Relationships
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Peace lilyfleur,
Guess it just disappointed me that here too, more serious issues aren't being addressed.
I guess jankren beat me to it, but feel free to use the search function. You will find that many serious issues have been extensively discussed in this forum.
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I agree partially with Lilyfluer
The amount of moralizing that we muslims seem to do with respect to pre-marital sex amazes me.
You have to understand the reason for its prohibition in the Quran in the first place. These had to do with
- STDs
- Unwanted pregnancies
- Responsiblity in caring for the children
All of these things can be mitigated through correct application of laws within society and by responsible behaviour as adults.
I think the key admonish in the Quran is against engaging in relationships with women in secret. I don't think there is anything wrong with a boyfriend and girlfriend type of relationships even if there is sexual intercourse. As long as it's open and acknowledged by ones family and friends and the consequences of pregnancy are borne by the responsible individuals, I'm not sure it's haram. "Those to whom you rightfully belong" can be interpreted as those to whom you've committed and they to you.
I come from a family where my parents had an arranged marriage and after 45 years it's painfully obvious that had they even gotten to know eachother for a year or so before hand they probably would've never gotten married. And even now they should be divorced but our culture doesn't permit it.
Prohibitions against pre-marital intercourse are primarily cultural, historic, and socio-biologically based. They have nothing to do with God or spirituality.
My .02
Raz
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I feel frustrated with people's minds, rather thoughts.
Lilyfluer
I won't label things as haram and halal, as past and present people have in today's islamic society.(though maybe in my view i'd see it as wrong, anyway I won't go there) The book is there accept as you wish by it. If with your great knowledge it is interpreted as ok for you then I say go and do what you feel is right based on your logic and understandings because I tell you what, I'm not here to dictact my views to anyone everyone has their own and forever people will have different opinions. Maybe I feel it's part of my duty to show you what I beleive is truths but yeh I'm not saying everything is black and white it lies down to the intepretation you decide to take. so I'm sorry I can't get you something that says something as such is untimately forbiddon.Thanks for your advice, alhamdulillah I think for myself. Tanveer answered my question he had knowledge on such issue which I happened to agree with, because I am not so well versed I thought maybe he could elaborate and make others understand as I'm not so great at it.
I'm no scholar, nor a learnered person but I believe it is up to you to make judgement of what is right and wrong, I mean why can we accept something as "ok" without having proof of it being ok, and just because traditionalist say it is wrong doesn't mean we automatically throw their perspectives in the bin, not all things they believe are based on hadith.
Anyway besides this I think if it brings good to you then it usually is good, if it brings bad to you you should avoid it if you're not sure, you should avoid it until you know otherwise. this is my "view" based on nothing. Just so you know I'm not asking you to accept this I'm just sharing it.
For all of you
Where do you think humans learn't morals? do you think if we were isolated individual in some jungle or cave our morals would be different? honest question.Raz
you said
You have to understand the reason for its prohibition in the Quran in the first place. These had to do with
- STDs
- Unwanted pregnancies
- Responsiblity in caring for the children
All of these things can be mitigated through correct application of laws within society and by responsible behaviour as adults.
Not all laws are just so these can't be don't as easily as you think.
I'm pretty sure I've read a verse that states something along the lines of God created us in different cultures/tribes so that we can learn from one another. Now even though cultues have influences and strong ones they are not entirely bad. Also I can tell you that if you go into an Arab family claiming to have an open relationship making it ok to do what ever it is, I'm sure you'd be digging your own grave.. if you know what I mean. In some cultures some things will never work.. I mean why did the pagan arabs used to kill girls when they were born? why is it today that a girl can bring so much shame to a family more than a guy even if they did the same acts(sins) ? hmm I wonder.. it all relates down to culture and the things they accept and yeh I guess society.
Lots of cultures disprove of divorce, it still happens though. No culture likes "divorce" I mean who would? off course for some people it has it's benefits. anyway it's up to you how much of culture you wish to take or lose. Arranged marriages are like forced marriages, I would never approve of it (personally) and at the end of the day it was your parents who chose that path. but I feel sad that you have to suffer the consequences well that you have to see the bad side of it.
I don't think culture is as bad as you make it out
anyway
Asalamu alaikum
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Peace Sarah, all,
Where do you think humans learn't morals? do you think if we were isolated individual in some jungle or cave our morals would be different? honest question.
I think morals/good comes pre-programmed by The God in the form of "rouh"/spirit, and the bad comes pre-programmed by The God also, in the form of "hawah"/ego, and the combination is "nafs"/soul. Subsequently the "nafs" is given free choice to choose between the good and the bad, so we can distinguish ourselves as the best creation by using our free choice to choose the good, thus avoiding the bad and do good works through our physical bodies. We have also been given the gift of reason to think before we make the choice. There is another factor thrown in in the form of "satan" which can have access to our ego only if we choose to allow it. Finally, the revelation guides the reason.
The ego has been made pleasurable for the purpose of the test. The ego is not entirely bad, it can be good too if we control it, but becomes bad if we let it control us and we take our ego as our god, and then ego can overpower reason/knowledge.
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
If we were isolated individual in some jungle or cave, we will have all of the above, except the revelation. In that scenario, it might take us a very long time to find out the correct balance by using our reason and through trial and error. The revelation speeds up this process tremendously and gives us a distinct advantage of accomplishing much more good in our short life spans. In addition to that, "satan" has been given access only to the ego that chooses it to be its master. So actually the dice are loaded in our favor and all we have to do is make the right choice !!
Following is an interesting article on this topic, which differs slightly from the above view point (it considers only "rouh", "nafs", and "satan", and doesn't mention the ego separately) but is a very good reading nevertheless
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/human.htm
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Peace Raz, All
I come from a family where my parents had an arranged marriage and after 45 years it's painfully obvious that had they even gotten to know eachother for a year or so before hand they probably would've never gotten married. And even now they should be divorced but our culture doesn't permit it.
After 45 years and still thinking of divorce!?
Prohibitions against pre-marital intercourse are primarily cultural, historic, and socio-biologically based. They have nothing to do with God or spirituality.
I disagree with you on that. It does have to do with God and spirituality.
There is no such thing as pre-marital intercourse. Sex IS marriage, unless it is rape or adultery (being four-witnessed for having multiple partners). Sex is A Mithaqan Ghaleethan. It is only permitted for the one person you are committed to. That is why no spouse is allowed to mess around after that Mithaq is given.
It is irrelevant what to call that commitment. Some like to call it marriage, others would call it nika7, etc.. -
Peace Taj, all,
Sex IS marriage, unless it is rape or adultery (being four-witnessed for having multiple partners). Sex is A Mithaqan Ghaleethan. It is only permitted for the one person you are committed to. That is why no spouse is allowed to mess around after that Mithaq is given.
It is irrelevant what to call that commitment. Some like to call it marriage, others would call it nika7, etc..The above is not according to the Qur'aan.
The following excerpt is quoted from the following article by brother Ayman
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malak.htm
Following are the sequence of steps prescribed in the process of marriage.
Step 1. Oath of Engagement (mandatory for parent-protected, optional for self-protected)
?And there is no offense by you, in what you propose to engage women or you concealed in yourselves, God knew that you will remember them. However, do not date them secretly, except to say good/polite sayings, and do not intend the marriage?s bond until the (marriage) contract?s predetermined time is reached, and know that God knows what is in yourselves, so be cautious of Him, and know that God is forgiving, clement.? (2235)
Verse 2235 provides the definition for engagement. The word Kh(o)TB(a)t in 2235 has the following connotations
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Explanation in response to query (2095, 3820)
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Demand (3823)
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Engage in conversation (1137, 2327, 2563)
Therefore the purpose of the couple getting engaged is to engage in conversation to find out if they are compatible before marriage. As clear from 2235, engaged couples can meet in secret only if they do it to engage in conversation about good as opposed to sin. They are also not to intend to consummate the marriage through its physical bond (intercourse) before the preset time that is agreed on which, as we will see below, is after marriage.
Step 2. Marriage
N(a)K(a)H To marry (See 2221, 2230, 2232, 2235, 2237, 43, 46, 422, 425, 4127, 243, 2432, 2433, 2460, 2827, 3349, 3350, 3353, 6010)
Verses 3349, 2236 and 2237 clearly demonstrate that ?nakah? simply means ?to marry? and it doesn?t imply intercourse
?O, you who believed, if you married the believing women then you divorced them before having intercourse with them, then they do not owe you a waiting period for you to calculate, so gratify them, and release them a beautiful release? (3349)
Accordingly, we can logically conclude that the predetermined time for the consummation of marriage (intercourse) must occur after marriage.
Step 3. Consummation of Marriage
There are three expressions in the Quran that describe consummation of marriage
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?Okdat alnikah,? Marriage?s physical bond, i.e. intercourse (See 2235, 2237)
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?M(a)Ss(a)Ss? (For example 2236, 2237, 3349?)
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?D(a)Kh(a)L? (For example 423,?)
??and do not intend the marriage?s bond until the (marriage) contract?s predetermined time is reached??(2235)
The final step is the consummation of marriage. A date for the consummation of marriage must be set prior to getting married. The predetermined date can be anytime after the marriage (step 2) above.
If a couple gets divorced after marriage but before its consummation, then only half the agreed upon grant is obligatory (see 2237).
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I think some people here tend to generalize all people. They seem to think that everybody (Or should I say all men? ) on earth has the same high degree of responsibility. For example why is there law that forbids the ownership of gun? Not all people would go berserk and shoot innocent people around him if they had guns, But there are many people who are not responsible enough therefore they should not be allowed to own guns. I believe this is why such a law exists .
Anyway, my main concern about sex outside marriage is of course teen pregnancy. Everytime I saw a high school teenager with 'swollen belly', I somehow felt anger because I knew her life would probably go downhill from that point onward, especially if the boy refuses to be responsible (Well, what a high school boy could probably do anyway?). As for the adults, I could care less because they can take care of themselves especially in western societies, at most they will only get STDs. However, the olders set example of what is acceptable in society to the youngers.
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First let me clear this up. I never said ANYTHING about sex "outside" of marriage. I was referring to oral sex within marriage. I'm not a genius but it's pretty clear in the Koran that God expects us to save sex for marriage (my interpretation). Sounds like some of you have found some loopholes, but I'll stick to what's clear and makes the most sense for me.
And secondly, Sarah, I aplogize for not noticing that it was Tanveer who originally posted the comment of oral sex being "lewd". To me (and I of course may be wrong) that sounds like a personal judgement call; as I've yet to find it in the Koran. But like you said yourself, you have to trust your instincts about whether some things are wrong or right, you know in your gut, thank God.
And yes, Tanveer I did find another forum that I feel could potentially be of great value. However, our personal sexual practices aside, this thread did open an additionally important idea. The notion of judging. The "ye without sin shall cast the first stone" thing was meant to open a dialogue about the importance of leaving the judging to God. I keep remembering something I read (not 100% sure if it was in the Koran, but I think it was) about how we will NEVER get it right. Meaning, as hard as we try, we will all fall short of understanding exactly how God intends for us to lead our lives. And it just seems to me that if we all approach this thing called religion, with that concept in mind, we could all come away wiser, happier, and more at peace with ourselves and with each other. Additionally, I asked if any of you are aware of any Islamic sayings, or better yet, anything in the Koran where God tells us to withhold the judgement of our brothers and sisters. I once read where Muhammed said (loose quote), if any of you says to someone, you are not a Muslim, it is you who is not Muslim. That kind of sounds to me like a warning to practice non-judgement. I leave you with a current favorite (non-Muslim, directly anyway) quote "The highest form of human intelligence is the ability to observe without evaluating". -Jiddu Krishnamurti (Indian Philosopher)
And just a big blanket apology to any of you Muslims out there who don't make a habit of judging each other. Sorry. But I've been overwhelmed with an enormous amount of "finger-wagging" within the Islamic community. If I had not been touched with a feeling I'm unable to find words for while reading the Koran, I'd consider throwing in the whole religion towel. After you've been "zapped" with that kind of almost shockingly new awareness, it's difficult to understand how the religion has gotten so twisted. All I can do is tend to my own backyard and hope everyone else is doin' the same. Peace all!
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Just something you said made me think of something
And just a big blanket apology to any of you Muslims out there who don't make a habit of judging each other. Sorry. But I've been overwhelmed with an enormous amount of "finger-wagging" within the Islamic community. If I had not been touched with a feeling I'm unable to find words for while reading the Koran, I'd consider throwing in the whole religion towel. After you've been "zapped" with that kind of almost shockingly new awareness, it's difficult to understand how the religion has gotten so twisted. All I can do is tend to my own backyard and hope everyone else is doin' the same. Peace all!
When most people judge you, they judge you according to their belief. So for example to some people wearing nailpolish is sooo wrong, so they judge you as being whatever it is they said, because according to them it's immodest or wrong or whatever.. So they are judging you based on personal things they believe. It doesn't mean they are entirely correct. Also we all have biases no matter what you think I believe all humans have it.
In my opinion theres no wrong to judge, you need to judge right from wrong don't you?? Cetain things aren't to be judged God is the ultimate judge and the most just. I mean I can't point at you and say your bad because you wear nailpolish to me thats just silly but say I am certain about something and have proof to back it up I'll judge according to that and to me it may be wrong but to you it wouldn't. It's your free choice to choose after all.Anyway don't take peoples judgements too personal, their word doesn't count and everyone judges and has biases. If noone made judgements why are there still stereotypes out there why do people prejudge? For example if you heard something of me I'm sure it would be stuck in your head and say it was a really bad thing, you probably wouldn't trust me until you knew otherwise if there was an otherwise..
Even generalising is judging...
BTW I assumed you question was directed outside of marriage, so excuse me if you found anything I said offensive, also I'm not entirely sure not everything is black and white..
Take Care
Asalamu alaikum
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Peace lilyfleur,
it was Tanveer who originally posted the comment of oral sex being "lewd". To me (and I of course may be wrong) that sounds like a personal judgement call; as I've yet to find it in the Koran.
I think you haven't been reading my replies. When I talked about oral sex I meant outside marriage but thought that it was automatically implied and forgot to add the words "outside marriage".
Quote from Boost
I think bro Tanveer was talking about oral sex being fahisha, he was talking about it outside of marriage ... bro Tanveer, put me in my place if i'm wrongOral sex outside of marriage is obviously a fahisha
Inside the realm of marriage i don't think any kind of sexual act is haram, as long as it remains between the married couple.
Thank you for clarifying what I meant; I should have been more careful with the wording !!
The close examination of all the lawful sex verses seems to indicate that what you are saying may be right, especially when one researches the words "lamas" and "mas" used for lawful sexual contacts between married couples in al-qur'aan, meaning "touch/feel" (2236, 2237, 443, 583, 584). Thus it seems that it is left up to the married couple to decide what kind of "mas" or "lamas" they are comfortable with.
The above is from my recent reply to Boost in the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13453.msg114234#msg114234
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I think the key admonish in the Quran is against engaging in relationships with women in secret. I don't think there is anything wrong with a boyfriend and girlfriend type of relationships even if there is sexual intercourse. As long as it's open and acknowledged by ones family and friends and the consequences of pregnancy are borne by the responsible individuals, I'm not sure it's haram. "Those to whom you rightfully belong" can be interpreted as those to whom you've committed and they to you.
In my opinion, if that is the situation then basically they are already married. It is misconception to say that marriage is about signing paper. As I said before, one of the purposes of marriage is to let it known to the world that A and B have made an oath to be together and responsible for one another.
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In my opinion, if that is the situation then basically they are already married. It is misconception to say that marriage is about signing paper. As I said before, one of the purposes of marriage is to let it known to the world that A and B have made an oath to be together and responsible for one another.
Agreed! That's my point precisely. Most cultural mores come from socio-biological needs. To confuse cultural prohibitions with Islamic ones is ignorant and haram. More often than not the Quran in fact warns against prohibiting that which God has allowed. It seems that God is well aware of the human penchant for prohibitions.
Another personal example is the case of my sister who met a man she liked and to satisfy my parents' demands and her understanding of Islam she said they could not sleep together unless they were married. So now after 7 years of marriage her husband leaves and says he was never happy after the first year but stayed with her all this time because he and she both valued the sanctity of marriage. Had they simply been together as boyfriend-girlfriend for a year or so they (he) would've realized that they weren't all that compatible after all. Now there's a s*** load of legal crap to sort through.
God is great,
Raz
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Peace lilyfleur
Additionally, I asked if any of you are aware of any Islamic sayings, or better yet, anything in the Koran where God tells us to withhold the judgment of our brothers and sisters.
When Gods talks about judging, he generally says that we should judge according to the book and equitably...and i don't think nail polish is mentioned in any sura It's more about judging between people that come to you with a problem to resolve.
If you want to check for yourself, why don't you use the browser on our home page, under quick links
lk
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Another personal example is the case of my sister who met a man she liked and to satisfy my parents' demands and her understanding of Islam she said they could not sleep together unless they were married.
Im wondering why does boyfriend-girlfriend relationship has to involve sleeping together? In my country Indonesia many people date for almost 10 years without ever having sex before getting married. I believe people should indeed date for quite a long time first in order to get to know each other before committing to get married but why does it have to involve sex?
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Raz
Another personal example is the case of my sister who met a man she liked and to satisfy my parents' demands and her understanding of Islam she said they could not sleep together unless they were married. So now after 7 years of marriage her husband leaves and says he was never happy after the first year but stayed with her all this time because he and she both valued the sanctity of marriage. Had they simply been together as boyfriend-girlfriend for a year or so they (he) would've realized that they weren't all that compatible after all. Now there's a s*** load of legal crap to sort through.
Well she is lucky she even get that leniancy, noway in any lifetime would my parents accept this.
jankren
Im wondering why does boyfriend-girlfriend relationship has to involve sleeping together? In my country Indonesia many people date for almost 10 years without ever having sex before getting married. I believe people should indeed date for quite a long time first in order to get to know each other before committing to get married but why does it have to involve sex?
I don't believe they have to, but people have desires so who else are they going to do it with? people aren't patient, they don't want to wait I think it's just an excuse to get it.
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"In my country Indonesia many people date for almost 10 years without ever having sex before getting married." Jankren, that is so romantic! And so powerful. Would you say that this in a very common practice in Indonesia, or have you just heard of a few people living this way? Sex can really ruin a lot between two people. I hope for a relationship someday that is based on everything that really matters (aka pleasing God). Sex makes people crazy because they do it to fulfill these really lowly desires. "It's a mystery", right? I mean it should be a spiritual experience, otherwise it's just yuk.
And Tanveer, I am really sorry I misread your post. I was feeling especially defensive that day (my first day back on free-minds for @ 1 1/2 yrs). So, so, so sorry. Peace, peace, peace.
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"In my country Indonesia many people date for almost 10 years without ever having sex before getting married." Jankren, that is so romantic! And so powerful. Would you say that this in a very common practice in Indonesia, or have you just heard of a few people living this way?
I suppose you have never been to Asia and experience the culture of the societies there, have you? What I said is true, this is why when the first time I came to USA I was kind of shocked of how 'sexual' the society in the country was. However, I also admit that more and more of our young people today have begun to embrace western culture and follow similar lifestyle due to media exposure especially in metropolitan cities.
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Peace my friend, 0
LoL your post is quite funny, well it made me laugh
lol, I am glad for that.
To you sex outside marriage isn?t detrimental, but that?s with your human logic, I believe it can be detrimental.
I believe it is a rule that is concrete.
Where did you go to come to that answer, is the answer something you concluded after giving thought to different variables? Unfourtanately, or fourtanately, while here on Earth I have my human logic, and if something does not feel right and/or make sense then I dont see a reason of going through with that choice.
Having babies is a blessing from God, you get pleasure out of sex also. You get pleasure out of a lot of other things also. Besides how is it turning your back away from God?s gifts? It?s rather using God?s gift appropriately and wisely. Not for the sack of your desires and wants.
I mean it is to turn your back on God's gifts when you deny yourself something that is heaven sent, I am not saying go out and be promiscuos or to do something that will ultimately bring detriment to you, what I am saying is for myself, in a relationship, I don't like to try and control the experience so much, but rather allow it to grow at its own rate, and I feel, for myself, that saying "Ok, lets have sex once we get married" is rather planning something that doesn't need to be planned, I'd rather let it occour naturally at its own pace, so maybe the first day I meet some one (lol, I know what your think'n!) or maybe seven years later, my main point is that I feel sex is naturally the outcome of a relationship (not any relationship again, lol, i know your thoughts ) and more than just the reason for it.
What?s the purpose of life, In your perspective?
Thats a humongous question! I honestly cant say, but what I feel a noble purpouse is is to pursue and allow that which brings you closer to God, that which brings soul growth. How about yourself, what do you feel the purpouse of life is?
People trust people doesn?t mean they won't do injustice.
I totally agree, but what I am saying is that when you have sex there is no way around not trusting the person your having sex with. Just as our relationship with God requires trust, so do all other relationships. If you do not trust a person, then why have sex with them?
I believe God tells us to stay away from some acts not ?someone?. And anyway you can look at what someone says and reason with it, and you follow the best of it.
But how do we hear God, if we hear God when we read the Quran then is it not through us that God speaks, for is it not us reading the quran? I agree that what ever advice we recieve we should weigh it with our best judgement.
Your heart uha yeh your heart desires and wants a lot.. you should follow it but take your brain with you. if your heart hates someone so much that would make you want to kill them would you? or would you use your brain and say that wouldn't be right?
No, I agree, the heart and mind make a great couple I am for the marriage of the heart and mind. I think Intuition, Intelligence and Instinct should work hand in hand, I am also in suppourt of their marriage.
What is islam?
In regards to my last answer, defining Islam as a peaceful state, I change that. To me, at this moment, surrender (submit) is a definition that makes alot of sense, and what I mean by surrender is putting down the shield (or call it a mask) that we carry and cover our selves with and allow whats within ourselves to be revealed, to be who we are.
Do you believe following the Quran is part of islam?
No, I do not believe that.
If not why not?
The quran is to me a messenger, whats important is the message and not the messenger, just like when you download music, the importance is not the web site you downloaded it from but the mp3 its self.
Following the Quran can be a part of Islam to some and to others just the opposite, the effect(s) it is promoting/amplifying in those individuals following it should be looked at, for me it was beneficial to a certain point, just like everyone needs a hand in standing on their own two, so it helped me grow in my relationship to God. And so for a certain stage it was helpful, but now I feel it would be to confining to follow it.
also if so then if it doesn?t promote fornication could it mean it isn?t as good as you think it is?
NEVER!! LOL To me, I would weigh love as the greatest factor in a relationship, not whether or not I am married. I think marriage has its place, but it is not more important than love.
Just because you are in a peaceful state it doesn?t mean it is good. People are in a peaceful state when they drink alcohol does that mean its good and you should gain pleasure from drinking it? I beleive that state is rather weak, than peaceful.
I agree.
why would you or anyone ever ever get married if you see no benefit in it?
I didn't say I see no benefit in marriage, however, I do believe that sex does not have to be regulated by marriage.
You marry a person for numerous reasons, love is one and you wouldn?t want to share pleasure of sex with others that you don?t love in my opinion because that just selfishness and just following your desires and being a submitter to that.
I never promoted that.
Why would Quran mention or even promote marriage if it's SOOOOO bad?
You have to consider any scripture, and who is it for? Do you give medicine to the sick or the healthy? Do you give guidance to those with guidance or those without guidance? Its written in the 'language' of the people it was revealed to, that is, it is written in terms that they can understand, its just like when you talk with a child, you would not converse in the same manner that you do when you talk with an adult. So it is written and including of concepts that the 'common people' are familiar with, but refining those concepts.
What's so bad about marriage?
nothing lol. Its a choice for each to make. I think its 'bad' when its forced on someone.
Do you think marriage is just saying I do and signing paper?
I dont, do you.
off course you choose freely, it doesn?t mean you don?t receive the consequences, you do in this life or in the hereafter.
I agree. Every choice has a consequence.
Tell me how does having sex with people make your life blossom?
lol, well you see... My words were taken out of context, I am saying if you choose to participate in activities that bring a beneficial growth to your being then your life will blossom. Sex with someone you care would make my life blossom.
Taking a body and then avoiding all experiences of earth life?? lol guess what!? there is a billion things to experience I bet you haven't even experience half.
lol, I am misunderstood maaan. I didn't say that, but consider that while here on earth there are certain responsibilities that a body entails, such as proper rest, a comfortable environment, consumption of food and using touch; it does not have to be sexual, it can be holding a hand, hugging a person, painting a smile (!???), but touch is our most developed ability, consider that for the first nine months in the womb we interact with the world through our feeling body, the water in the womb carasses our epidermis.
And pleasure doesn?t start and halt on sex.
I agree.
And the guidance lets us blossom in pleasure in the most just and appropriate ways )
I agree. But appropriate to each person, because thats subjective.
peace,
Khalil