judge the prayers of others, they can use the same arguments to invalidate your prayer.

if you say , you can only believe in Quran and not the rest of things then you should prove me, beyond doubt,with your logic that the verses i mention meant actually some other things.

Like I said if you analyze them with Bukhary than probably you have some very good points.

I do not only believe in The Quran, I believe in every truth.
Doing a ritual has nothing to do with truths, it's just a ritual. Allah will not question us about our rituals.

At the end of the discussions one of these things might happen ,
1.I may turn as Quranist
2.you may turn as conditional traditional Muslim like me

The only reason I started this conversation was/is because of you topic title.
btw The Quran is a wonderful book, but do not turn into a quranist.

"Verse 9.100

And the first forerunners among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct ? Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

As per this verse it is evident that the first (the forerunner or the best people of our Ummah ) are the companions( the Muhajireen and the Ansar) of our prophet and the people who followed the companions of our prophet .This verse clearly shows that the generation next to the generation of our prophet is equally pious as the companions of our prophet .in other words, the people of first two generations were the first forerunners . "

There is really nothing evident in the red part except if I take Bukhary & Co as my source to understand the verse, then it makes some sense.

You have made the entire ayah as red .can you be more specific ,Ben

yes I am very good in counting, I have already counted thrice to infinity, 1 times more than Chuck Norris.

Congratulations ,Ben

Are you challenging Allah?
I clearly said that I ask Allah every time while jumping to lead me to siraat almustaqeem, so why are your questioning Allah?

It is not you who has to show me how I should do my prayer.
It MY prayer, like your prayer is YOURS.

Seems you have become angry ,Ben
ok ,if you want to jump ....jump
I was standing in my balcony with a cup of tea in my hand and watching the mid summer sky where it meet that clear blue sea on a fine morning .suddenly a huge angle appeared in front of me .i dropped my cup and started counting his wings .when is successfully counted his 600 wings he was very happy and gave me hard copy of a book and told me "this is Quran".......sorry ,Ben this is big lie ...nothing of these things ever happened with me in my life and as matter of fact no one can claim he received a hard copy of Quran from an angle.Quran came to us by one and only media called tawatur and the same media gave us salah .Both Quran and salah were never thought with the books rather they were thought by reciting and performing in front of the learners .
Moreover , Quran supports the traditions as per the verses i gave in my OP .if you say , you can only believe in Quran and not the rest of things then you should prove me, beyond doubt,with your logic that the verses i mention meant actually some other things.
At the end of the discussions one of these things might happen ,
1.I may turn as Quranist
2.you may turn as conditional traditional Muslim like me

Great because I love to question your answers
While we have some minor differences in opinion, I think you are O0

This was my initial question to you in my OP , as a matter of fact no one has ever dare to touch those ayahs in my OP .so far none of you answered my quranic verses that i kept in my Op .you are yet to prove me that i am wrong

Ok lets start with the first part.

"Verse 9.100

And the first forerunners among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct ? Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

As per this verse it is evident that the first (the forerunner or the best people of our Ummah ) are the companions( the Muhajireen and the Ansar) of our prophet and the people who followed the companions of our prophet .This verse clearly shows that the generation next to the generation of our prophet is equally pious as the companions of our prophet .in other words, the people of first two generations were the first forerunners . "

There is really nothing evident in the red part except if I take Bukhary & Co as my source to understand the verse, then it makes some sense.

Not 99 or 101 times ,exactly 100 times uh .you seem to have great talent in counting things ,some time you count exactly 600 wings of an angel and at times you count your jumps daily !.lol

yes I am very good in counting, I have already counted thrice to infinity, 1 times more than Chuck Norris.

did you ever try to eat without using hands ,Ben .why not eat directly with mouth without using hands .ultimately we have to eat .so why use hands .
so every thing got its purpose and we have to use it only for that purpose .if it is salah then it is not gymnastic .

RED Because it is better to use my hands.

if you jump then it is not salah

Are you challenging Allah?
I clearly said that I ask Allah every time while jumping to lead me to siraat almustaqeem, so why are your questioning Allah?

So before you die perform salah ,not gymnastics .salah definitely purifies soul .you will feel it

It is not you who has to show me how I should do my prayer.
It MY prayer, like your prayer is YOURS.

Oh sermon!

yes I know, I am better in counting than giving sermons.

i think you even did not read the verses i posted in my Op .pl read them and understand them.after that read your above quote and answer yourself

I did read your OP Parvez, also your other posts.

No probs ,Ben i love to answer your questions

You should doubt about yourself not about Allahs guidance, there is never anything to blame on Allah, it's always our own fault.

You are not challenging Him by that, you are challenging yourself. You are only challenging Him when you do evil.

This was my initial question to you in my OP , as a matter of fact no one has ever dare to touch those ayahs in my OP .so far none of you answered my quranic verses that i kept in my Op .you are yet to prove me that i am wrong

Today I jump 100 times before I go to work while jumping I ask Allah to guide me to siraat al mustaqeem.
Tomorrow I do the same and so on till I die.

Not 99 or 101 times ,exactly 100 times uh .you seem to have great talent in counting things ,some time you count exactly 600 wings of an angel and at times you count your jumps daily !.lol
did you ever try to eat without using hands ,Ben .why not eat directly with mouth without using hands .ultimately we have to eat .so why use hands .
so every thing got its purpose and we have to use it only for that purpose .if it is salah then it is not gymnastic .if you jump then it is not salah
So before you die perform salah ,not gymnastics .salah definitely purifies soul .you will feel it

maybe your previous generation is better then yours, but how about yourself? Are you worse than them? if so then change that. And changing that has seriously nothing to do with how you do your prayer. Your prayer is between you and God, He understand every prayer and answers to every prayer of His 3ibaad, no matter how you do it and who you are, He is Allah your maker, He knows.

Oh sermon!
i think you even did not read the verses i posted in my Op .pl read them and understand them.after that read your above quote and answer yourself

Hi,

Yes sorry, maybe to many questions.

RED Doubt about Allahs guidance? don't worry this was not a question
You should doubt about yourself not about Allahs guidance, there is never anything to blame on Allah, it's always our own fault.

because i, my self is asking him to guide me to the siratal mustaqim whenever i perform salah .

Today I jump 100 times before I go to work while jumping I ask Allah to guide me to siraat al mustaqeem.
Tomorrow I do the same and so on till I die.

If i doubt about the salah , then i will be challenging ALLAH subhanvatala which i will never do .

You are not challenging Him by that, you are challenging yourself. You are only challenging Him when you do evil.

moreover from the verses 56 10-14 it is evident that my previous generation was better than mine,i have to believe that the salah that i perform was the salah mention in the Quran

maybe your previous generation is better then yours, but how about yourself? Are you worse than them? if so then change that. And changing that has seriously nothing to do with how you do your prayer. Your prayer is between you and God, He understand every prayer and answers to every prayer of His 3ibaad, no matter how you do it and who you are, He is Allah your maker, He knows.

You said "This is called believing in unseen ."
then I asked "Ok but what does that mean?"

Your answer above is not an answer to my question.

So you are claiming that the word "sallaat" in the quran is equal to the traditional ritual prayer that Parvez Mustaq is performing 5 times a day?
Or did I misunderstood you?

You seem to have lot questions for me ,Ben
I never had an angel telling me to follow Quran .for about 30 years i was a Friday Muslim .only after 30 years i got myself involved much in Quran .and quran says believe in unseen and i believe that this was the same Quran given to the the prophet mohammed sallahu alaiwa sallam
In the same way , i believe the salah that i am performing daily 5 times a day was the same salah performed by the prophet mohammed sallahu aliwas salam
if it had not been the salah which Quran is talking about than , i have to doubt about the guidance of ALLAH subhanvatala . because i, my self is asking him to guide me to the siratal mustaqim whenever i perform salah .If i doubt about the salah , then i will be challenging ALLAH subhanvatala which i will never do .moreover from the verses 56 10-14 it is evident that my previous generation was better than mine,i have to believe that the salah that i perform was the salah mention in the Quran

What is exactly God's view of the quran? And is Parvez understanding of the quran equal to "GOD's view"?
I also have no clue what "Abrogated version of all religion" means, can you give an example please?

First let me talk about GOD's view
all religions are same in front of GOD and whoever is/was following their religion as per the original message then he will done justice by the GOD .
Quran highlights about this concept ,for example , Jews had a different Qiblah ,food as well as laws also as per Quran .ALLAH Subhanvatala commanded them to follow Quran yet we have Jews living even today and most of them might be ignorant of Quran as well .Did Quran said whoever is not following quran will go to hell , on the other hand it gives the assurance for all types monotheists not to fear and they will judged in a correct way........this is GOD's view
On the other hand the same Quran clearly details about the difference we have between Jews for example , our Qiblah ,,our food and as well as laws are either abrogated or changed .it commands us to follow these new changes
Can you name a religion or a verse from any scripture except Quran which advocates or assures other followers and commands not to worry and they will be judge fairly.........this is what i call the abrogated version of all religions .

If something (quran or whatever) speaks the truth, then I must believe in it, not doing this is equal to not believing in Allah's huda. At least that is what is inspired to me.

If so , then ,in daily salah we ask ALLAH subhanavatala to guide us in siratal mustaqim and if you say my salah is not the salah that is mention in Quran then is it not equal to not believing in ALLAH subhanvatala.If you believe in Quran you must also believe in salah .both are like believing in unseen .

Believe in him like how? That he existed or that he showed us how to do a ritual prayer?

Exactly .....believe that he existed and showed us how to perform ritual prayer

Just a tip, when he decides to appear to you then you should not pay attention to his wings those are only to show off, you should pay attention to his message.

i will not forget your advice ,Ben
i think this was the mistake you did when he appeared before you .your failed to concentrate on his message on the other hand you started counting his wings and i think you did no mistake in counting his wings and you counted exactly 600 wings !it is unfortunate that you left his message and concentrated on his wings , Ben

Salaam Parvez,

You said "This is called believing in unseen ."
then I asked "Ok but what does that mean?"

Your answer above is not an answer to my question.

there is no room at all .as simple as it is

So you are claiming that the word "sallaat" in the quran is equal to the traditional ritual prayer that Parvez Mustaq is performing 5 times a day?
Or did I misunderstood you?

For all this question i have a single answer
as per my understanding there are two apparent messages in Quran
1.GOD's view
2.Abrogated version of all religion

the problem with FMians is that the mingle both the messages and try to incorporate the GOD's view with the abrogated versions

What is exactly God's view of the quran? And is Parvez understanding of the quran equal to "GOD's view"?
I also have no clue what "Abrogated version of all religion" means, can you give an example please?

If you believe in GOD than no need to believe in Quran,

If something (quran or whatever) speaks the truth, then I must believe in it, not doing this is equal to not believing in Allah's huda. At least that is what is inspired to me.

if you want to believe in Quran than you should also believe in prophet Mohammed sallahu alai wa salllam .

Believe in him like how? That he existed or that he showed us how to do a ritual prayer?

Next time you see that angel pl send him to me .I am residing near the sea in Chennai .i don't have a cave because there are no mountains here, pl ask him adjust
pl dont forget to count the wings when you see him again and i will also count his wings first ,if he comes to me .i will not compromise anything less than 600 wings .if he got more wings no problem for me but he should have minimum of 600 wings .Nobody can cheat me with regard to wings muscle

RED unfortunately I do not have such powers.
Just a tip, when he decides to appear to you then you should not pay attention to his wings those are only to show off, you should pay attention to his message.

I don't like hypocrisy. You come here with your pious "subhanvatala" but fail to acknowledge that the One who could create the entire Universe did not leave some ''fingerprints'' in His Book?

The land-sea ratio and many others miracles are real if you believe in Allah. If you don't believe in these miracles so why believing in Allah?

However, apologies accepted handshake

It does not matter what prophet anyone follows if any.

Is course once we hear the truth or instruction from God revealed by God via his messengers we are required to live by it and also to make no distinction among any of his messengers.

It seems a bit unclear what point exactly you are trying to make, but God's religion is about a personal relationship with our Lord and our duties and obligations to him more than anything else. Making any human being the focus of our religion is idolatry.

Peace

Good sermon ,Timo

It does not matter what prophet anyone follows if any.

Is course once we hear the truth or instruction from God revealed by God via his messengers we are required to live by it and also to make no distinction among any of his messengers.

It seems a bit unclear what point exactly you are trying to make, but God's religion is about a personal relationship with our Lord and our duties and obligations to him more than anything else. Making any human being the focus of our religion is idolatry.

Peace

Few examples are
1.

If you believe then obey ALLAH subhanvatala at least while you are reading these verses and make sujood
Note this is offtopic because we not discussing these things here .if you want to make stories you can use these here and that was everybody is doing here

This is our topic and i know you will never talk about these verses

proof regarding what

just explain your understanding of the verses in my OP

television, ozone, neutron, proton, Halley comet, hemoglobine and DNA are mentioned in the Qu'ran. Open a new thread because I do not want to make off-topic.

How ?
by say 5+3 = 8 implies such and such surah
then 3+2 = 5 such and such verse
or then saying it is the year of innovation of such and such thing ....lol rotfl
Yeah with your weird logic of numerology .I don't need these proofs to believe that Quran is from ALLAH subhanvatala .i am personally witnessing those things every day of my life .even today i got the proof regarding ALLAH subahnavtala.so keep your silly proves with yourself

I can bring you the evidence that

television, ozone, neutron, proton, Halley comet, hemoglobine and DNA are mentioned in the Qu'ran. Open a new thread because I do not want to make off-topic.

proof regarding what

again u are running to show me evidence from quran, where Allah say to do sujjod physically on these 14 ocassions?

but again what my claim was and waht i asked from you you failed to give the answer, i dnt mmind doing physcial sajood on 14 diff occassion but i just need evidence to do anything which is reffered to God,

i think we are agree to disagree rest of the things what u highlighted i never made that things my subject with you go read through all my posts in this thread from start.

peace

i checked ,all your post are empty
Just explain me that you are not going against the verse that i mentioned in in my OP
i want the proof from the ayah not empty post like the above .

but again what my claim was and waht i asked from you you failed to give the answer, i dnt mmind doing physcial sajood on 14 diff occassion but i just need evidence to do anything which is reffered to God,

i think we are agree to disagree rest of the things what u highlighted i never made that things my subject with you go read through all my posts in this thread from start.

peace

I am not defending the secondary issue,Imran .The problem is ,no one seems to understand me here .To make the sujood you don't need ahadith ,just feel the meaning of the ayah and if you say you are among the one who strongly believe "sameen wa ataana" ,than you should make sujood

the 14 places of sajood come from secondary sources in the light of quran Allah did not give any instruction to do physical sujood on these 14 occassions, if you have any evidence from quran i will be the first one who accpet it, and if you have any proof from secondary sources then sorry for that i cant digest it, i really dnt know who authorised them to write these tales, niether Allah nor prophet , these are just biography books example of these books you can say wikipedia of today , hope u got it

safe

Thank GOD you did not listed ahadith.I thought you will be listing ahadith regarding camel urine or milking hadith etc .I think did not understood the question i posed on you .It was not sujood but it was about "is there any thing called physical sujood "once again check my post here
BTW , this is general question for the posters here including you ,imran
we are on the third page and this is 25th replay .note one thing ,imran have you seen any of the poster argued about the verses i highlighted in my OP
do you know why ,Imran
because you know i am correct so everyone of just making stories

the 14 places of sajood come from secondary sources in the light of quran Allah did not give any instruction to do physical sujood on these 14 occassions, if you have any evidence from quran i will be the first one who accpet it, and if you have any proof from secondary sources then sorry for that i cant digest it, i really dnt know who authorised them to write these tales, niether Allah nor prophet , these are just biography books example of these books you can say wikipedia of today , hope u got it

safe

did not get you , what you try to say can you please detail it, who are fmians

People who belong to FM .i am also included in this

If you think you are supposed to get a mail or latter from the almighty as a token of acceptance of your salah than you should stop believing in Quran as well .Did you ever got a mail from the almighty that this Quran is the same Quran given to prophet mohammed sallalhu alaiwa sallam

This does not leave much room for a conversation...

there is no room at all .as simple as it is

I know that here on this forum a lot of people do a totally different salah then yours BUT they still believe in Mohammed and in The Quran.
How does that work for them?

Then why this topic and why did you ask this "Are the quranist challenging ALLAH subhanavatal about his guidance?"

I like to, but it's not only 1 difference, it will really take me a lot of time to comment/highlight on everything I disagreed with.
And I think that our understanding on this subject differs so much that a lot of times we will probably not understand each other.

For all this question i have a single answer
as per my understanding there are two apparent messages in Quran
1.GOD's view
2.Abrogated version of all religion

the problem with FMians is that the mingle both the messages and try to incorporate the GOD's view with the abrogated versions
If you believe in GOD than no need to believe in Quran ,if you want to believe in Quran than you should also believe in prophet Mohammed sallahu alai wa salllam .

Then on a rainy Friday morning when I was meditating in a cave at mount Sina an angel with 600 wings appeared in the horizon.
He said "Stop lying to yourself" in a gentle way and he disappeared. I did not understood what he meant with that. And for a couple of days I was confused.
Then I went back to the holy cave at mount Sina, hoping to meet the angel again. Well the angel came again but this time he was not so kind anymore.
I asked what he meant last time.
Apparently that was not the most wise thing to do as he grabbed me and punched me with a mighty punch to the right side of the universe then to the left and finally back to earth.
He said "Do you understand now?"
I nodded, not because of fear of another punishment, but because I really understood.
He gave me then a handshake and then disappeared in the horizons.
Since that day I do not preform any ritual anymore and also a lot of other things changed.

Next time you see that angel pl send him to me .I am residing near the sea in Chennai .i don't have a cave because there are no mountains here, pl ask him adjust
pl dont forget to count the wings when you see him again and i will also count his wings first ,if he comes to me .i will not compromise anything less than 600 wings .if he got more wings no problem for me but he should have minimum of 600 wings .Nobody can cheat me with regard to wings muscle