I do not claim that I have read all the tafsirs, but the few I read did not take this erronic meaning. In fact, the Arabic version says , a normal Arabic expression

1. Tafseer Ar-raazi a.Waters of the west seas is hot, so the sun looks as if itis setting in hot waters; b. according to Algiba'i, the waters were dark and it looked murky.
2. Alkashaf Same thing.

Both tafseers discuss whether it was "murky" water or "hot" water, nothing about the setting per se.

I could not see explicit understanding of (in (aka inside) murky waters ) except in Altabary quoting Ka3b (Ala7baar) who said You know Qur'aan better than me, but I see in the book (torah) that it sets in black mud!!!

So, this distorted understanding comes from Ka3b, quoted in Altabary!!!
Talk about Israeliyyaat!!

I think this is the main issue of the debate. Some have taken this as a literal meaning, meaning that the sun set inside the water while others take it as an expression.

Zul-Qarnain saw them ? he saw the sun set in a murky water, nothing wrong with that.

Something IS wrong with that. It is the wrong literal translation. It is sad nobody paid attention to this statement "the sun set in murky water". That's not how it should be said. It should be "the sun set, reflecting on murky water"; or at least "by murky water".

I only paid attention to this translation when I was reading the infamous comic book, where this verse was being mocked and above it a caricature with the sun setting "in" a pool of murky waters. I asked some native speakers (of English language) what they would understand if I said "the sun sets in the lake". All of them agreed that it meant "inside the lake"; of course after they were surprised why I would utter such nonesense!!

So while you (Ahmed) are honestly and feverishly trying to expalin this, for them (those you are replying to) you do not see any wrong with the sun "setting inside the murky water".

You could get killed if you look in the holies of holies where they kept the mana. Do you know why?

LOL oh is that where they kept their stash? Funny stuff

The observer point. The book is adressed to an observer, that obviously does not view the moving orbs from the planet mars or jupiter. It tell the observer, of the orbs as another sign, and it tells the observer that both the moon and the sun runs in orbits. This is a very, very good observation made that long ago. It just not entirely correct. thats my take on it.

That is a very good point and could be a possiblity. It is an inference - that is it is not a point known from just reading the text directly. Other inferences could also be true. Just because the text refers to the sun and moon running in orbits doesn't mean that the author did not know that the earth is also in orbit. You're assuming that the author was a person and that's how your inference becomes logical. But take away this assumption and the inference is no longer valid. But even if we are to take out the issue of the earth running in an orbit, there is still the issue of how the author knew that the sun and moon run in orbits. How is it possible that people with such primitive technology could make such a lucky guess?

Dont drink alcohol (unless you are from a people of understanding). This is just like kiss hanks ass. A brililant example of the skewed logic of a relegious mindset. If you dont know the story, go and look it up, its very short. And then i can give you very concrete examples of what i mean from the book itself.

LOL I just finished reading the story. I think the story left out alot in the actual deal we have. First of all, the quran isn't the end-all be-all. We receive revelations all the time if we've developed our intellect enough to listen. I'm sure you have experienced this in your life before. Secondly, "Hank" doesn't want us to kiss his ass or else he'll kick the shit out of us. The story says that he wants us to have the million dollars but he can't until you kiss his ass. But if that were the case, then anyone who disbelieves in "Hank" would be poor and destitute. "Hank" appears to be alot more Merciful and Gracious than the story claims him to be.
Also, there is no complete prohibition on alcohol in the quran. Please show me the verse because I've never heard of it. I haven't heard of any contradiction regarding the issue of alcohol in the quran, but if it's there let's discuss it.
I'd love to see some of your examples if you don't mind.

Speaking of Gog and Magog. Magog is the lodge brother name for Bush(Sr.). Or rather its a title of "honour" they can get in his lodge. For what i dont know.

Aaah yes I've read about that! a Bona fide prediction in the quran right there there's Magog in the flesh I guess Magog isn't a natural disaster after all .. well all depends on how you look at Bush ;D

Peace All

Hehe good one with the keg party. Much of the stuff we know as relegion started as a keg party. You could get killed if you look in the holies of holies where they kept the mana. Do you know why?

With all due respect, I don't find any reference to the earth at all in the above verse. The verse specifically deals with the sun and the moon so I don't know how you get that inference from that verse.

The observer point. The book is adressed to an observer, that obviously does not view the moving orbs from the planet mars or jupiter. It tell the observer, of the orbs as another sign, and it tells the observer that both the moon and the sun runs in orbits. This is a very, very good observation made that long ago. It just not entirely correct. thats my take on it.

I don't see this schism of 2 ideas being oddly mashed together in one book. Please provide for me some examples.
That would make the reading quite odd and non-sensical, if that were the case.

Dont drink alcohol (unless you are from a people of understanding). This is just like kiss hanks ass. A brililant example of the skewed logic of a relegious mindset. If you dont know the story, go and look it up, its very short. And then i can give you very concrete examples of what i mean from the book itself.

Speaking of Gog and Magog. Magog is the lodge brother name for Bush(Sr.). Or rather its a title of "honour" they can get in his lodge. For what i dont know.

You said

Never take anyones word up on anything. If you are in doubt stick to what you know. And this is not snide or anything, but history is a field i feel its important to make up your own mind, because we are not dealing with facts, but what people from a looong time ago tells us are facts, and often they do not agree with eachother, or we have only access to part of their writings.

This is very good advice. I believe you are a person of understanding, so I took your word as information of value until I get the time to do some more research for my own knowledge. But in general, I agree with you - we should always reach our own conclusions on any issue, especially history.

While this research is factual to me best knowledge, i dont think many realise that in ancient egypt things wasnt as streanmlined as sold to us. The differencs in traditions, names and stories are very broad and differed from one area to another. Just like i suspect the ancient arabs to have been, with a pantheon of different gods, and a process of borrowing them from eachother.

Yes, I agree. I've recently read of the goddess Bis (depicted as a cat) whose temple was in Northern Egypt and whose worshippers were in Southern Egypt. Every year, in commemoration of this goddess, her patrons would travel the Nile, and in each town would show the people of that town their veneration for this particular goddess by drinking and dancing. The visiting women would go into dance competitions with the women in the town to prove what their love for Bis can do for them to try and bring them along for the festivities in the temple. It sounded to me like some kind of keg party D
Anyway, yes i agree ;D

And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

"problem" is that this says the earth is center. only within very recent years have we realised that the sun has an orbit. Or rather, the whole solar system has an orbit, all the planets have a 2nd larger orbit it takes 26.000 yeras to complete. Im not saying it couldnt be a refference to this, but i doubt it because even tho these astrologers where brilliant at figuring out things out, most of them belived that the earth was center and that the moon and sun floated in their orbits around it.

With all due respect, I don't find any reference to the earth at all in the above verse. The verse specifically deals with the sun and the moon so I don't know how you get that inference from that verse.

I understand why Danish takes the stand that he does. Because i too think the Quran says 2 things. As if 2 different stories from different "groups" was collected and brought together, perhaps to bring them together, but this is mere speculation on my behalf.

I don't see this schism of 2 ideas being oddly mashed together in one book. Please provide for me some examples.
That would make the reading quite odd and non-sensical, if that were the case.

ALtso my own relationship with the Quran is that its full of good advice worth paying attention to, unlike most other scriptures. And it has been my guide all the way, and it still serves as such when im in doubt. but this doesnt mean i dont question it, nor do i delute myself into thinking that the realg God, the creator God throws books at us.

I'm very happy to hear that, brother! I also believe we are supposed to question things but only in the spirit of trying to gain knowledge. Surely, God does not throw books at us. Making the revelations into a book was a human invention. just as it would be easier to write many important numbers down rather than just memorizing it.

. But people can realise Gods truths, and these people can write them down, and some did. thank God.
If we all had to figure out all this stuff, we wouldnt ahve time for anything else.

Aah here is where we differ I think. I believe they really were directly revealed in exact form to the messengers, and not just a truthful philosophy that someone wrote down and just so happens to coincide with God's Laws and Truth.

as for the story of dul, i dont udnerstand the morals of it, i dont know who its talking about, i cant find out who its talking about and alexander seems a thin explanation just like that, so in other words. It has no practical implication on my life, and as such i dont care about it. Ok, so some guy had something happen to him...thats good, but hardly valuable for my salvation.

I once read somewhere on this forum that dul-qarnein was actually a natural disaster. If i remember correctly, i think it was a volcano. i'll try to find that thread and post it here as i think it has some relevence to this thread as well.

Peace All

P.S. I found it. It wasn't Dul-Qarnein but rather Gog and Magog that were the natural disasters. Here's the link

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=621.0

We see things differently and as long as we do not force our views on each other and agree to differ, May we both go our own ways in peace and harmony.

Peace Salim

Peace bro

What I am saying is that knowledge is not some thing new to our generation , and I was not even talking about dark seas or asking you to follow me blindly .

Ok, I misunderstood you then, sorry

Please do not worry about me going to Hell because of Danish ,

I'm not worried about specific individuals, I'm talking general on a public Islamic forum, where many us to spread their poisons, if it was not an Islamic forum then I don't give a fluke really, or I may if I'm interested

If I go to hell IT will be because of the decisions ?I? have made and not because of something or some one.

I guess many goes by following others especially their parents, I believe the Quran talked about this specific incident that the misguided will ask from Allah to double the punishment of those who misguided them, I know what I;m talking about bro

I have seen people come and go from this forum I have seen it grow from a couple of us ,to hundreds ,The like of Danish have come and gone

they go when the fail, some insist on their deceptions to humajity despite being responded to many times by many here, they are here not to learn rather to spread posion and me as a Muslim have to act positive against them not in a negative manner, they are the ones who are attacking the Quran and I'm the one who is defending it therefore they are the pertpetrators not me

now regarding opinions, fine, everyone is entitled to it, but on this forum where they cause further and uneeded confusion to the already confused muslims, I just can't take that, i'm here more for the likes of Danish not really to teach my brothers and sisters the Quran, I'm not a Quran teacher, I'm a student like all those who want to learn it properly

he has an opinion and his opinion should be heard that?s what makes this forum what it is.

Peace Salim

Heard once, twice, not bloody zillions of times to make sure the posion is very well inserted in the minds of the naive ones

I'm going to continue what I do bro and if the forum owner or admins not happy they can easily kick me out and I will respect that

Salam bro

What I am saying is that knowledge is not some thing new to our generation , and I was not even talking about dark seas or asking you to follow me blindly .

Please do not worry about me going to Hell because of Danish ,If I go to hell IT will be because of the decisions ?I? have made and not because of something or some one.

I have seen people come and go from this forum I have seen it grow from a couple of us ,to hundreds ,The like of Danish have come and gone he has an opinion and his opinion should be heard that?s what makes this forum what it is.

Peace Salim

Peace bro

I don?t understand what you mean mate, do you mean it was known about the dark sea in the old days?

Fine bro, can you please prove it, or do you want me to follow you blindly?

Well I?m not following anyone blindly, it is a common fact that diving to deep seas started about 70 to 100 years from now, not bloody 1400 years ago

Can you please get me a logical refute, not an emotional one?, cheers

Ahmed Just before you start labelling me in your 2006 profiler I believe it is important to ask questions and not to follow any thing blindly ,

Sure anyone can ask questions, and I have no problem with that, but Danish is not one of those, Danish is here to take as many with him to the hell fire so what I?m doing is trying to help those who will fell preys to his deceptions, lies fabrications and manipulations, logically speaking according to the Quran, I?m doing a noble act, on the contrary can you please prove to me that Danish is doing a noble act on a Quran based forum?

I may believe that Magi is one who is asking sincere questions and I will be happy to try and answer his questions with respect inshaallah but I really doubt that this is his intensions, Allah only knows

Salam

Lets not underestimate people of the past they have come up with a lot stuff that is hard to explain even now .

Ahmed Just before you start labelling me in your 2006 profiler I believe it is important to ask questions and not to follow any thing blindly , some times answers are not as appealing as we might like but thats life, but that gives no reason to call each other infidel or heathen .

Peace Salim

Mate if the Quran calls them as such, I will call them as such

I'm sorry I donlt fear the people

However I carry no hard feelings to anyone whatsoever on this earth

Salam

Lets not underestimate people of the past they have come up with a lot stuff that is hard to explain even now .

Ahmed Just before you start labelling me in your 2006 profiler I believe it is important to ask questions and not to follow any thing blindly , some times answers are not as appealing as we might like but that?s life, but that gives no reason to call each other infidel or heathen .

Peace Salim

Or like utter darkness in the deep sea there covers it a wave above which is another wave, above which is a cloud, (layers of) utter darkness one above another; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever Allah does not give light, he has no light.

(40)

-> The verse is a metaphor describing the disbelievers, it starts by telling us those disbelievers are like ? like utter darkness in the deep sea?, i.e. we are now in deep sea, then the verse starts to describe the deep sea as the environment where those believers are metaphorically described as living in it, the deep sea was decribed as follow ? there covers it a wave above which is another wave above which is a cloud?, this is the sequence as you go up from deep sea , waves on top of waves until you reach the surface then on top of that are the clouds, the verse clearly stated that those layers as you go up are on top of each others ? utter darkness one above another?, again darkness was highlighted, the verse then moved on to describe one of those disbelievers living in this dark and hostile environment of the deep sea ? when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it?

Here you have it bro, now please explain to me

1. How anyone knows that the deep sea is dark to a degree that you won?t even see your hand in front of you?
2. Total darkness in sea is achieved at depths of about 200 meters, how a human can go there 1400 years ago without Oxygen and deep sea pressure protective suits then come back and tell humanity the fact he witnessed?
3. If you visually look at the sea, its color is blue, if it is dark inside then it has to be black, therefore to have a guess based on visual observation is in no way a possibility to be accurate 100% 1400 years later, but if it was a guess, then how those humans who wrote the Quran managed to have that guess?, well I say how the hell they came up with that metaphor to describe the dark environment a disbeliever live in?, it sound impossible to me?, it is far more plausible to describe then as imprisoned in a lock dark room, don?t you think?

Cheers bro

Please read this as you look for an answer to me and I will bring the verse here so you read exactly what it says

http//www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/6776.html

http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/abyss/life/extremes.html

Cheers

don't worry about the waves then, let's concentrate on the dark deep sea, , actually he light will pentrate the sea for about a few hundred meters then it will get dark untill you see nothing in fact I read a story about a diver who went into a verty known diving area and he drowned the a few years later a friend of his wanted to get his dead body for his family so he dived in the same spot, "it is a very dangerous diving area and then he reclaimed his body, he lost his light and has to abondon first try because he could not see his hand in front of him, EXACTLY AS THE QURAN TOLD US "THAT WE WILL NOT SEE OUR HANDS IN FRONT OF US IN DEEP SEA"

now how anyone 1400 years ago manges to dive to about 100 meters then survived to tell us about the dark deep sea?

cheers

You have some excellent points that I can't refute simply because I don't know much of the folklore of various cultures.

So I'll take your word for it unless I find otherwise.

The problem with this argument posed by Bro Danish and supported by you is that you can't have it both ways.

Either the Arabs didn't know the earth was round or did know it.

Either the Arabs didn't know the sun runs its course around a spherical orbit or they did know it.

According to the quran, the sun and moon circle in orbits

And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.

According to the quran the earth is round

The Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and Lord of the easts.

He made the earth egg-shaped.

If you believe the quran has folklore, then you believe it is not God's Words because God does not make mistakes. Therefore, if Arabs wrote it, they would have to either consistently show no knowledge of the earth's shape and the orbit of the sun, or their knowledge-base would remain constant. If they already know it, as is proven from these verses, then you would have to find another explanation to the verse of thul-qarnein. Or you could believe that God authored the quran, but that would be outlandish wouldn't it

Peace all

Peace sis soul2squeeze

Never take anyones word up on anything. If you are in doubt stick to what you know. And this is not snide or anything, but history is a field i feel its important to make up your own mind, because we are not dealing with facts, but what people from a looong time ago tells us are facts, and often they do not agree with eachother, or we have only access to part of their writings.
And i do not agree its an either or situation. In the same way that you and i have no idea in the world what they are finding in the labs of naza. KNoweldge in a society is not equally spread.

Understand that i dont view it as folklore, but early science, and as such i find it very impresive. Im not saying im not finding it impressive, i do. But for other reasons than i think you do, and the best way than i can explain it is by sharing a piece of research i did on a subject we both know of. Im not saying my research is conclusive, but that this is where it constantly leads me back to. As you can see it was used in a debate about noahs ark in turkey. )

Just before the nile flooded egypt there was a boat shaped moon. The egyptians understood that this destructive flood was what kept them alive, but at the same time it was a horrible flood clinsing the area every year.
They called this moon, archa nue. And it came to save all, from the terrible flood, and landed upon the top of Gods mountain. Which sure as HELL isnt that turkish tourist honeypot.

http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/noahsark.gif

it was merely an example of where it snuck in from into the hebrew theology that later turned into xtianity. In mountain areas they had problems with melting snow, but the same reality of things. The water was destructive, yet it brought about new life. Everything got killed, then resurected (ever heard that before?) so the principle was applied all over the place. All over earth people was facing the very same fears. nature, darkness e.g And had no explanation of why things was so cruel, so it spawned a plenthoa of dieties and principles all alike. Not because people neccecerily met up, alltho this happened as one culture took over another, but people was facing the same things, are the same people and thus came up with the same stories and analogies. We really need dig no deeper.

The interresting aspect of this ofcourse is how stuff got blend, and the many wonderfull variations it has brought about. I dont view the stories as evil nor lame. They descibes something very real, and i find it impressive that our ancestors understood the principles at such an early stage, alltho they didnt call it by the words science use today, nor did they understand it in the detail that we do. But they understood the basic principles, and thats really something Smile

So in a sense you could say that these messages are from the creator, that which we today call God, as it is a perfectly valid desciption of God's works, alltho in more primitive terms. But when the scriptures move into punishments here on earth, now were are talking ancient politics, and to be honest. They have nothing to teach us, and it would be about time we moved away from it, because we are still stuck in babylon, soddomah and gommoreh on a mental level, and that is hardly impressive after all these years.

While this research is factual to me best knowledge, i dont think many realise that in ancient egypt things wasnt as streanmlined as sold to us. The differencs in traditions, names and stories are very broad and differed from one area to another. Just like i suspect the ancient arabs to have been, with a pantheon of different gods, and a process of borrowing them from eachother.

And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

"problem" is that this says the earth is center. only within very recent years have we realised that the sun has an orbit. Or rather, the whole solar system has an orbit, all the planets have a 2nd larger orbit it takes 26.000 yeras to complete. Im not saying it couldnt be a refference to this, but i doubt it because even tho these astrologers where brilliant at figuring out things out, most of them belived that the earth was center and that the moon and sun floated in their orbits around it.

I understand why Danish takes the stand that he does. Because i too think the Quran says 2 things. As if 2 different stories from different "groups" was collected and brought together, perhaps to bring them together, but this is mere speculation on my behalf.

ALtso my own relationship with the Quran is that its full of good advice worth paying attention to, unlike most other scriptures. And it has been my guide all the way, and it still serves as such when im in doubt. but this doesnt mean i dont question it, nor do i delute myself into thinking that the realg God, the creator God throws books at us. But people can realise Gods truths, and these people can write them down, and some did. thank God. )
If we all had to figure out all this stuff, we wouldnt ahve time for anything else.

If you believe the quran has folklore, then you believe it is not God's Words because God does not make mistakes.

i belive the universe, creation, the whole design to be "Gods words". And i view the Quran as written by men who understood many of the principles. But what makes it a remarkable book is its suggestion to a republic community. As a law, it is more fair than anything we ever came up with.

as for the story of dul, i dont udnerstand the morals of it, i dont know who its talking about, i cant find out who its talking about and alexander seems a thin explanation just like that, so in other words. It has no practical implication on my life, and as such i dont care about it. Ok, so some guy had something happen to him...thats good, but hardly valuable for my salvation.

Ahmet, i know for a fact taht the viking knew about the waves, and i suspect, but dont know for a fact, that other sailing cultures would have experienced these very dangrous waves in waves. The deep sea one is intriquing, i have no explanation, and i find it ahrd to belive that i will find one. This is a true "miracle" if you want to. I cannot see how anyone could have known about the depths in the ocean. Unless ofcourse they jumped into the water when they where sailing and looked down, then you can actually see the darkness below. But its not a satisfactory explanation on its own. Good one Ahmet, thats a real challenge, it will properbly take some time before i can find anything, if anything at all.

Peace

can you please tell me how and who from the early people about 1400 years ago knew that there are internal waves above waves, as well the deep sea is very dark that you can't see your hand in front of you?

Thanks

You have some excellent points that I can't refute simply because I don't know much of the folklore of various cultures.

So I'll take your word for it unless I find otherwise.

The problem with this argument posed by Bro Danish and supported by you is that you can't have it both ways.

Either the Arabs didn't know the earth was round or did know it.

Either the Arabs didn't know the sun runs its course around a spherical orbit or they did know it.

According to the quran, the sun and moon circle in orbits

And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.

According to the quran the earth is round

The Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and Lord of the easts.

He made the earth egg-shaped.

If you believe the quran has folklore, then you believe it is not God's Words because God does not make mistakes. Therefore, if Arabs wrote it, they would have to either consistently show no knowledge of the earth's shape and the orbit of the sun, or their knowledge-base would remain constant. If they already know it, as is proven from these verses, then you would have to find another explanation to the verse of thul-qarnein. Or you could believe that God authored the quran, but that would be outlandish wouldn't it

Peace all

yes we do, but we altso know now (in the last 10 years) that its a debate that has flourished pretty much since day one. round vs. flat earth. But it was not laymen discussing these things, it was the astrologers, the magis and the scholars. The layman (whom the Quran is written for by own admittance) didnt know his arse from his elbow, regarding these things. And it didnt matter all that much to him, this is why relegion was so succefull explaining all these things, and why it came to set standard for the next 2000 years nearly. because the layman didnt question those things, he didnt know any better.

I have reason to believe this was old knowledge and "his-story" portrays a different picture. Why are there pyramids and hieroglyphics in Mexico? Why are there artifacts unknown to the environment of Mexico in Mexico?

I agree 100% with you here, these are some very interresting stuff. I have no conclution on it. I have heard many theories, some good, some funny and others ludicris. But not agreement on it.

And if people thought the sun set in the water, what did the poor desert Arabs think?

Properbly that the sun set in water. arabia is sourrounded by sea. And arabs was master sailors and traders. They where the vikings of the middle east. In Germany the celts had similar tales, and there is a bigger chance that a german never saw water than an arab if we calculate from size alone. Yet, the germans still belived the sun set in the water on the edge of the world. their scholars/priests might have known better, but what good was that? When Nicola Tezla explained some of his theories back then, people thought he was absolutely out of his mind. Today those same theories are the foundation of our whole society as we know it. In other words. Just like always in history there has been incredibly bright individuals, with ideas they couldnt sell to the broad mass of people, becasue they world of concepts was not open to it yet.

It set in the sand? Did they try digging it out at night? Show me some evidence that the Arabs believed the sun set in water, before making assumptions.

look at the very verse we are talking about.
Peace

1500 years ago to the majority of people that was the truth. If you said the sun set on the water on the edge of the world. Their reality is now our analogy for some reason.

How do you know that was the truth? Do we even know if people thought the earth was flat? I have reason to believe this was old knowledge and "his-story" portrays a different picture. Why are there pyramids and hieroglyphics in Mexico? Why are there artifacts unknown to the environment of Mexico in Mexico? And if people thought the sun set in the water, what did the poor desert Arabs think? It set in the sand? Did they try digging it out at night? Show me some evidence that the Arabs believed the sun set in water, before making assumptions.

Peace All

1500 years ago to the majority of people that was the truth. If you said the sun set on the water on the edge of the world. Their reality is now our analogy for some reason.

It's interesting how you made an extraordinary accusation, and then tried to fool people by saying any other explanation is unacceptable. By your accord, we cannot look at the dictionary, we cannot read into the meaning of the words for any metaphor, we cannot look at poetic license, and we cannot speak about God's Almighty Power. And if we do, we are are not to be taken seriously, in fact we are quran apologists

No it is in the inconsequent way those ereas are used. If the verse is shot down as being ludicris, then suddenly its symbolic, if the symbol is blown to bits because it makes little sense, then its a metaphor and so on. And i have seen in many discutions here how the same verse is used as all 3, depending on the situation in which its taken out of its context to prove someones personal point.
If it wasnt so inconsequent, i would feel different about it.

Peace

well then you can safely show it to me. what languages do you use?

Do You Think My Program Code Are One Or Two Pages?, Think Not, My Programs Are Hundreds Of Pages Of Code

Salam

I have yet to finnish a visual demo in less than 10.000 lines of Code. well thats not true, i did do something in the lines of this
x=axh, y=ayh, z=azh (axh)^2+(a*yh)^2=r^2 a=+-r/sqrt(xh^2+yh^2)

Peace

editits a raytracer btw. I can write it as raw/uniconx/rexx assembler if you prefer.

Good, however I understood nothing of the code you posted, I code in VB only

Salam

Thats a nice language, i havent been using it all to much myself, but i do understand the syntax. So lets see some of the code. becasue what you claim to have developed, is a tassid knowlledge type program, and you can get billions for a working version. as several people have tried for 25 years. This is altso why im rather sceptical about its actual capability to single out people based on whole conversations.

There is a bug in the formula i posted on second thought, nice one for showing myself off, lol. -[ Good thing you didnt type it, and took me up on it ;D

Peace

1886 states that he was travelling until he reached an area and HE (thul-qarnein) found the sun setting in the water. That does not mean the sun really was setting in the water. I can say "I went to the shore and watched the sun set into the ocean" It would be really absurd for anyone to really believe that I believe the sun is setting in the ocean. This has nothing to do with making anything into a metaphor, or playing tricks with the dictionary. This is just plain common knowledge. Another example "I walked all the way out to where the sun kissed the earth" Do I really think the sun kissed the earth? Come on folks. It's not rocket science.

Another point to help quran-readers along, Thul-Qarnein was doing the walking and he's the one who found the sun setting in the water - not God. God is only narrating Thul-Qarnein's human experience. (If thul-qarnein is even human).

It's interesting how you made an extraordinary accusation, and then tried to fool people by saying any other explanation is unacceptable. By your accord, we cannot look at the dictionary, we cannot read into the meaning of the words for any metaphor, we cannot look at poetic license, and we cannot speak about God's Almighty Power. And if we do, we are are not to be taken seriously, in fact we are quran apologists. Great subliminal message. You have discredited us before we even posted.

Unfortunately for you, just because you started the thread doesn't mean I have to play by your rules and not use my mind. I will use my intellect and read the dictionary, understanding the meanings, reflect upon God's Awesome Power, and I will refer to common knowledge.
If this is not good enough evidence but your argument that "oh look the sun sets in the water how dare someone say that" is good evidence, then who is the one being blind?

Peace All

well then you can safely show it to me. what languages do you use?

Do You Think My Program Code Are One Or Two Pages?, Think Not, My Programs Are Hundreds Of Pages Of Code

Salam

I have yet to finnish a visual demo in less than 10.000 lines of Code. well thats not true, i did do something in the lines of this
x=axh, y=ayh, z=azh (axh)^2+(a*yh)^2=r^2 a=+-r/sqrt(xh^2+yh^2)

Peace

editits a raytracer btw. I can write it as raw/uniconx/rexx assembler if you prefer.

Good, however I understood nothing of the code you posted, I code in VB only

Salam