JM, I asked YOU what difference it made to the meaning of the sign, if any. You still have not answered.

What difference in the meaning of the sign ?
I don't know.
I cannot know it, because I don't know what would be the meaning of the sign if walliya in falanuwalliyannaka would be seen as imperfect active instead of imperative.

Secondly, PRL consists of sources. It is not my own work. If you wish to debate with the sources of grammar, contact author of DofQ (Abdul Mannan Omar) islamusa.org or CofQ author (Professor Hanna E Kassis) kassis(at)unixg.ubc.ca / hek(at)interchange.ubc.ca

I knew it.
But it is a bit confusing to me that the explanations of Ahmed are not the same as the conclusions of these authors.

Also, I would like to point out, the grammar aspect of PRL will likely be the last part to be completed fully. After root occurrences (now done) and meanings (being done).
Wakas

That's good news !
StudyQuran is a very good tool, and I enjoy it a lot.
Many thanks for this great work.

Peace

JM, I asked YOU what difference it made to the meaning of the sign, if any. You still have not answered.

Secondly, PRL consists of sources. It is not my own work. If you wish to debate with the sources of grammar, contact author of DofQ (Abdul Mannan Omar) islamusa.org or CofQ author (Professor Hanna E Kassis) kassis(at)unixg.ubc.ca / hek(at)interchange.ubc.ca

Also, I would like to point out, the grammar aspect of PRL will likely be the last part to be completed fully. After root occurrences (now done) and meanings (being done).

Wakas

Who can develop/enhance/serve AlmasjidAlharam but their guardians ?

The true belivers

True, but who are the believers obeying to ?

All the prophets

Regarding the link posted by Wakas, as I stated, I really didn't read it, if Wakas feels he has something to discuss with me regarding this issue he is welcome to take the stand and present it in a simple and logical manner with some supporting verses from the Quran and if I have anything reasonable to say I will respond to it inshaallah, our objective should the truth as you stated brother

Peace

But Ahmed has convincingly argued that it ( walliya in falanuwalliyannaka) was the imperative.
Can you debate with him on this point ?

Can you explain what difference it would make? It seems imperfect as it is an action in the process of being done, its not like the receiver did it there and then, hence translations using "shall" before it.

In PRL, there is a difference between imperfect and imperative, and you have said it was in the imperfect.

falanuwalliyannaka = walli is in the impf. act.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68605#68605

But if it makes no difference to you, all right !

It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain Gods temples while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.

And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the Restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.

These verses show that the masjidalharam has to be guarded/protected/governed by Muhammad and the the believers.

Sorry bro, verse 917-19 starts by stating this sacred duty to all Masajid not AlmasjidAlharam alone, it just happen that AlmasjidAlharam is another masjid and our duty to protect and serve all of the Masajid

BTW "Yoammer" does not mean any of these guard/protect/govern , it simply means to develope, or to enhance, or to serve, but never guard/protect/govern

Who can develop/enhance/serve AlmasjidAlharam but their guardians ?

834 obviously says that all of the believers are protectors not just Mohammad

True, but who are the believers obeying to ?

O you who believe, obey God, and obey the messenger

So, you are stating that wala, walla, and tawalla are only one verb, in different tenses. Am I right ?

wala = past tense and also = the root

walla = past tense with a shada on second letter <> the root

tawalla = present tense

But I have read that a arabic verb can have several forms
FORM 1 it is the base form made up of the three root leters

yes and most likely = past tense about 99%

FORM 2 It is derived from the FORM 1 by doubling the second root letter

NEVER by letters, only by Tashkil "ie pronounciation only" the letters stay the same and a Shadda will be added on top of the second letter, not commonly used, its use is only when you refer an action by someone, it can't be about the self, and still means past tense it is just a stress in the action, nothing more and the tense stays the same

FORM 3 It is derived from the FORM 2 by adding or prefixing the "te" in front of the first root letter.
(source http//www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/index.htm)

It will just make it a present tense that's all

So, can we not say that wala is the form 1, walla is the form 2,

yes and both are past tense

and tawalla the form 5 ?

in this case it has to be Tawalli and it should be for a female use unless it was told to someone informing him/her directly that they doing this action

According to PRL, yatawallawna in is from the verb tawalla in the impefect tense.

sorry, it has to be from the root "Wa La Ya" the ta in front should not be there because it is only to inform who is talking about the action and if the talk was direct to a somone on perosn or someone on absence or a female saying the action about herself, in addition the double LL is only tashkil and not a physical and second L

543 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away yatawallawna. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

Peace be with you

So, you don't agree with Wakas and PRL.
(see http//www.studyquran.co.uk/25_WAW.htm, root Waw-Lam-Ya)

Could you have a debate with him, so that we can know the truth ?

Many thanks,

Peace

But Ahmed has convincingly argued that it ( walliya in falanuwalliyannaka) was the imperative.
Can you debate with him on this point ?

Can you explain what difference it would make? It seems imperfect as it is an action in the process of being done, its not like the receiver did it there and then, hence translations using "shall" before it.

About the meaning walla = "to set as protector/governor" ; is it not confirmed by Lane ?
Cf http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000314.pdf, part 2

Perhaps if it was the only meaning given, but it isn't. al-quran is the primary determinant of word-meanings.

Also, the meaning of "turn" is used for the surounding similar words, which also reduces the governor understanding. Not saying its impossible, but the case presented so far isn't great.

Wakas

Why not ???

Ok mate, you win but at least tell us with compelling reasons why it has to be done.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast (walyadribna) their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike (yadribna) with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

=> 1 verse, 1 verb (daraba), 2 meanings ("to cast" ans "to strike")

sure and as I stated before you win the argument in why not, in here the context clearly show us that there is two different actions while on the other verse it was the same action to the prophet and the believers

It will come in a few days insha allah.

Ok, take your time

It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain God?s temples while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.

And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the Restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.

These verses show that the masjidalharam has to be guarded/protected/governed by Muhammad and the the believers.

Sorry bro, verse 917-19 starts by stating this sacred duty to all Masajid not AlmasjidAlharam alone, it just happen that AlmasjidAlharam is another masjid and our duty to protect and serve all of the Masajid

BTW "Yoammer" does not mean any of these guard/protect/govern , it simply means to develope, or to enhance, or to serve, but never guard/protect/govern

834 obviously says that all of the believers are protectors not just Mohammad

So, you are stating that wala, walla, and tawalla are only one verb, in different tenses. Am I right ?

wala = past tense and also = the root

walla = past tense with a shada on second letter <> the root

tawalla = present tense

But I have read that a arabic verb can have several forms
FORM 1 it is the base form made up of the three root leters

yes and most likely = past tense about 99%

FORM 2 It is derived from the FORM 1 by doubling the second root letter

NEVER by letters, only by Tashkil "ie pronounciation only" the letters stay the same and a Shadda will be added on top of the second letter, not commonly used, its use is only when you refer an action by someone, it can't be about the self, and still means past tense it is just a stress in the action, nothing more and the tense stays the same

FORM 3 It is derived from the FORM 2 by adding or prefixing the "te" in front of the first root letter.
(source http//www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/index.htm)

It will just make it a present tense that's all

So, can we not say that wala is the form 1, walla is the form 2,

yes and both are past tense

and tawalla the form 5 ?

in this case it has to be Tawalli and it should be for a female use unless it was told to someone informing him/her directly that they doing this action

According to PRL, yatawallawna in is from the verb tawalla in the impefect tense.

sorry, it has to be from the root "Wa La Ya" the ta in front should not be there because it is only to inform who is talking about the action and if the talk was direct to a somone on perosn or someone on absence or a female saying the action about herself, in addition the double LL is only tashkil and not a physical and second L

543 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away yatawallawna. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

Do you disagree ?

not sure disagree on what?, yatawallawna clearly means "Turn Away" as understood from the Arabic verse, so i agree on the above translation

Peace be with you

I quoted what CofQ and DofQ (p621) state, both say it is in the imperfect active.

OK.
But Ahmed has convincingly argued that it ( walliya in falanuwalliyannaka) was the imperative.
Can you debate with him on this point ?

What do you (and Ahmed) think of the usage of the verb walla in ?

In 609 "tawallawhum" is likened to "tabarroohum/pious/kind/gentle" (Ba-Ra-Ra) & "tuqsitoo/equitable/just/righteous" (Qaf-Siin-Tay) in 608. This should help in translation.

I'm not sure about protector/supporter for 6129.

You argument about seems sound to me.
About the meaning walla = "to set as protector/governor" ; is it not confirmed by Lane ?
Cf http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000314.pdf, part 2

wala vb. (I) -
impf. act. 9123
Could you check ?
I do not see it.

yaloonakum mina alkuffari

Wakas

OK, thanks.

Peace

No.
I think waloo in fa waloo can only mean "to turn".

and why you take one meaning to this word and another meaning to the same word in thre SAME verse?

Why not ???

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast (walyadribna) their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike (yadribna) with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

=> 1 verse, 1 verb (daraba), 2 meanings ("to cast" ans "to strike")

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?

It will come in a few days insha allah.

Governor of the qiblah = the (main) center of devotion for muslims, symbol of abraham's way = masjidalharam.

Then Abraham should be the Governor, especially Mohammad was following him as well all of us follow Abraham, in addition Abraham was the one who built the Kaaba which is the main center of devotion for muslims, as well He was the one he chose the name Muslims for us, no one deserve to be a governor other than Abraham

The Quran told us that Mohammad is not a governor or any thing else but a mere human prophet like all the other prophets preceeded him including Abraham

Sorry, I can't see that Mohammad was described as a governor, but my note is this, Jesus was described using the SAME EXACT WORDS DESCRIBING MOHAMMAD

See .

i'm sorry, I could not see any inclination that Mohammad was appointed as a governer

It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain Gods temples while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.

And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the Restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.

These verses show that the masjidalharam has to be guarded/protected/governed by Muhammad and the the believers.

Juste one question, for my curiosity.
There are 2 other verbs from the same root wala, and tawalla.
Is there imperative form the same as walla ?

Thanks again
Peace

"To turn" = Wala or Walla = Root and Past Tense, some may put the double L in the english clone to express the shadda on the L in the arabic word,

For the present tense we need to add a Ya in front for males and a Ta for females

Towali or Towalli ( for females)

Yowali or Yowalli ( for males )

"to inform any one that you know they are doing this action" we need a Ta in front for males and females,

Towali or Towalli

So, you are stating that wala, walla, and tawalla are only one verb, in different tenses. Am I right ?

But I have read that a arabic verb can have several forms
FORM 1 it is the base form made up of the three root leters
FORM 2 It is derived from the FORM 1 by doubling the second root letter
FORM 5 It is derived from the FORM 2 by adding or prefixing the "te" in front of the first root letter.
(source http//www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/index.htm)

So, can we not say that wala is the form 1, walla is the form 2, and tawalla the form 5 ?

According to PRL, yatawallawna in is from the verb tawalla in the impefect tense.

543 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away yatawallawna. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

Do you disagree ?

"to inform any one that you will make him or others to do this action" we need a Oo in front

Oowalianaka or Oowallianaka (males)

Oowalianaki or Oowallianaki (females)

for both in a group

Oowalianako or Oowallianako

To order someone (single ) male or female

Wali or Walli

to

To order a group males or females

Waloo or Walloo

Peace

Very clear.
Many thanks again for your patience.

Peace

Are you sure it is the imperfect active ?
I don't recognise this tense here.

I quoted what CofQ and DofQ (p621) state, both say it is in the imperfect active.

What do you (and Ahmed) think of the usage of the verb walla in ?

In 609 "tawallawhum" is likened to "tabarroohum/pious/kind/gentle" (Ba-Ra-Ra) & "tuqsitoo/equitable/just/righteous" (Qaf-Siin-Tay) in 608. This should help in translation.

I'm not sure about protector/supporter for 6129.

wala vb. (I) -
impf. act. 9123
Could you check ?
I do not see it.

yaloonakum mina alkuffari

Wakas

No.
I think waloo in fa waloo can only mean "to turn".

and why you take one meaning to this word and another meaning to the same word in thre SAME verse?

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?

Governor of the qiblah = the (main) center of devotion for muslims, symbol of abraham's way = masjidalharam.

Then Abraham should be the Governor, especially Mohammad was following him as well all of us follow Abraham, in addition Abraham was the one who built the Kaaba which is the main center of devotion for muslims, as well He was the one he chose the name Muslims for us, no one deserve to be a governor other than Abraham

The Quran told us that Mohammad is not a governor or any thing else but a mere human prophet like all the other prophets preceeded him including Abraham

"Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. "

(144)

Sorry, I can't see that Mohammad was described as a governor, but my note is this, Jesus was described using the SAME EXACT WORDS DESCRIBING MOHAMMAD

"The Messiah, son of Mary, is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! "

(75)

See .

i'm sorry, I could not see any inclination that Mohammad was appointed as a governer

Juste one question, for my curiosity.
There are 2 other verbs from the same root wala, and tawalla.
Is there imperative form the same as walla ?

Thanks again
Peace

"To turn" = Wala or Walla = Root and Past Tense, some may put the double L in the english clone to express the shadda on the L in the arabic word,

For the present tense we need to add a Ya in front for males and a Ta for females

Towali or Towalli ( for females)

Yowali or Yowalli ( for males )

"to inform any one that you know they are doing this action" we need a Ta in front for males and females,

Towali or Towalli

"to inform any one that you will make him or others to do this action" we need a Oo in front

Oowalianaka or Oowallianaka (males)

Oowalianaki or Oowallianaki (females)

for both in a group

Oowalianako or Oowallianako

To order someone (single ) male or female

Wali or Walli

to

To order a group males or females

Waloo or Walloo

peace

Sorry I haven't because I'm a native Arabic speaker and I hardly refer to this flawed method of understanding Arabic, no offence to anyone but I agree that is one of the ways of understanding the meaning of an individual word outside a context. For me, I hardly refer to the root, most native Arabic speakers will understand most of the Arabic words within a context without referring to the root, actually i hardly did this in my life even with other Arabic books that have content for average humans. And I believe the Quran is a book for an average human. I dont need rocket science to understand the Quran.

In that case, why were you trying to prove something to me about the meaning of the word qibla with the word qubul, which is another word sharing the same root Qaf-Ba-Lam ?

Anyway, here is PRL about qibla

Qaf-Ba-Lam = to accept/admit/receive/agree, meet anyone, to face/encounter someone/something, advance/approach, correspond, counteract/compare/requite/compensate, the front part (1226), accept with approval, show favour.
qablu - before/formerly,
qubulun - the fore-part, face to face, before, plural of qabilum,
qibalun - power, side, part,
qiblah - towards, in the direction of, facing, alongside,
qiblatun - anything before, opposite, the point in the direction of which prayer is performed, the Ka'bah at Makkah, a place of worship,
qabulun - favourable reception, gracious acceptance,
qabilun - tribe, host, plural qabilatun,
qabailun - tribe,
aqbala - to come near, draw near, approach, turn towards, rush upon,
taqabbala - to accept,
mutaqabilun - opposite to, facing one another,
mustaqbilun - proceeding towards, heading towards.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/16_QAF.htm

1. You say " The quran qualifies the hadith". Could you quote the verse which prove that ?

Not really explicitly as such, but

Could you paste your explanations in a new thread into the hadith section of the board ?

The verse can easily be understood that it means WHEREVER YOU ARE on earth, ie. in a different town or a different country, this so easy for an average person to understand it this way , hence someone on a point on earth that is exactly opposite to the Kaaba can pray in two different directions that are 180 degrees apart,

Yes, but definitely the verses does not say "Wherever you are, while praying".

1. Guide us (on to) As-Sirat-al-Mustaqima (The permanent and eternal Path)
   Mustaqeem = Undeviating = Straight = Balanced = Even

I agree that the Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqim means the straight path but where you got permanent from?

Surely, those who have rejected the Reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honourable Scripture. No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. What is being said to you is the same that was said to the messengers before you.

Peace

as I stated the word has two menaings, "To turn" or "To rule" or "To Guard"

in the two verse you posted it is clearly the "To guard" meaning

i.e. DO NOT TAKE THEM AS PROTECTORS (Guardians)

br, the owrd has two meanings and there hnudreds of arabic words that have two menings possibly three menings

peace

Right, but when a word is said in a dictionary to have several meaning, it is good to check in the quran if these meanings are used (because a meaning of a word can be post-quranic).
That is what I have done.

No.
I think waloo in fa waloo can only mean "to turn".

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?

Governor of the qiblah = the (main) center of devotion for muslims, symbol of abraham's way = masjidalharam.
See .

also the tense of Walia in "LeOwalianaka" is not releveant because it is an ORDER that is why it must have "Oo" but because Allah uses the plurer it becomes "No" in this case the root will be used and a stress "Shadda" on the second letter will be added

the root is

Wa La Ya

to make it an order is by adding the "No" and the Stress "Shadda" on the second letter in the root which is "La" it should become "No Wa LLa Ya", that is why i stated the tense is not important when it comes to "to verbly order someone", in fact it is called in the arabic grammer "Fiel Amr" ie. "Order Verb"

peace

OK, thanks, very clear...

Juste one question, for my curiosity.
There are 2 other verbs from the same root wala, and tawalla.
Is there imperative form the same as walla ?

Thanks again
Peace

as I stated the word has two menaings, "To turn" or "To rule" or "To Guard"

in the two verse you posted it is clearly the "To guard" meaning

i.e. DO NOT TAKE THEM AS PROTECTORS (Guardians)

br, the owrd has two meanings and there hnudreds of arabic words that have two menings possibly three menings

peace

falanuwalliyannaka = walli is in the impf. act.

Are you sure it is the imperfect active ?
I don't recognise this tense here.

Thus, do any of the other occurrences mean "governor"?

What do you (and Ahmed) think of the usage of the verb walla in ?

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (tawallawhum) (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them( tawallahum) (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Can it not be translated in as "To set yourself as protector" = "to protect" ?
Do you agree there is no ila = "to", making it hard to translate it by "turn to" ?

And in ?

Thus do we make the wrong-doers turn to (wallee) each other, because of what they earn.

Above is the translation of YusufAli, but free-minds renders it as "make as supporters", and Pickthal as "let have power".

Does it not prove that there are some verses in the quran where walla can be translated as "To set as protector/supporter/governor (walliy)" ?

wala vb. (I) -
impf. act. 9123

Could you check ?
I do not see it.

Peace & thanks

Peace

not really according to me rather according to the arabic language vocabulary, hence the context is very imporant to determine the meaning of a multi meaning words

also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?

also the tense of Walia in "LeOwalianaka" is not releveant because it is an ORDER that is why it must have "Oo" but because Allah uses the plurer it becomes "No" in this case the root will be used and a stress "Shadda" on the second letter will be added

the root is

Wa La Ya

to make it an order is by adding the "No" and the Stress "Shadda" on the second letter in the root which is "La" it should become "No Wa LLa Ya", that is why i stated the tense is not important when it comes to "to verbly order someone", in fact it is called in the arabic grammer "Fiel Amr" ie. "Order Verb"

peace

Apologies, I cut&pasted the wrong part, as time was brief and I was doing it by memory. You may wish to correct your original post (as it says 2145).

grammar

impf. = imperfect = action in the process of being done
act. = active = active verb, i.e. the subject acts
imperative = "mood", order or command

falanuwalliyannaka = walli is in the impf. act.

Thus, do any of the other occurrences mean "governor"?

walla vb. (II) -

perf. act. 2142, 925, 957, 1746, 1818, 2710, 2780, 2831, 3052, 317, 4629, 4822

impf. act. 2115, 2144, 2177, 311, 4115, 6129, 815, 816, 2157, 3315, 4033, 5445, 5912

impv. 2144, 2144, 2149, 2150, 2150

pcple. act. 2148

Thus far, I have no opinion on KO's translation. I have not studied it, sorry.

Wakas

1. Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
   Instead of the verb walla ?

simply because "Governor" means "Waali", can you see the double "a"?

how come a verb = a noun in the meaning? as well in all languages we have words that have double meaning and hence this is the main reason that root method is very flawed to be a standarised method to understand all Arabic vocabularies

but I agree that the verb also means to rule, another case of double meaning to the same word

OK, so, according to you, walla in lanuwalliyannaka can mean "turn" as well as "rule".

Yes another question...
I what tense is the verb walla in walliya ?

Thanks

Sorry, but I don't understand Nowalianaka.
Is it alanuwalliyannaka ?

the word alone should be "walia" but because it was said by someone as an action to happen to that one by the person saying it then we need "Oo" at the front hence it should be "Oowalia", but Allah uses the plurer to refer to Himeslf so the "Oo" will be "No", ie, the word becomes "Nowalia"

and because it was a future event or a conequence to something, the "Le" in front is required so it becomes "Le Nowalia" , and because it was directed to someone "Mohammad" we need the "naka" at the end, hence the whole word is

Le Nowalia Naka = Lenowlianaka

OK, I understand now... Many thanks...

If yes...

1. Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
   Instead of the verb walla ?

simply because "Governor" means "Waali", can you see the double "a"?

how come a verb = a noun in the meaning? as well in all languages we have words that have double meaning and hence this is the main reason that root method is very flawed to be a standarised method to understand all Arabic vocabularies

but I agree that the verb also means to rule, another case of double meaning to the same word

OK, so, according to you, walla in lanuwalliyannaka can mean "turn" as well as "rule".

also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

2. Does the verb walla mean only "to turn" ?
   Or does it mean "to appoint as a governor" too ?

It means to turn and it means to rule, the context is major factor to determine the meaning as long as it does not cause any contradiction with another area in the Quran, this is how the Quran explain itself

I agree.

Peace

I have had a look at PRL, but I am still too weak in arabic to properly understand Lane's lexicon, that's why this has not answered my question.

I was not really referring to Lane, PRL is much more than that. What I was referring to was the list of all the occurrences of the root you are questioning. It shows every single occurrence of the exact same form, I will cut&paste it for you

walla vb. (II) -

perf. act. 2142, 925, 957, 1746, 1818, 2710, 2780, 2831, 3052, 317, 4629, 4822

Here is what I find about walla in

walla vb. (II) -
impf. act. 2115, 2144, 2177, 311, 4115, 6129, 815, 816, 2157, 3315, 4033, 5445, 5912
impv. 2144, 2144, 2149, 2150, 2150

What is " impf. act." ? Imperfect active ?
And "impv." ?

I see walla is used 2 times in
fawalli wajhakashatra almasjidi alharami = " Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque"
fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu = " turn your faces in that direction"

So, should I conclude that the 3rd occurence of this root in the verse, in falanuwalliyannaka is from the verb walla in the imperfect active tense ?

Then, what do you think of the claim of Kamal Omar that the correct (according to arabic grammar as well to context) translation of falanuwalliyannaka is "We shall appoint you the governor", and not " We Shall turn thee" ?

Peace

Wakas

well, I accept your better put explanation

peace

I have had a look at PRL, but I am still too weak in arabic to properly understand Lane's lexicon, that's why this has not answered my question.

I was not really referring to Lane, PRL is much more than that. What I was referring to was the list of all the occurrences of the root you are questioning. It shows every single occurrence of the exact same form, I will cut&paste it for you

walla vb. (II) -

perf. act. 2142, 925, 957, 1746, 1818, 2710, 2780, 2831, 3052, 317, 4629, 4822

Thus, if you can find another occurrence of the same form that means "governor" it will strengthen the case for it being "governor". If you cannot, it will weaken the case for it being "governor" and this will mean that in 2142 it is the only occurrence of that form that means "governor", possible, but less likely.

Sorry I haven't because I'm a native Arabic speaker and I hardly refer to this flawed method of understanding Arabic

Considering the root meanings is not a flawed method of understanding the root or a word. It is only flawed if thats the only method you use. It is simply one avenue of approach.

Wakas

Sorry, but I don't understand Nowalianaka.
Is it alanuwalliyannaka ?

the word alone should be "walia" but because it was said by someone as an action to happen to that one by the person saying it then we need "Oo" at the front hence it should be "Oowalia", but Allah uses the plurer to refer to Himeslf so the "Oo" will be "No", ie, the word becomes "Nowalia"

and because it was a future event or a conequence to something, the "Le" in front is required so it becomes "Le Nowalia" , and because it was directed to someone "Mohammad" we need the "naka" at the end, hence the whole word is

Le Nowalia Naka = Lenowlianaka

If yes...

1. Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
   Instead of the verb walla ?

simply because "Governor" means "Waali", can you see the double "a"?

how come a verb = a noun in the meaning? as well in all languages we have words that have double meaning and hence this is the main reason that root method is very flawed to be a standarised method to understand all Arabic vocabularies

but I agree that the verb also means to rule, another case of double meaning to the same word

also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governers or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote

2. Does the verb walla mean only "to turn" ?
   Or does it mean "to appoint as a governor" too ?

It means to turn and it means to rule, the context is major factor to determine the meaning as long as it does not cause any contradiction with another area in the Quran, this is how the Quran explain itself

I still have to look at the link

Peace be with you

Peace

Sure I did, I believe you want to understand the meaning of verse 2145 and I did break it up and explained every bit to the best of my knowledge, but I will try to do it again for you, however on the other hand you are leaning to follow another meaning for the verse, possibly basing it on a symbolism concept, I found the concept you are leaning to lack a lot of merit regarding clarity and ease of understanding, if this symbolism concept is true then this on its own merit should put the Quran in fault because the Quran says about itself that IT IS CLEAR AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND

Have you read PRL, root Qaf-Ba-lam ?

Sorry I haven't because I'm a native Arabic speaker and I hardly refer to this flawed method of understanding Arabic, no offence to anyone but I agree that is one of the ways of understanding the meaning of an individual word outside a context. For me, I hardly refer to the root, most native Arabic speakers will understand most of the Arabic words within a context without referring to the root, actually i hardly did this in my life even with other Arabic books that have content for average humans. And I believe the Quran is a book for an average human. I don?t need rocket science to understand the Quran.

1. You say " The quran qualifies the hadith". Could you quote the verse which prove that ?

Not really explicitly as such, but there are verses that clearly suggest the prophet mission was not only to deliver the Quran, but to "clear and explain issues inside", while I have to say that I can?t prove someone said whatever 1400 years ago or even 50 years ago or any time as long as I didn?t hear it myself, but what I can do is this, I can use the Quran to qualify the hadith using my brain, then I accept whatever from as a history record and further information using my heart, here is a verse for the Quran alone ?no hadith people? please explain to me how come Allah says this in the Quran

?And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them (explain) that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.?

(64)

-> Above we see Allah telling us that Mohammad had another mission in addition to ?Deliver the book?, and it is clearly seen in the Arabic verse ? ?, ie. ?Except to Explain to them?, the Ta in the word ? ?, pronounced as ?LeTobbain? is referring to the prophet and NOT THE QURAN, if it is referring to the Quran IT MUST BE A Ya like this ?? , pronounced ?LeYobbain?, an example is like this

?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you (mercifully), and Allah is Knowing, Wise.?

(26)

Hence if Allah said to His prophet that He the Quran for him to explain what was sent in what they differ ?The Quran?, ? ?, then clearly the prophet had another mission in addition to delivery, and because the explanation was ASSOCIATED to the Quran only as seen from 1664, then we can use the Quran to qualify what know about the hadith

For example there is a hadith about the prophet been described as a man who was given the sexual power of 30 to 40 men or something like this, and clearly this has nothing to do with the Quran, God, and the path to Him, consequently it should be thrown in the rubbish bin.

You see how the Quran can qualify the hadith, very easy indeed.

2. I don't consider the ahadith to be a reliable way to know history.

Neither do I, but it seems "Talking" is the common way to know history, I use my mind to filter the crap out of the hadith and accept the rest as a mere history record that my heart feel comfortable to accept, like accepting that someone has discovered America for example

I don't understand your point here, so you are saying if I'm pissing in the toilet I should direct my face to a specific direction?, of course it has to mean when we pray or at least when we remember Allah, I will take it like that anyway but you are free to take as you wish

If you believe in hadith, the annwser shall be "yes" http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/014.mmt.html#014.14.2.3

I don?t believe in the hadith as such, rather a mere history record, now that hadith regarding facing whatever, or sitting down/standing up while facing something is a whole load of rubbish and don?t make any sense because the Quran never talked about how we should piss from the first place yet to need an explanation to it from the prophet, you see how the Quran can easily be used to qualify the haidth, but if the sunni sect use verse 2145 to suggest that ?whatever you do? you should face the kaaba again is non sense because simply the verse never said ?WHATEVER YOU DO?, the verse said ?WHEREVER YOU ARE?, now they took this as being in the toilet, possibly while being on bed and sure when they are dead but I?m not sure how they can achieve this while driving a car?, how about riding a camel?, man what a load of non sense.

The verse can easily be understood that it means WHEREVER YOU ARE on earth, ie. in a different town or a different country, this so easy for an average person to understand it this way , hence someone on a point on earth that is exactly opposite to the Kaaba can pray in two different directions that are 180 degrees apart,

Anyway, you should understand the word "face" (wahj) in the figurative sense, to designate the self.
Like in verse , and in many other ones..

I believe you mean ?Wajh?, but I stated that I accept it is figurative and mean the whole person but again from the front ?the face side? not from the back. Also the heart was used to refer to the self in a figurative manner, the point is "Qiblah" means a direction in front of us or in front of our face, ie. we are facing it. now we need a point to know where we face to fully define a Qiblah.

1. Guide us (on to) As-Sirat-al-Mustaqima (The permanent and eternal Path)
   Mustaqeem = Undeviating = Straight = Balanced = Even

I agree that the Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqim means the straight path but where you got permanent from?

2. The kaabah has always been the main center of devotion of the muslims (those who follow the creed of Abraham). It has never changed, and it has never been Jerusalem.

That is ok for me to accept for sure, however the Arabic verse suggest that the Qiblah was changed to another location or at least there was no Qiblah at all and the prophet wanted the believers to pray facing the Kaabah, I also have no problem accepting that as well if compelling evidences provided. The point is, I pray facing the Kaaba, but as I said earlier I?m still reading a huge article regarding that verse I think it was by Layth

Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.? The first sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds. In it are clear signs the place of Abraham.

Peace

Yes but the point is the verse never suggested that when it was established that we should point to it when we are far away from it, possibly the people were flawed and invented that habit of pointing to the Aqsa Mosque and Mohammad came with the help of Allah to demolish it, sure it is quite possible

Peace