While we all know there are powers in life which are not God personified, but that are held in other hands by God's will, we know that that is no real power but what God allows for His own purposes, so when we associate to the Qur'an other books giving them the same authority and truth as to the Qur'an we are diretly misguiding us horribly. Other hadith, Bujari, bible, human recognized authors like Ibn Arabi or Rumi, can exist, we can use and we can learn from them, provided we do not associate them to the Qur'an.

Any power we perceive, however compelling we should never forget that is subservient to God, it does not exist by itself

And we cannot claim for any text any authenticity or authority except in so far and in those aspects or questions as it matches scrupulously the Qur'an. We may read it, we may study it, but we should not hold it as authoritative together with the Qur'an.

Salaam

Doesn't mean "last" here, but people coming after.

Also this is a note from Edip Yuksel this verse.

The word salaf (past, ancestors, predecessors) is currently used as a label by the radical Sunnis who reject sectarian jurisprudence, yet rely directly on hadith and sunna; they claim to be the followers of the prophet and his companions, whom they call salaf. The Salafi movement started with Ibn Taymiyya, a charismatic scholar who rejected some major tenets of orthodox teachings. Orthodox Sunni sects promote blindly following the fatwas or jurisprudence of a particular sect and discourage from interpreting and inferring directly from hadith. Ibn Taymiyya argued that every Muslim must have direct access to hadith books and learn their religion through studying them, rather than being bound by the views of earlier scholars. Though Salafis justifiably rejected many polytheistic teachings and rituals, such as sectarian jurisprudence, intercession and imploring shrines, they unfortunately indulged in fabricated hadith, and advocated a narrow (mis)understanding of the Quran, such as rejecting the use of metaphors. Since, they set hadith sources as partners with God in practicing Islam, they ended up with a religion that reflected a concoction of Arabic, Jewish and Christian culture from medieval times. The majority of salafis live in Saudi Arabia and they promote a Taliban-style tyrannical system that produces an ignorant, misogynistic and backward crowd who subject themselves to being herded like sheep by the moral police. As we noted in relation to the words hadith, sunna, and ijma, the word salaf too has negative connotations in the Quran. This is a miraculous prophecy of the Quran; major sects who abandoned the Quran by setting up various lists of "holy" idols and teachings as partners with God in His system, use labels and names that are convicted by the Quran. The word salaf in all its derivatives, occurs eight times (2285; 422; 595; 838; 1030; 6924; 4356), and in only one occurrence, here, is it used as a reference to a community of people who were ignorant, aggressive and oppressive. For the prophetic reference of the Quran regarding other sectarian labels, see 3338.

Note this from FM translation

4332 Is it they who assign the mercy of your Lord? We have assigned their share in this worldly life, and We raised some of them above others in ranks, so that they would take one another in service. The mercy from your Lord is far better than that which they amass.
4333 And were it not that all the people would become one nation, We would have provided for those who reject the Almighty silver roofs for their homes, and stairs upon which they could ascend.
4334 And for their homes, gates, and beds on which they could recline.
4335 And many ornaments. All these are the pleasures of this worldly life. And the Hereafter with your Lord is for the righteous.
4336 And whoever turns away from the remembrance of the Almighty, We appoint a devil to be his associate.
4337 And they hinder from the path, but they think they are guided!
4338 Until he comes to Us, he will say, "Oh, I wish that between you and me was the distance of the two easts. What a miserable associate!"
4339 It would not benefit you this Day, for you have transgressed; you are partners in the retribution.
4340 Can you make the deaf hear, or can you guide the blind and those who are far astray?
4341 So if We take you away, We may then seek revenge on them.
4342 Or We may show you that which We promised for them; for We are able to take them.
4343 You shall hold on to that which is inspired to you; for you are on a straight path.
4344 And this is indeed a reminder for you and your people; and you will all be questioned.
4345 And ask those of Our messengers whom We sent before you "Did We ever appoint gods besides the Almighty to be served?"
4346 And We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his commanders; so he said "I am a messenger of the Lord of the worlds."
4347 But when he came to them with Our signs, they laughed at them.
4348 And every sign We showed them was greater than the one before it, and We seized them with the torment, perhaps they would return.
4349 And they said "O you magician, call on your Lord for what pledge He gave you; we will then be guided."
4350 But when We removed the torment from them, they broke their word.
4351 And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people "O my people, do I not possess the kingship of Egypt, and these rivers that flow below me? Do you not see?"
4352 "Am I not better than this one who is despised and he can barely be understood?"
4353 "Why then are not golden bracelets bestowed on him, or the angels are accompanying him?"
4354 He thus convinced his people, and they obeyed him; they were a wicked people.
4355 So when they persisted in opposing Us, We sought revenge from them, and drowned them all.
4356 We thus made them a thing of the past, and an example for the others.

You can also ponder this verse
4356 We thus made them a thing of the past, and an example for the others (Lil'khirna).

Doesn't mean "last" here, but people coming after.

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I cant read arabic sorry

1736 Do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these are held responsible for that. )

You can look at here http//baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%B1

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Could you show me the link? I have to be sure as Allah (SWT) gave us a very important advice in this verse.

1736 Do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these are held responsible for that. )

Could be? (forgive me if this being rude)

I'm not so often on FM, so not able to answer quickly.

So in shortness you are referring to reincarnation im guessing correctly or have i missed something?

Sort of. The question is reincarnation of what ? I don't think it is reincarnation of the soul.
It could be reincarnation of the djinn (as I believe that the djinn is human imaginary).

Um Anoushirvan im not sure where you get that information fom but these sits says the oppasite http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Axr & http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=22,ll=68,ls=5,la=38,sg=38,ha=24,br=43,pr=11,vi=63,mgf=43,mr=37,mn=12,aan=32,kz=26,uqq=7,ulq=266,uqa=21,uqw=116,umr=41,ums=25,umj=38,bdw=29,amr=14,asb=21,auh=68,dhq=15,mht=10,msb=10,tla=22,amj=26,ens=71,mis=543

Yes I'm aware that corpus quran translates by "last", and I still disagree.

Akhir in Arabic has several meanings. According to Maqays al-Lughat, one of the oldest Arabic dictionnaries, the root meaning is two branches, one of both making progress.
And yaum al-akhir is exactly that the day, i.e. the step, where some stay where they are, imprisoned in the old order and others moving forward to the new order.

Um Anoushirvan im not sure where you get that information fom but these sits says the oppasite http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Axr & http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=22,ll=68,ls=5,la=38,sg=38,ha=24,br=43,pr=11,vi=63,mgf=43,mr=37,mn=12,aan=32,kz=26,uqq=7,ulq=266,uqa=21,uqw=116,umr=41,ums=25,umj=38,bdw=29,amr=14,asb=21,auh=68,dhq=15,mht=10,msb=10,tla=22,amj=26,ens=71,mis=543

On the contrary, Quran keeps saying that we will recreated in a new creation, e.g.

1798 Such is their recompense that they rejected Our revelations, and they said "If we are bones and fragments, will we be sent into a new creation?"

A new creation is not something hypothetical that will take place in an undefined future when Earth or Universe would be destroyed.
No, a new creation is something that can be constantly observed

2919 Did they not observe how God initiates the creation then He returns it? All that for God is easy to do.
2920 Say "Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Thus God will establish the final next creation. God is capable of all things."

Here I disagree with FM translation, akhira doesn't mean "last" or "final" but "after" or "next".
In these verses we are asked to observe. So creation and new creation is something we can personnally witness.

Paradise is not to be found elsewhere than on Earth as explained in this verse

3974 And they said "Praise be to God who has fulfilled His promise to us, and He made us inherit the land, enjoying Paradise as we please. What a beautiful recompense for the workers!"

As for this verse

4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of intoxicants that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

It is borrowed from a Jewish midrash attributed to Yehoshuah ben Levi in 3rd century C.E., see http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise

Finally, with a bit of though and pondering, it appears that death in Quran is largely a metaphor for idolatry, and that "resurrection" in a new creation is actually a metaphor for spiritual renaissance.
This spiritual renaissance actually took place in the seventh century after quranic predication by Muhammad's followers.

What is needed is a spiritual renaissance of the Muslim world because it is now almost spiritually dead.

So in shortness you are referring to reincarnation im guessing correctly or have i missed something?

On the contrary, Quran keeps saying that we will recreated in a new creation, e.g.

1798 Such is their recompense that they rejected Our revelations, and they said "If we are bones and fragments, will we be sent into a new creation?"

A new creation is not something hypothetical that will take place in an undefined future when Earth or Universe would be destroyed.
No, a new creation is something that can be constantly observed

2919 Did they not observe how God initiates the creation then He returns it? All that for God is easy to do.
2920 Say "Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Thus God will establish the final next creation. God is capable of all things."

Here I disagree with FM translation, akhira doesn't mean "last" or "final" but "after" or "next".
In these verses we are asked to observe. So creation and new creation is something we can personnally witness.

Paradise is not to be found elsewhere than on Earth as explained in this verse

3974 And they said "Praise be to God who has fulfilled His promise to us, and He made us inherit the land, enjoying Paradise as we please. What a beautiful recompense for the workers!"

As for this verse

4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of intoxicants that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

It is borrowed from a Jewish midrash attributed to Yehoshuah ben Levi in 3rd century C.E., see http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise

"Paradise has two diamond gates, and there are 600,000 attending angels with shining faces. Immediately on the arrival of the righteous, they divest him of his shroud and clothe him witheight garments made of clouds of honor. They put a double crown of fine gold and jewels on his head, and place eight myrtles in his hand. The angels salute him, saying, 'Go eat thy bread with joy,' and lead him along valleys of water in which grow 800 species of roses and myrtles. Each of the righteous has a canopy as is befitting his excellence. Connected with each canopy are four rivulets of milk, wine, balsam, and honey. Over each canopy grows a golden vine studded with thirty pearls, each glittering like Venus. Under the canopy is a table of onyx set with diamonds and pearls. Sixty angels guard every righteous one and ask him to partake of the honey as compensation for his study of the Law, which is likened to honey (Ps. xix. 10), and to drink the wine, which has been preserved in its grapes ever since the six days of Creation, the Law being likened to spiced wine (Cant. viii. 2). The most uncomely of the righteous becomes as beautiful as Joseph and as R. Johanan. Exiguous silver pomegranates reflect the sun, which is always shining; for 'the path of the just is as the shining light' (Prov. iv. 1. There are three stages through which the newcomer has to pass (1) the section of the children, which he enters as at child; (2) the section of the young; and (3) the section of the old. In each section he enjoys himself as befits his state and age"

Finally, with a bit of though and pondering, it appears that death in Quran is largely a metaphor for idolatry, and that "resurrection" in a new creation is actually a metaphor for spiritual renaissance.
This spiritual renaissance actually took place in the seventh century after quranic predication by Muhammad's followers.

What is needed is a spiritual renaissance of the Muslim world because it is now almost spiritually dead.

What do you think?

The comments were in relation to the author of the website saying it is OK for people to eat pork which is something God tells us not to in the Quran - that in itself is a bit of a red herring.
Then the author translates HARAM as something that's OK or sanctioned - this surely seems an exaggeration.

I wonder, if he said killing is OK or inciting hatred is OK, would hat be a red line at all or fall into a category of what people are taught or what they accept?

One thing you are right in saying is that people are indeed at ease in picking up what others do, irrespective or it being right or wrong - that's peer pressure and the need to fit in.

Salam
Ed

That is right. If it allegorical it is allegorical and then the author is tripping all over himself.

And of course the justice of God who will not cheat anybody even on an atom worth goes down the drain.

Very shocking indeed. Become drug dealer or a warlord be successful and establish yourself in the west. That is the way to go to heaven.

Salaam

Large swathes of humanity do not have this idea of ?heaven and hell? in their belief systems. The buddhist based civilizations (China, Korea, Japan) and the hindus do not have any idea of a permanent afterlife in a heaven or hell. That is almost half the human race. We cannot simply dismiss the intellect of half the human race.

Actually, hindus do have concepts of hell and heaven. One of the heavens is known as "Jannah". From them
"According to the Hindu Puranas, there are fourteen worlds in the universe - the seven upper and the seven lower. The seven upper worlds are Bhuh, Bhavah, Swah, Mahah, Janah. Tapah, and Satyam; and the seven nether worlds are Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Rasatala, Talatala, Mahatala, and Patala. The region known as Bhuh is the earth where we dwell, while Swah is the celestial world to which people repair after death to enjoy the reward of their righteous actions on earth. Bhuvah is the region between the two. Janah, Tapah, and Satyam constitute Brahmaloka, or the highest heaven, where fortunate souls repair after death and enjoy spiritual communion with the personal God, and at the end of the cycle attain liberation, though a few return to earth again. The world of Mahah is located between Brahmaloka and Bhuh, Bhuuah, and Swah. Patala, the lowest of the seven nether worlds, is the realm where wicked souls sojourn after death and reap the results of their unrighteous actions on earth."

There are two kinds of Buddhism. In one which is found in Asian countries is a reformed version. It takes into account all pagan elements. Hence, the similarity it shares with Hinduism.

Smart beggars called themselves priests and frightened the masses with burning hellfire if the masses did not listen to them. Those who listened to them, accompanied by donations in the box, would be promised the delights and promises of heaven. The 72 virgins promised to the muslim suicide bombers all over the world are just variations of the same idea. The underlying falsehood remains the same.

hmm This person doesn't seem to know much about Middle Eastern societies.

Biggest fail

2435 ALLAH is the light of the skies and the earth. The allegory (mathalu) of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it. Light upon light. ALLAH guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). ALLAH thus cites the allegories (mathalu) for the people. ALLAH is fully aware of all things.

It does not mean here that Allah is the actual light (like a torchlight or street lamp) of the skies and the earth. The sufis confuse this particular verse and make much about the ?spiritual light of Allah?. Allah is not a spirit and there is no such thing as spirituality or spiritual light either.

This verse explains clearly what is an allegory. An allegory is not real. We have to use our imagination. We have to imagine a bright lamp, solidly built in clear glass which is dependable which throws useful illumination so that we can see in the dark. That gives us an idea of what is Allah?s guidance. It does not mean that Allah actually shines a torchlight at anyone or that His ?light? actually comes from a lamp behind a glass set in a niche in a wall somewhere in the ?heavens?. There is no such thing.

Not so fast. We humans are almost there when it comes to lambda cdm model https//3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/2015/6-istheunivers.jpg

Amazing gymnastics and acrobatics we are getting with some of this generation of "Qoran" translators!
Qoran misguides as well as guides. It is a game of probability of whether the translator is guided or misguided if one relies on other than GOD Alone and their own effort to understand Qoran.
Much hard work and study is required,,
The student of Qoran will start to have doubts,nightmares,obstacles,distractions,multiple meanings,...etc Will one give up,follow others,persevere,go mad...The journey gets tougher and tougher...Some stop and give up,some keep changing loyalties,some make up stuff,some get even more confused...Some blame GOD for what they call "tales of old",some just persevere...

Well who will dare keep at it? How can one have confidence ?Will one stay sane?
GOD knows what will be made of Qoran next by its students! Does it matter? Who is right?Can Qoran ever be understood and followed properly?...
GOD bless.
Peace.

I believe there is a need for dialogue about how to approach the Quran. I know it happened before, but it was focused on the language only.

I have realized that some of the verses found in the Quran can be cracked by analyzing external signs. God tells us to do that anyways. But we have to be patient because we are not just there yet when it comes to science.

Regarding this biblical mullah website... I don't claim he is right or wrong, as I don't have time to dig into it, but I see that people tend to reject it simply because it goes against what they are previously taught and believe, which means nothing.

Well who will dare keep at it? How can one have confidence ?Will one stay sane?
GOD knows what will be made of Qoran next by its students! Does it matter? Who is right?Can Qoran ever be understood and followed properly?...
GOD bless.
Peace.

To call him liar though would be over-confident imho.
Peace

Doesn't he say its ok to eat pork?
Personally, I am not going to read the whims of every tom, dick or harry who may have mental issues.
Reading the Quran is far more valuable than the whims of who ever wants to be heard.

Salam
Ed