I'm glad to see this thread get back on track. My apologies for contributing to it's "derailment".

Peace,
Tay

Regarding 1087, I am not 100% sure of the verse. If we take Egypt as the actual place, then to me it speaks on the Wisdom that came from this place in history. If it is not literally Egypt, then we need to know what it means. Further, we need to investigate the difference between House and the "tabawwaa " which is translated sometimes as house or residence.

Peace idol free

Can we use the same interpretation of Qibla for the following verses.

2 142
Yusuf Ali The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

Yes. The word "qibla" only means direction of focus. Regarding the above verse, all humans are born focused on the external world, at some point in thier spiritual development, just like our examples, we have to change our focus from the outer material world to the inner metaphysical world which controls the outer world. We have to start dealing with al ghayb (the unseen) and the hidden(al jinn). Remember the God says that It does not change the condition of a people until they change what is IN thier spirits(nafs). Facing an external structure is dismissed with teh statement that to The God belongs East and West (all points).

2 143
Yusuf Ali Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced that ye might be witnesses over the nations and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness Most Merciful.

Again, all of mankind starts out focused on the external world, that is the TEST to see who will follow the MESSAGE of the inner journey, or remain on the path of shayteen.

2 144
Yusuf Ali We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. The people of the book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.

This verse has already been discussed, but I just want to give my understanding of "al masjid al haraam". Mankind serves as the God's vehicle of expression on Earth. Therefore we must be FREE from compulsion. However some people do not realize that it is a freedom through restrictions. Without restrictions this freedom could be used for wickedness. Al masjid al haraam means "the place of hearing and obeying the restrictions". So the verse means that AT ALL TIMES, our focus in life should be on manifesting the character of the God!!! Powerful message this is! Unfortunately it is too heavy for many people who would rather just sin and sin then seek forgiveness from some type of savior. No, we were created to SERVE the God as its vehicle of righteousness in the world, not to cause havoc al over the earth then beg forgiveness.

2 145
Yusuf Ali Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not follow thy Qiblah; nor art thou going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong.

This verse just shows how most people are focused on different objectives, money, opposite gender, children, intoxicants, etc.

You can bring one all of the external signs, but change does not take place in anyone until they make corrections WITHIN thier spirit(nafs). They are ultimately responsible.

2 146
Yusuf Ali The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.

Yes, the universe is right in front of us all "people of the book(universe)" verifying each and every statement of truth at every second. For example, someone says "dont smoke, it is bad for you", and the people of this universe can see universal law working every single day verifying this fact, but many try to conceal this truth to either make profit or indulge in a conditioning that has them enslaved.

Also,

What is the verse which says to turn towards the Qiblah to do Salat , I could not find it.
(I guess I have seen it, but now I am not sure)

We are not told to face any direction for "salaat", so there will not be any such verse to find. )

I loved this interpretation of the story of Moses when you posted it along with the help of bro arnoldyasin explaining some parts I couldn't get around at first. May God increase you both in knowledge!

And you as well, thank you for the kind words. )

Since there has been enough heated debate as to whether this verse can be taken as an allegory, I'll just leave it aside so as not to offend anyone's strong convictions on this issue.

Respected.

IF1
We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

S2S
If I'm not mistaken, I think you are referring to

Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

This is a very perceptive interpretation of the issue of "qibla" but how does one turn one's face to "within"?

When we ponder on this verse, we have to ask ourselves the question, can we physically face in the direction of a physical stucture AT ALL TIMES, WHEREVER WE ARE? (caps for emphasis only). Since we cannot we have to look at the allegorical side. Without dragging it out, to "face" the resticted masjid is to have the CHARACTER of the "restricted masjid". Where ever we are we are to maintain this character. The face is what helps one determine another persons nature, for example when someone is frowning or crying is different from one who is smiling or laughing. Just give it some thought while reading all related verses.

So turning our face within is to say that we EMULATE the God's attributes which are within us, not imitate faulty humans outside of us. Also, to add more to this, did you know that the origin of people looking to the sky for God is due to astrology. It is true that the heavens influence our behavior, but the test of life is to not be compeleed by the compelling forces of life but to transcend them and live God-like, manifestig the God's attributes both in thoughts(jinn) and actions(insaan), and that is how jinn and man SERVE the God, but being Its vehicle of expression.

As the masjid al-haram means restriction place of prostration, which refers to any place where one bows to the laws of the Quran. So this also refers to the mind as this also has to do sujood for Allah's laws. Here i wrote a little thing on this concept

Can we use the same meaning for every place in the Quraan where masjid al haram occurs.

Can you explain the wrapped within part more since I did not understand properly. Thank you.

Yes this verse, but i don't believe salaat means bond/commitment/contact-method in every verse as it also refers to following the Quran(see how QXP translates it). Also this one is not sure to really connect qibla with salaat or even a physical direction. As it looks here more that they were inside the houses, and not far away from it. Also, it can say more that the houses should be the focus(qibla) on from the people of Moses, AND they should do salaat. So that these two are seperated. More research should be done on this. That people should stand the same way is already clear from 4102, where they ordered to stand together with the prophet and prostrate, which for me sounds logical that all faced the same direction.

1087Transliteration Waawhayna ila moosa waakheehi an tabawwaa liqawmikuma bimisra buyootan waijAAaloo buyootakum qiblatan waaqeemoo alssalata wabashshiri almu/mineena

Literal And We inspired/transmitted to Moses and his brother that you (B) reside/establish houses/homes to your (B)'s nation by a city/border/region/Egypt, and make your houses/homes direction, and keep up the prayers, and announce good news (to) the believers.

Yusuf Ali We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

Pickthal And We inspired Moses and his brother, (saying) Appoint houses for your people in Egypt and make your houses oratories, and establish worship. And give good news to the believers.

Arberry And We revealed to Moses and his brother, 'Take you, for your people, in Egypt certain houses; and make your houses a direction for men to pray to; and perform the prayer; and do thou give good tidings to the believers.'

Shakir And We revealed to Musa and his brother, saying Take for your people houses to abide in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and keep up prayer and give good news to the believers.

Sarwar We sent a revelation to Moses and his brother to build houses for their people in the Pharaoh's town and to build them facing one another. (We told him) that therein they should pray and that Moses should give the glad news (of God's mercy) to the faithful ones.

Khalifa We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Contact Prayers (Salat). Give good news to the believers."

Hilali/Khan And We inspired Moosa (Moses) and his brother (saying) "Take dwellings for your people in Egypt, and make your dwellings as places for your worship, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give glad tidings to the believers."

H/K/Saheeh And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and make your houses qiblah and establish prayer and give good tidings to the believers."

Malik We revealed Our will to Moses and his brother, saying "Take your people to dwell in Egypt, and make your houses as your Qiblah (places of worship) and establish Salah and give good news to the believers!"

QXP We commanded Moses and his brother, "Maintain your homes in Egypt, and turn them into places of worship to remember God. Establish the Commandments in your lives and give good news to the believers."

Maulana Ali And We revealed to Moses and His brother Take for your people houses to abide in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and keep up prayer. And give good news to the believers.

Free Minds And We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the contact-method. And give good news to the believers."

Qaribullah We revealed to Moses and his brother 'Take certain houses for your people in Egypt. Make your houses a direction (for pray); establish the prayer; and give glad tidings to the believers. '

George Sale And We spake by inspiration unto Moses and his brother, saying, provide habitations for your people in Egypt, and make your houses a place of worship, and be constant at prayer; and bear good news unto the true believers.

JM Rodwell Then thus revealed we to Moses and to his brother "Provide houses for your people in Egypt, and in your houses make a Kebla, and observe prayer and proclaim good tidings to the believers."

Asad And did We inspire Moses and his brother "Set aside for your people some houses in the city, and , `Turn your houses into places of worship,'?' and be constant in prayer!' And give thou the glad tiding to all believers."

Peace idol free

Can we use the same interpretation of Qibla for the following verses.

2 142
Yusuf Ali The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

2 143
Yusuf Ali Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced that ye might be witnesses over the nations and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness Most Merciful.

2 144
Yusuf Ali We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. The people of the book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.

2 145
Yusuf Ali Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not follow thy Qiblah; nor art thou going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong.

2 146
Yusuf Ali The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.

Also,

What is the verse which says to turn towards the Qiblah to do Salat , I could not find it.
(I guess I have seen it, but now I am not sure)

As the masjid al-haram means restriction place of prostration, which refers to any place where one bows to the laws of the Quran. So this also refers to the mind as this also has to do sujood for Allah's laws. Here i wrote a little thing on this concept

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6019.msg92488#msg92488

So this is also 'wrapped within', as also valley refers to a narrow space, as that you can only see what is inside the valley when you stand inside it.

I loved this interpretation of the story of Moses when you posted it along with the help of bro arnoldyasin explaining some parts I couldn't get around at first. May God increase you both in knowledge!

Since there has been enough heated debate as to whether this verse can be taken as an allegory, I'll just leave it aside so as not to offend anyone's strong convictions on this issue.

We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you are referring to

Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

This is a very perceptive interpretation of the issue of "qibla" but how does one turn one's face to "within"?

Peace all

Musa removed his shoes because the journey is within "tawa".

"We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

it seems i got mixed up between you and Arnold, however you are sort of on the same approach which is making the verses a symbol if it does not make sense to the human sense and totally ignoring that the one who is saying the story is Allah and He telling us about affairs that happened between Him and His messengers

Brother, for the last time, I am not limiting or ignoring Allah's all-mighty abilities by calling something symbolic. In fact, I am doing exactly the opposite. By understanding that rocks and gases do not have vocal chords or mouths, I readily admit that they do not speak, but that Allah chose these words to describe a form of communication that we cannot understand. This is called symbolic, and there's no negative association to it.

Peace be upon you,
Tay

peace mate

am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

I never mentioned anything about Moses or his shoes.

ok, i'm sorry, it seems i got mixed up between you and Arnold, however you are sort of on the same approach which is making the verses a symbol if it does not make sense to the human sense and totally ignoring that the one who is saying the story is Allah and He telling us about affairs that happened between Him and His messengers

regadless of the lessons learnt from the story told, as long as Allah didn't say that it was a metaphor then saying it is a metaphor on behalf of Allah is exactly what 1674 is warning us from doing

i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

God gave you eyes and ears and a brain. Have you ever seen a rock speak?

no i have not, but what is the relevence of your question?

do you mean the earth is a rock and can't talk?

Does a rock speaking make any sense to you?

if Allah wants the rock to speak for a specific circumsances then He told me about it later, for God sake yeh it will make great sense to me, Allah told me in the Quran numerous times "Ina Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir", "Allah is able to do anything"

I'm sorry bro, but I am not trying to make this symbolic. It is symbolic.

I'm sorry bro what you are proposing is a CLEAR CUT LIE because Allah never said it is symbolic, you are only following and promoting conjecrtures and lies, sorry again

It seems that to you, if you admit that it is symbolic, it's equivalent to something terrible.

not really if I say it is symbolic that it will be terrible, what is terrible and clear cut blasphemy is to say things on Allah behalf without being authored to do as such and without Him suggesting that what He said is as such

I respect that and will carry this dialogue no further.

respect is mutual here, if my words are a bit harsh, then I'm sorry, I'm implementing the method of the Quran to warn all humanity

Peace be upon you brother,
Tay

Take care man

am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

I never mentioned anything about Moses or his shoes.

i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

God gave you eyes and ears and a brain. Have you ever seen a rock speak? Does a rock speaking make any sense to you? I'm sorry bro, but I am not trying to make this symbolic. It is symbolic. It seems that to you, if you admit that it is symbolic, it's equivalent to something terrible. I respect that and will carry this dialogue no further.

Peace be upon you brother,
Tay

Peace man

I'm not trying to manipulate anything. Here is your quote, verbatim

Thanks, but again please dont try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end and used a totally different method of communication, ...

Ok. So, you say "they may have", or maybe you mean "they definitely do", or maybe you mean, "more often than not", whatever. It's irrelevant. You're focusing on the wrong things bro.

am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

The bottom line... do you believe that gases speak in any spoken language, ie, with words, yes or no?

i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

If yes, then more power to you.

I'm 100% sure about the heaven and earth but I only believe that anything that is created can speak the way it was designed to do so

If no, then the ayah is symbolic, by the very definition of the word "symbolic".

I didn't answer "Yes or "No", any answer is nothing but conjecture because Allah didn't specifically say that He talked to the gases, He only said that He talked to the heaven and earth in the verse, if you want to break the heaven down to its celestical objects then fine you can do that, I won't because I don't try to prove Allah words, I take it for granted

As for your question, I answered it the first time you asked me.

Ok, it seems OI missed it, i will try to find it

Peace,
Tay

Salam

I'm not trying to manipulate anything. Here is your quote, verbatim

Thanks, but again please don?t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ? and used a totally different method of communication?, ...

Ok. So, you say "they may have", or maybe you mean "they definitely do", or maybe you mean, "more often than not", whatever. It's irrelevant. You're focusing on the wrong things bro.

The bottom line... do you believe that gases speak in any spoken language, ie, with words, yes or no?

If yes, then more power to you.
If no, then the ayah is symbolic, by the very definition of the word "symbolic".

As for your question, I answered it the first time you asked me.

Peace,
Tay

the definition of speak
To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.

This definition apply to humans and animals, and possibly other creatures on earth, it does not apply to Allah if you don't mind

unless you prove to me that it does apply to Allah

frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

So Ahmed,
you can either believe that they actually talked using human words, or it is a symbol for a method of communication humans don't understand or cannot be explained in simple words.

yep and I won't speculate or promote any conjectures regarding what method of communication they used, simply I don't know, but you guys seems to know a lot of things, oh yeh 1736 made you know a alot, Haha

cheers

the definition of speak
To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.

frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

now if you can see "frankly they may", then good

"Case is closed"

So Ahmed,
you can either believe that they actually talked using human words, or it is a symbol for a method of communication humans don't understand or cannot be explained in simple words.

Are you going to answer my question or not?, it seems that it is me who answers questions all the time, here is my querstion again for the record

please, do you think 1674 is connected to 1675 & 1676?

before you give an answer, let me remind you with the start of each one

1674 "Fa La Taddribo Lillah Alamathal..."

1675 "Daraba Allahu Mathalan..."

1676 "Wa Daraba Allahu Mathalan..."

Cheers

but again please dont try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end and used a totally different method of communication, now for you to consider that the only way of talking is pushing the air through the throats, then you have limited the ability of Allah and the way He can talk and the ways He can make His creatures talk, for me anything is possible when it comes to the Creator, i.e. He can produce talks without having throats from the first place.

I work with what you give me. And what you gave me was, in your words, "and used a totally different method of communication". The reality is, the qur'an does not tell you that they used a totally different method. This is what you extracted from the text by using your mind.

So, the text says "they talked".
Ahmed says, "they used a totally different method of communication".

Therefore, Ahmed takes the text as symbolic of something else.

Case closed.

Peace,
Tay

Peace bro

For the second time I see that you try to manipulate what I said, here it is again for the record

frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

now if you can see "frankly they may", then good

"Case is closed"

cheers

i agree with Tay.

Also, a "parable" is any story with a moral or lesson. It doesn't have to be symbolic (but the fact is that to learn any kind of lesson from something, we have to look at it symbolically.)
So it'll be helpful if someone could give me the arabic word for parable in the quran and it's literal meanings. Or at least the word.

Pahroah spoke to moses . Did he speak in Arabic. Did Adam, Noah , Abraham, Jesus, and many other figures from the past and different regions and countries speak in Arabic. C?mon Tay this is the Arabic translation of the conversations.

Correct. These were people, and people speak. But do gases speak? Does the earth speak?

If some one says a computer speaks/communicates with another computer/equipment/modem today, it is no big deal. All these stuff made of
Metals and plastic communicating with each other and also with man

Exactly. The word "speak" is symbolic of another form of communication. I'm just illustrating to Ahmed that "symbolism" isn't some curse word. We use it all the time. And he uses it all the time. Yet somehow, he blocks this out and insults everyone who is capable of seeing that symbolism is in fact a major part of the Qur'an.

Frankly, I'm tired of it.

C?mon I thought this forum is about intelligence

peace

Peace,
Tay

but again please don?t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ? and used a totally different method of communication?, now for you to consider that the only way of talking is pushing the air through the throats, then you have limited the ability of Allah and the way He can talk and the ways He can make His creatures talk, for me anything is possible when it comes to the Creator, i.e. He can produce talks without having throats from the first place.

I work with what you give me. And what you gave me was, in your words, "and used a totally different method of communication". The reality is, the qur'an does not tell you that they used a totally different method. This is what you extracted from the text by using your mind.

So, the text says "they talked".
Ahmed says, "they used a totally different method of communication".

Therefore, Ahmed takes the text as symbolic of something else.

Case closed.

Peace,
Tay

welcome back.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5984.0
please answer this young man's question.

sorry mate, he does not have a serious question, just the old confusing shaitan calls, for him, if he does not believe that soliman existed then how come he believes that Allah exists?, using his own flawed logic that has nothing to do with belief, he needs to prove Allah existrance before he believes in Him

Salam

Just because we want to stay and argue do we have to come up with the most childish
Of arguments. AB I do not know why you even care to reply other than say salam and put your efforts in another discussion.

Pahroah spoke to moses . Did he speak in Arabic. Did Adam, Noah , Abraham, Jesus, and many other figures from the past and different regions and countries speak in Arabic. C?mon Tay this is the Arabic translation of the conversations.

If some one says a computer speaks/communicates with another computer/equipment/modem today, it is no big deal. All these stuff made of
Metals and plastic communicating with each other and also with man ,
if you say this couple of hundred years back they will call you stupid or imbecile . The church might burn you in a stake . Metal talking to metal. Is it not possible for God if He wants to ?

C?mon I thought this forum is about intelligence