Gods tests
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Peace ay,
The good news is you're thinking about the fundamentals, the core of your idealogy. This is fantastic and sure to bring you more guidance from your Creator.
The bad news is there is no simple, cut and dry, black and white answer to this great mystery. To add to brother Wakas' excellent replies, I can only say that you need to start from the beginning - keeping in mind the attributes of God. The Most Merciful and Most Forgiving would not create you knowing full well that your life of decisions will lead you directly to eternal suffering. So, there's one of 2 possibilities either there's no such thing as eternal suffering, or your destiny is not pre-written.
Another piece of advice is to cross-reference translations, study the roots, and meditate frequently. Does God guide whom He chooses irrespective of their choices, or are the ones God chooses the ones who chose to be guided? Say that 5 times really fast
3159 ? Once you have taken a decision, put your trust in Allah. Allah loves those who do their best and then trust in Allah
2186 And if My servants ask you about Me 'I am near, answering the calls (Du'a) of he who calls (Du'a) to Me, when he calls. Let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be properly led."
Peace,
Tay -
salam!
i was also wondering about why God in all His love and mercy would want us to "fear" him? i know that the quran talks about taqwagod-consciousness; but this is different eg. 240 ends with "have dread of me alone" or "fear none but me".... and there are other references to fearing God... this doesnt sit well with me! would we even want to have that kind of relationship with a parent? never mind the Creator!! or am i missing the point here compeletly??
wakas i think you are right- i need to reflect on things for myself! however your replies are great! much appreciated! i think just having some of my thoughts out there have pushed me into thinking about them - for a while now ive been trying to bury my head in the sand and be satisfied with the way i looked at things - but that is no longer an option for me and it just seems sometimes overwhelming when i look at the huge task i have ahead of me! and a little insight from people who are further down the road than i am is always reassuring!
tay thanks for your response! i do need to keep in mind the attributes of God and keep my faith in the knowledge that He guides those who seek the truth - i know this but i still worry at getting myself so completely lost!! but to meditate frequently is certainly a good idea also- i guess i need some practice with that one! i have a very short attention span!! i have been looking into all sorts of translations, and am brushing up on my arabic to look at the original which is always useful!
thanks for all your support anyways! )
peace and love
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peace ay
feel so glad to have found this forum (although it is turning me into a semi-hermit and internet addict! lol)
I can relate to that.
Anyway, I don't think anyone really has an answer to the questions you asked. Although Wakas did an admirable job with his answers. He's right about us being a cog in a machine.
I think the machine can just be our family, or our community, all of humanity, the planet earth, or the whole universe.
We can use the quran's message on several different levels.
I have to say that I don't understand where God comes into all of this. I don't quite understand what god is.
I don't understand either why we have to "fear" god. That just doesn't make much sense to me.
I would love to study the quran in depth, but there are a few things keeping me from doing that - my parents, and the fact that there are so many different translations which doesn't help because I have no knowledge of arabic either.
So right now I'm just going by what I observe and what conclusions I reach through all the thinking I do.And about God knowing our future. Well, "the futue is the present which continues..." (Raymond Domenech, manager of the French team).
You know your future. You know that if you keep doing what you are doing.
Those of us who understand how this world works, will know that if we do bad things, our future will be bad.
I know that if I keep travelling east, I will reach the Atlantic ocean, and then Europe. The future only changes when the present changes. If that makes sense.I think you've read enough to know that I am myself a very confused person. Which sucks, but it isn't a bad thing. I'd rather be confused and lost than be so sure of what I believe that I become blind to everything else.
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Peace ay, phoenix, all,
I just wanted to touch on fear a bit, since fear is what kept me from the qur'an for so long. As a kid, I always wanted to grasp and understand islam. I had a copy of the Yusuf Ali translation. Eveytime I tried to read it, I'd feel my heart thumping in my chest. I could never get through the second surah. All that mentioning of retribution and fear and agony - and there I was, not praying 5 times a day, not fasting, cursing, thinking about chicks, etc - had me deathly afraid of what God thought of me. It took me a long time to get back to the qur'an. I had to essentially walk around the world to open the gate next door.
Anyway, long story short, what I learned for myself is that all that talk of fear and retribution is not about God wanting us to fear him the way a person would fear a disciplinarian. It's about fearing the consequences of our actions. God is warning us, a blessing in itself, that whatever path you choose through life, there will certainly come a time when you will have no more time. And in that moment, you'll be able to see all the signs that you ignored or heeded, all the little decisions that swayed you one way or the other. Everything will be crystallized at once. And to sit there and look back at your life, if you didn't choose wisely, will be agony far beyond any pain or suffering this world can provide. Because you'll be able to see how you got where you are. You'll be able to see how simple and pure and easy it could have been. You'll see all the opportunities lost, all the moments you let your ego guide you instead of God. And you'll hate yourself for it.
On the flip side, if you chose wisely, you'll look back and see that everything you felt was right turned out to be right, every sacrifice you made chipped into the positive energy of the world, every good thought and good action brought good results. And that will be more gratifying and humbling and energizing than anything this world can provide.
So, it's not about God needing us to fear or love Him. It's about God wanting us to take seriously the cause and effects of our actions. No one is promised a day - so we really need to make every moment count. Just do the right thing as often as possible, keep God in mind, and be mindful of your duty to contribute however you can, and you'll have nothing to fear.
Peace,
Tay -
I'd rather be confused and lost than be so sure of what I believe that I become blind to everything else.
Yes!
It's about God wanting us to take seriously the cause and effects of our actions.
This is also a huge Quranic theme. In fact, if you have children, this is the one thing you must try to instill in them, so they appreciate the link between the two.
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Salam.
The Exalted God Almighty, The Most Merciful is testing us all the time and He, The Most Powerful, does not need us or anything nor anyone, The God Most High existed even before we existed and He Most Just existed before The Big Bang, right?
See?
The God Most High lives His own Etrenal Life and if The God decides to create a planet on which nothing will live except trees on the land and just 47 lakes with 75 red fishes in each, without any human on the land, then that is exactly how it is gonna be.The Exalted God The Most Powerful does what He wants and If God wants us to be on Erath in the year 2007, that is gonna happen, with the will of The God.
But we cannot live on this planet without any purpose or a final goal. We have to meet our end and receive the results of our work. We all work here on this planet, we eat, sleep, go to factories, love each other, fight, argue, talk and listen and millions of other thing.
Why?
Becase we can.
But. Huge but. All that we do, has a reason. First we have to be given the list of Rules. Yes, we have been given such a list, well, a Book of Rules. The Quran. The Deal is whoever does more GOOD then EVIL, then such a person reaches Paradise. Whoever does more EVIL then GOOD, then such a person goes to HellFire.
Simple.
The God could easily erase this whole thing we call The Milky Way without any warning.
I think that The Judgment Day will be The Biggest Event EVER.
Peace.
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salam thenabi...
i dont quite get what you mean? could you expand on that please? confusedhow does the story i am put in only expose me to myself - i dont understand what that means ???
i mean if you go through something that turns you away from God for whatever reason, how is it that we then will have complete understanding that we deserve what we get? I dont think anyone chooses to reject God out of spite or just because they want to - their life experiences have taken them down a road which leads them to question the existence of God... they did not choose those life experiences - it is just what was given to them. So if you then cant even believe in God, how will you feel your punishment is justified for not believing when it is those life experiences that God gave you that triggered it? does that make sense?
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Peace
how does the story i am put in only expose me to myself
Sorry I do not have my notes with me so I cannot referrence for you what I am going to say to you. All things you do, both hidden and shewn will be recorded in al/kitab, imprinted in it so to say. Like a movie (my rough equation) you'll be shown yourself. Unlike the film you will not only see the physical goings on but the inner goings on as clearly. So intention and action are both clear to you.
if you go through something that turns you away from God for whatever reason, how is it that we then will have complete understanding that we deserve what we get?
That in my understanding is based on the concept of pride. In these instances it'd probably be best to be patient and humble. You will probably deserve to get burned by the flame or hot pot or pan when you place your hand in/on it/them. You will also be the architect of your final product.
I dont think anyone chooses to reject God out of spite or just because they want to - their life experiences have taken them down a road which leads them to question the existence of God... they did not choose those life experiences - it is just what was given to them.
A question many people ask themselves. Who is God, what is God's purpose for me, et cetera? I'm sure people reject God because they want to. Me for instance. I reject (at times) certain points in His system simply because I do not have the heart to carry them out. I've come to see (from the narration of Moses and the man Traditionalists refer to as Al Khidr - the Green Man) that God only gives us what is meant to be for our good. The clearest examples to me come in the form of resources of many a kind, from wealth, to good healthy offspring to help in different matters. One can be humble and gracious and take advantage of these things for their own good. One may also become selfish, hoarding, and prideful because of the blessings. On the opposing end of the spectrum one may have less resources than desirable for anyone, children who have died in childhood, a broken home, a terrible job. The person can again be humble, understand the power of the Rabb (Lord, Sustainer - this is an important concept when dealing with power, pride, greed, hoarding, poverty and the like) or blame and descry their situation, lamenting, et cetera.
So if you then cant even believe in God, how will you feel your punishment is justified for not believing when it is those life experiences that God gave you that triggered it? does that make sense?
I think in all of our experience we can see the signs throughout and recognize the creator, sustainer, and bringer of death, and resurrector. To me all things are proof of a higher intellegence, the very creation of an organism like man in all His/Her complexities and the fact that we have sexes that flawlessly can come together in a moment of passion and be the bearers of more of their kind and the interralationship between the different species on earth the way the gases are all in equilibrium with the needs of the creatures, the plants providing food and oxygen, we feeding the plants with our exhalations and all the numerous relationships between all the different and complementary elements on this planet and off planet is totally amazing and points to a being with designs greater and more accurate and perfect than anything that man can do . What does not make sense is the people who fail to recognize this or will decry it as insanity.
Joe
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Peace ay, all,
Others have given some excellent answers already, and I would like to make a small contribution to one of the questions of how The God knows what is going to happen despite our free choice.
Imagine that you suddenly had access to a time machine and you travelled to the past and the future and saw all the actions of your friends and yourself and made a movie, and then travelled back to the past before any creation had existed and stored that movie. You will then be able to replay that movie and thus have the knowledge of all the actions even though you did not force those actions. The God is not bound by time the way we are and can see the past, present and future at the same time which explains His knowledge of our future actions, despite our free choice.
There are still some things that I don't know the answer to. I understand how The God is just, and why we are tested, but what I do not understand is what is the fault of the genetically deformed babies that are born that way ? I know they are a test for the others but what was their fault that they were forced to be like that all their life. Two possible answers are
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Maybe it is a big test for those souls and only The God in His infinite wisdom subjects them to it because He knows that those strong souls will be able to bear that burden.
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Another hypothesis I have is that The God asked all the souls to choose the time and environment of their test before coming here. Our souls choose to come to the earth at certain times in certain circumstances to be united with families that we had been soul mates with earlier in the spiritual realm. This was suggested by Bettie J. Eadie in her near death experience book "Embraced by the Light" http//embracedbythelight.com/index.htm
Thus the genetically deformed babies choose that particular physical environment for themselves before their arrival in this world. It is analogous to a student choosing the subject to study before going to the college or university.
The thing that puzzles me the most is that why The God created us to start with, knowing that some of us will end up in hell ? I know that He created us to serve Him for our own good, and that He does not need us to serve Him, and that serving Him is actually for our own benefit to live in this world in the best possible manner, and that it is our fault when we choose to do bad and slip up, and then we deserve the punishment, but why did The God create us in the first place knowing that some of us will end up suffering ? He knew that some of us will suffer in this life due to our own faults or because of the test and will then suffer in the life hereafter, so why create us in the first place knowing that some will suffer. If He had not created us then no one would have suffered, so His act of creation caused some suffering; why did He do it then ? Why did He give a part of Himself physical existence and then created neurons in that part and then made it sense the suffering ? Does it not seem a bit masochistic, God forbid ? Perhaps we will get the answer to this on the Last Day when we will be able to communicate with the Creator directly !
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Peace Tanveer, Thenabi, all,
The thing that puzzles me the most is that why The God created us to start with, knowing that some of us will end up in hell ? I know that He created us to serve Him for our own good, and that He does not need us to serve Him, and that serving Him is actually for our own benefit to live in this world in the best possible manner, and that it is our fault when we choose to do bad and slip up, and then we deserve the punishment, but why did The God create us in the first place knowing that some of us will end up suffering ? He knew that some of us will suffer in this life due to our own faults or because of the test and will then suffer in the life hereafter, so why create us in the first place knowing that some will suffer. If He had not created us then no one would have suffered, so His act of creation caused some suffering; why did He do it then ? Why did He give a part of Himself physical existence and then created neurons in that part and then made it sense the suffering ? Does it not seem a bit masochistic, God forbid ? Perhaps we will get the answer to this on the Last Day when we will be able to communicate with the Creator directly !
Yes thats how i feel too! I guess noone will know WHY till its too late for us anyways! or maybe this was all explained to us before we came to earth? who knows! I have a hard time getting to grips with peoples suffering in this life, and then knowing that people will get punished in the afterlife! Why would God make us, to let us suffer? I read once that our punishment in the afterlife is a form of purification for us - so that we can move on and be closer to God, only after we have been through some suffering - maybe thats true - often the people who suffer most are more spiritual and accepting of their fates than those who have it easy.... is there some sort of connection? Does suffering make you more susceptible and sensitive to Gods love and mercy? I think there must be some sort of correlation... its like you can only know real happiness if you have been through sorrow - your emotions are somehow heightened perhaps... i dont know... just contemplating out loud thats all!
Thenabi,
You said I'm sure people reject God because they want to
I must disagree with this... someone very close to me is battling with himself at the moment desperately not wanting to reject God, but he simply cannot make sense of it all... its so painful to watch him go through this, because while I question certain aspects of my faith, I have never doubted the existence of God... whereas he is so confused and at the moment thinks there is a 50-50 chance of God existing or not.... how then do you talk to someone about Gods love and mercy, and give them examples from the Quran, when they are not sure yet that He is real?! But sometimes I think deep down he knows God is real, but is angry with Him, for so many things so would rather believe that no God exists than an all-merciful God who would allow such suffering... he'd never admit to that though! not yet! So maybe you are right - they reject God because they want to! Oh its so confusing! I dont know a thing!
And Tay,
thanks for your input... what you say about God wanting us to fear him makes sense
"It's about fearing the consequences of our actions."
I started thinking about it on a smaller scale... as a child when we do something wrong, we know we will face punishment, so we fear that, and not the person perpetuating our punishment!
But then why isnt it phrased that way in the Quran? Why is it "fear God" not "fear the consequences" or "fear Gods retribution" or something? -
Peace ay, all,
thanks for your input...
And thanks for the stimulating questions handshake
what you say about God wanting us to fear him makes sense
"It's about fearing the consequences of our actions." I started thinking about it on a smaller scale... as a child when we do something wrong, we know we will face punishment, so we fear that, and not the person perpetuating our punishment! But then why isnt it phrased that way in the Quran? Why is it "fear God" not "fear the consequences" or "fear Gods retribution" or something?The answer, I feel, is in the goal of the book itself. The qur'an is for all people for all time. And we all have our own approach to studying it's guidance. Some people (like kids) need to be warned with a beating and rewarded with candy. Others get the point by just explaining to them. My mind, as God created it, doesn't accept the beating and candy. So, I need to read the words and then go and live and see how those words apply in everyday life.
Through real-life application and examination, the words take on new meaning when I return to them.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tanveer, all,
He knew that some of us will suffer in this life due to our own faults or because of the test and will then suffer in the life hereafter, so why create us in the first place knowing that some will suffer.
That is certainly the most difficult question to make peace with. I still insist that part of the answer has to do with God not intervening since the dawn of life. He created the spark and then allows the fire to run it's course. Any intervention would be unjust to the rest. And the second part, the suffering, may have something to do with the ripple effect of our actions and thoughts in a sea of energy that we call the universe. Just as positive energy interacts with the entire universe, so too does the negative. Perhaps that's a glimpse of the eternal suffering or bliss. Maybe all the negative energy will be left here to deteriorate with the universe, while the positive returns to a higher plane. I guess we'll never really know until we're shown the truth.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
Just a point to consider concerning human's suffering
Not only humans that suffer; animals also suffer, even more that human, at least we are equiped with an amazing tool - the mind - that enables us to diminish the amount of suffering or even to eliminate it. So we should be grateful.
One should stop complaining about any and every difficulty he may encounter during his life. It seems to me that the simple fact that we are able to eat when hungry, as most on this planet do, is enough to be thankful to the creator. Those who are starving are victimes of human's egoism, not of the god's indifference, for he has made enough provisions for all of his creation.
And also, there is no evolution without suffering, there would be no reason for evolution or progress.
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Peace someone,
I'm not sure who was complaining about any and every difficulty, but whoever he is, I agree that he should stop. Where I disagree is in suggesting that animals suffer more than humans. I don't think one can say either way without speculating. Yes we have minds, but with the mind comes the stress of thought. It's a blessing and a curse
Peace,
Tay -
Peace ay,
But then why isnt it phrased that way in the Quran? Why is it "fear God" not "fear the consequences" or "fear Gods retribution" or something?
I think it is an idiomatic expression. Just like if I tell a kid to "fear your parents" and don't do this otherwise you will be grounded by them, I am not telling the kid to actually fear the parents, but to fear the grounding part.
I agree with Tay, that fear of retribution is for the "kids" among us. When one is spiritually more evolved, one does good deeds out of love for The God and one's fellow creation, and not because one is gonna get a candy or be spanked !!
Yes thats how i feel too! I guess noone will know WHY till its too late for us anyways! or maybe this was all explained to us before we came to earth? who knows! I have a hard time getting to grips with peoples suffering in this life, and then knowing that people will get punished in the afterlife! Why would God make us, to let us suffer? I read once that our punishment in the afterlife is a form of purification for us - so that we can move on and be closer to God, only after we have been through some suffering - maybe thats true - often the people who suffer most are more spiritual and accepting of their fates than those who have it easy.... is there some sort of connection? Does suffering make you more susceptible and sensitive to Gods love and mercy? I think there must be some sort of correlation... its like you can only know real happiness if you have been through sorrow - your emotions are somehow heightened perhaps... i dont know... just contemplating out loud thats all!
I think that the answer lies in the following verse
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
I think when humans were created and given free choice, they were informed of all the possible consequences including the possible suffering in the earthly life and the life thereafter, and we all consented using our free choice. I think that we also were informed about the consequences of free choice and we accepted that also knowingly, so everything was an informed consent.
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Peace Tay,
You are right, I was only speculating and I am probably wrong, because now thinking about it, animals are more in tune with the system or nature or the laws of the god, more than humans, so they (the animals) should be sufering less.
But the human species have dominated all other animals..... so ???
