Question on 5:38 - Theft Punishment

ahmed812

Peace,

I had a question

538, "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off from their resources and power as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."

If 538 were translated the way you put it, Can you please explain how it is the same punishment as Joseph's brother ? As per 538, you would take away the thief's resources and power. Is it the same as making him work and asking him to repay the articles stolen ? What if he has 100000$ and stole 500$ ? What would you take from him ? 500$ which he stole or 100000$ to cut off his resources ?

By Power, what exactly would be taken from him ?

And as per 539, everything will be given (resource and power) back to him ?

IA would appreciate if you could help.

Thanking you in advance.

Sorry if this is a repost.

Salaam

Ahmed

unknownuser

Salaams Br,

Waalssariqu waalssariqatufaiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahuAAazeezun hakeemun

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime and Allah is Exalted in power.
39.
Faman taba min baAAdi thulmihiwaaslaha fa-inna Allaha yatoobu AAalayhiinna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Using Quranic Dictionary

?.cut off their abilities (to be able to do it again) as a deterrent from Allah???.

But if then they repent????

AND THIS IS HOW IT?S BEING DONE THE WORLD OVER.

Accept in Saudi.

ahmed812

Salaam,

I agree that cutting the hand is not the commandment per the Quran.

But i would like to understand how exactly the process of cutting of resources and Power would work. I would appreciate if you could use the example i had mentioned.

Salaam

Ahmed

unknownuser

Salaams Br.

538, "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off from their resources and power as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."

If 538 were translated the way you put it, Can you please explain how it is the same punishment as Joseph's brother ? As per 538, you would take away the thief's resources and power. Is it the same as making him work and asking him to repay the articles stolen ? What if he has 100000$ and stole 500$ ? What would you take from him ? 500$ which he stole or 100000$ to cut off his resources ?

By Power, what exactly would be taken from him ?

I can?t agree with the above translator as to my understanding it?s not the cutting off from ?

But it?s the cutting off of their resources ?.

To enslave one or to luck them up is similar the individual cannot attempt to steal again until they are free.

So if in the meantime they repent they get back their freedom and/or the use of their resources.

I think.

Gods Blessings.

ahmed812

Salaam

I have taken the translation from the article

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm

Also, i didnt follow how the cutting off and cutting off from are different. Can you please explain ?

Either way, can you use the example i have given ?

Salaam

unknownuser

Salaams Br.

I think we are in confusion here and that is because these two ayahs? I quoted are actually only talking about punishing the culprit, these ayah?s are talking about people who have a habit of this kind of thing, and if he repents then he will be forgiven. These ayah's aren't talking about the payment of what he might have stolen or damaged.

So in such a case, like josephs case, the guy is held until he repents or rather is seen to have repented but must also pay the fine.

The amount of repayment is deliberately confused and is in ayah 595 where two just men actually judge the crime and the repayment.

Salaams.

ahmed812

Salaam,

I dont think 595 is related

O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to expiate with the same from the livestock, to be judged by of justice from you in the form of a fine which shall reach the Kaab'a; or its cancellation shall be using it to feed the needy ones, while he is denied anything from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whosoever returns, then God will seek vengeance from him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.

It talks about punishment for killing a game during pilgrimage.

Do you agree ?

Salaam

unknownuser

Salaams Br,

No! Sorry Br. You have got a long ways to go to find out.

I would start by reading other topics and then if you ahave the ego and the time to do some research for self.

But what game and what pilgrimage?

N.B That isn't a quistion though - as you need to find out what all these things mean according to the message from Allah.

But don't stop it was very exciting to me so it may be to you aswell.

God is our Guide.

God is with you.

ahmed812

Salaam All,

I am trying to understand this article and put it in the forum as i didnt get a response from the website....

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm

Would appreciate if someone who was in agreement in the article replied and helped.

Ahmed

Layth

Salam,

I am trying to understand this article and put it in the forum as i didnt get a response from the website....

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm

Would appreciate if someone who was in agreement in the article replied and helped.

Yes, there is no cutting as per the Sunni/Shia practice, rather, there is a holding of the thief to make him/her work to compensate for that which was stolen.

This can be clealry seen in the example of Joseph dealing with his brother in 1271-75

jonny_k

Peace "quran",

Salam,

Yes, there is no cutting as per the Sunni/Shia practice, rather, there is a holding of the thief to make him/her work to compensate for that which was stolen.

This can be clealry seen in the example of Joseph dealing with his brother in 1271-75

JK- The compaensation law itself sounds reasobale but how can this be derived from the Arabic verse where GOD says to "aqta(cut/mark)" the hands? In the same sura Joseph the women also "cut(qata)" their hands, but this only shows that the whole hand aint to be cut like RK has promoted but not that no marks on the hand are to be done at all. GOD Bless!

ahmed812

Salaam All,

Would it be OK to take Joseph's example for dealing with thieves ?

We need to look at the other example also. Why is Joseph put in Jail ? for Adultery ? Since we know the punishment for adultery is not Prison, will it be OK to take the scenario of theft.

This thought just occured to me. Please correct me where i am wrong.

Salaam

Ahmed

zenje

Peace ahmed812,

The punishment applied to Joseph was not of God's laws, as you mentioned we know prison is not punishment for adultery. Infact, Joseph chose the punishment to stay away from trouble.
1232. She said ?This is the one whom you blamed me for, and I have seduced him from himself but he refused. And if he does not do as I command him, he will be imprisoned, and he will be one of those disgraced.?
1233. He said ?My Lord, prison is better to me than what they are inviting me to do. And if You do not turn their scheming away from me, I will fall for them and be of the ignorant.?

ahmed812

Salaam,

I would like to understand why you say that it was not God's law ?

1235
Later, they saw to it, despite the clear proofs, that they should imprison him for awhile.

From this verse, I do get the understanding that even though he tried to prove his innocence, he was jailed for adultery.

On the same lines, if you look at the punishment for theft, how does one conclude it was not king's law ?

1272
They said, "We lost the king's cup. Anyone who returns it will receive an extra camel-load; I personally guarantee this."

1274
They said, "What is the punishment for the thief, if you are liars?"

1275
They said, "The punishment, if it is found in his bag, is that the thief belongs to you. We thus punish the guilty."

1276
He then started by inspecting their containers, before getting to his brother's container, and he extracted it out of his brother's container. We thus perfected the scheme for Joseph; he could not have kept his brother if he applied the king's law. But that was the will of GOD. We exalt whomever we choose to higher ranks. Above every knowledgeable one, there is one who is even more knowledgeable.

Also, Can you help me understand what the punishment would have been otherwise ? i.e., if it had been the king's law

Thanks for being patient !!

Salaam

Ahmed

ahmed812

Salaam,

Also, can you help me understand why 1272 and 1274 has "He Said" instead of "They said" in translations on the website ? All others have used THEY.

P.S I know very little arabic )

Salaam

Ahmed

Samia

Salaam,

Also, can you help me understand why 1272 and 1274 has "He Said" instead of "They said" in translations on the website ? All others have used THEY.

It is "they" Joseph's men, or at least Joseph and the crier (in verse 1270)

ahmed812

Salaam,

Thanks !

Also, it is interesting to noite the last part of the sentence. It has I.

" I personally guarantee this"

Ahmed

Layth

Salam Jonny,

JK- The compaensation law itself sounds reasobale but how can this be derived from the Arabic verse where GOD says to "aqta(cut/mark)" the hands? In the same sura Joseph the women also "cut(qata)" their hands, but this only shows that the whole hand aint to be cut like RK has promoted but not that no marks on the hand are to be done at all. GOD Bless!

You are refering to two different words which is the source of all this confusion.

The verse 1231 (as well as 533, and 7124) all use the word Qattiu (with a shadda on the ta) which is correctly translated as cut/sever

Verse 538 uses the word Iqtau (without the shadda) which is translated correctly as stop/suspend/withhold (see 1325 for the useage of the same word).

Ahmed,

Also, can you help me understand why 1272 and 1274 has "He Said" instead of "They said" in translations on the website ? All others have used THEY

It should be they. Thanks for pointing out the error, it will be corrected.

ahmed812

Thanks. All Praise belongs to God.

On the article, I had another question.

1275
They said, "The punishment, if it is found in his bag, is that the thief belongs to you. We thus punish the guilty."

Does this not mean that the thief becomes the owner's slave ?

The Bible also indicates the same thing.

Bible Genesis Chapter 44
10 And he said, Now also let it be according unto your words he with whom it is found shall be my servant; and ye shall be blameless.

So my question again would be .... Can we apply this today ?

Salaam

zenje

Peace Ahmed