BUT, in the Quran there are points where the "ghayb" at least in part, are revealed to the Prophet (344), and apparently can relate to unknown/lost historal events, so ghayb doesn't necessarily have to do with the infinite. 1149 is another example.

Yes, everything manifests from Al Ghayb, the unseen. We come from the infinite to the finite. Everything begins from that same source where energy and matter are not formed.

Anyway, yes, the "ghayb" is revealed from time to time to others, but then it ceases to be "ghayb".

thanks for posting that wakas. actually, i realized too on reading further on the root that even though at one point it claimed that ghayb refers to that which is not perceived but can be mentally conceived, it also says that it can also refer to something that cannot be conceived. So basically, anything hidden whether conceived or not conceived.

salam idolfree,

Well i have to take it back now partially because i realize that ghayb can also refer to something that cannot be conceived.

BUT, in the Quran there are points where the "ghayb" at least in part, are revealed to the Prophet (344), and apparently can relate to unknown/lost historal events, so ghayb doesn't necessarily have to do with the infinite. 1149 is another example.

It may be that since the meaning of ghayb can be broad, you have to closely examine the context to exact the proper meanings. For example, in 23 because the context is for those people who want to succeed, it makes sense to me that ghayb at least in part be interpreted as the unseen results on one's actions. (If everyone could see the unseen detrimental or beneficial effects of their actions, the world would be very different!)

this obviously is a complex topic! again, as far as jinn being part of ghayb.. like i said, traditionalists will say yes.. but i dont think there's any support for that in the Quran, or linguistically. jinn means hidden from the eyes, but i think the word jinn emphasizes the quality of being hidden, whereas in ghayb, being hidden is a circumstance.

wassalam

Are the Jinn...of the ghaba or janna?

http//www.geocities.com/learnislamquran/GYB.htm

its been a while, hopefully youre doing well!

I am peaceful thank you, I hope peace is upon you as well D

Thanks for your interesting comments. Though the things you mention sound nice and I know you follow a philosophy of trying to link various religions... your meaning for ghayb is not substantiated from the Quran or from the Arabic language.

Unseen is not substantiated?

I'd like to see some proofs for your ideas though. It may generate some discussion.

I'll try to provide some examples in my next post.

Incidentally, be a little clearer about the term "perceive." I think you mean mentally conceived right? Perceive often is used specifically for perception i.e. sensory perception. Conceive more precisely means mental rather than physical.

Yes, thanks for the correction.

Remember the definition of ghayb I gave. it is something that can be mentally conceived but at that point is not physically perceived.

Please also provide some examples for your understanding as well. I would like to keep this debate going so we can find the proper understanding. I will try to post again tonight.

its been a while, hopefully youre doing well!

Thanks for your interesting comments. Though the things you mention sound nice and I know you follow a philosophy of trying to link various religions... your meaning for ghayb is not substantiated from the Quran or from the Arabic language.

I'd like to see some proofs for your ideas though. It may generate some discussion.

Incidentally, be a little clearer about the term "perceive." I think you mean mentally conceived right? Perceive often is used specifically for perception i.e. sensory perception. Conceive more precisely means mental rather than physical.

Remember the definition of ghayb I gave. it is something that can be mentally conceived but at that point is not physically perceived.

wassalam

The Ghayb is the unpercievable. When one meditates deeply (salaat) one can experience that there is a part of you that PERCIEVES things(thoughts/emotions/physical objects, etc) but THAT which PERCIEVES , CANNOT ITSELF be percieved. So it is IMPERCIEVEABLE, CONCEALED.

This is the state of NOTHINGNESS where Nothing Moves(Nirvana), or as the Chinese say (Wu Ji), or as the Kemetans say (Amen), etc.

Everything comes from this state of Energy?Matter that is NOT DIFFERENTIATED. It is only when we start to differentiate that we can PERCIEVE OBJECTS because they are not seperated(sects) from the WHOLE.

So Ghayb is that which cannot be percieved or differentiated.

Janna however is that which is COVERED/HIDDEN, but you can still differentiate amongst them. As was said above, THOUGHTS are OBJECTS because they can be PERCIEVED, although not SEEN VISABLY, like WIND.

sorry, i actually do not have access to Lane's. I believe br. Wakas does though. You might ask him.

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, ghayb, while hidden, will, at some point manifest, but janna, remains hidden and will not manifest?

Well kind of. What I am saying is that when you describe something as jinn, you are saying that part of the NATURE of that thing is to be hidden, say for example extinct species. Extinct species are called jinn precisely because they are extinct and now hidden. It is an INTRINSIC value.

Ghayb, for example, in the context of the fruits of labor, are hidden but that is a temporary phenomenon, and it will lator become manifest or shaahid... like when passing on a hill, you can't see what is beyond the hill, not because it is a NATURE of that thing to be hidden, but because it has not manifested yet. Being hidden is NOT an INSTRINSIC value in this case.

It's admittedly a subtle point, but if you bring together some verses where ghayb is used and jinn is used it can become more clear. Like i said, you asked a tough question!

So about the difference between janna and ghayb, my "feeling" is that ghayb is often used in the context of something that is hidden now but will be manifest later... and janna something used to describe a thing that is by nature hidden, i.e. the hidden aspect is something within the nature of that thing.

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, ghayb, while hidden, will, at some point manifest, but janna, remains hidden and will not manifest?

Do you think you can post the Lane's definition of ghayb abd janna? If you are familiar with scanning.

I understand your position and that you are stuck relying on English sources, which besides Lane's lexicon, are fairly limited. Problem with Lane is that its quite expensive.

But I'm sure you know my opinion of QD... and I'm sure he has many correct things in the book, but unfortunately this is another example of a mistake in QD.

The lexicons such as Lisaan ul Arab specifically say that ghayb INCLUDES that which you can think of but do not see... basically, the only condition is that it is not seen. The exact phrase in Lisaan is "maa ghaaba 3anil 3oyoon wa in kaana muhassalan fee quloob." That which is not seen but perceived by the heart/mind.

I suspect what AU Omar did in QD, is simply note the conventional meaning. And since conventionally, ghayb has come to mean the supernatural/infinite such as Allah, he has put in his own meaning of beyond cognizance.

Which leads me to believe that despite his claims he never actually used the classic lexicons, or perhaps just mostly ignored them in favor or pushing his opinions.

The negative effect of pushing this idea of ghayb, is that eemaan bil ghayb simply comes to mean unperceived supernatural beings... without any emphasis on the REAL world for which the Quran was revealed. Eemaan bil ghayb really means to believe in the fruitfulness of implementing the Quran message (because these fruits are not manifest immediately, it takes courage and patience).

So about the difference between janna and ghayb, my "feeling" is that ghayb is often used in the context of something that is hidden now but will be manifest later... and janna something used to describe a thing that is by nature hidden, i.e. the hidden aspect is something within the nature of that thing.

I'll have to think more about this though.

Thanks for your response.

Not being Arabic speaking, I have precious little resources at my disposal, however, I do have the Dictionary of the Quran by Omar, and regarding ghayb/ghaba, he writes

"That which is beyond the reach of human ordinary human perception and cognizance". pg. 412 D.

What I derive from this definition is that, the ghayb, can never be experienced by the human five senses nor can the human even imagine what it is, hence, it is truly invisible by its very nature.

Regarding Janna, Omar writes covered concealed hidden any hidden thing shield. Dictionary of the Quran, pg. 104.

It appears to me that, ghayb and janna, are almost indistinguishable, however, it is my sense that where ghayb can never be perceived or imagined, janna, while it may not be immediately apparent, can be perceived by the human senses and imagined, hence, by it's nature, is not invisible.

So, can it be said that...all that is of the ghayb is janna, but not all that is janna is of the ghayb?

Looking forward to your reply and the others.

I'd be happy to add my 2 cents, but I'd also be interested in what your thoughts were on this. You have asked a question which actually requires deep investigation of the roots.

But just a rule of thumb, I have yet to find 2 Arabic words that are EXACTLY the same meaning... they may be mostly the same, but each word is at least slightly different.

About the term jinn and the various words derived from that root, I believe it is a descriptive term (adjective) used to describe a variety of things in the Quran, from the aboriginal groups of humans, to past creatures who lived on the Earth, to the hidden nature of some forces of nature or even shaytaan. I won't go in depth on this one because I think it's been talked about quite a bit here already.

GHA-YA-BA

Primarily used to refer to things that cannot be seen. Ghaybun referes to when the ground slopes in such a way that the higher slope hides the lower slope (blind spot on a hill). It's also used to refer to when a jungle is so thick that you can't see the ground. Ghayyabaat refers to the roots of a tree that can't be seen.

When a horse races but hides some of its strength, it is called faras ghaaib, and when it reveals it, faras shaahid.

Of course, the conventional/traditional thought has been that ghayb refers to the supernatural unseen, such as jinn devil, heaven hell, Angels and Allah etc.

However, often ghayb is used in the Quran in the context of the unseen fruits of labor, and belief in the unseen fruits of implementing Islam is considered essential. For example, when a farmer plants a seed, he works through winter and summer, rain or shine... he does not get any immediate reward, and often he cannot see the progress being made. But it is his belief that if he continues, that the benefits shall eventually be reaped that he keeps working... and it is because of this that he succeeds. If he did not believe his work would help, he would not waste all that time and effort.

This meaning can be seen in the first few verses of the Quran.

21-5. This is a book within which is no doubt, and is a guidance to those who wish to protect themselves from the dangers/thorns on the road of life (muttaqeen).... Those who steadfastly believe in GHAYB (the unseen fruits of their labor), establish salah and spend from that which We have provided.... They are the ones who are on the true guidance and the ones who will SUCCEED.

This is essentially a summary of what the whole point of the Quran is, and what the model of success is.

So it appears to me that the context in which jinn and ghayb are used is different, but they do seem close in meaning. Also the lexicons seem to use both terms to refer to graves.. I'm still trying to figure out the subtle difference they might imply.

I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this.