How far should we trust our Logic and Reasoning
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Salam All,
I have been sunni-trained all my life to limit my logic and reason and not to question certain things that are "established" truths in the sunni belief. I am sure 99% of all religions today teach their followers to limit their instincts/ logic/ reasoning/ questioning. I had also been quoted some verses of the Quran (from chapter 2, I think) that discourage questioning.
When I started reading Quranic translation for the first time after having read the Arabic text for decades many time in my life without understanding any sentence, I started to see that there are many verses asking us to think/ apply/ logic/ understand/ ponder. I remember reading about Ibrahim that he reached the true GOD by logic and reasoning after considering the possibility of stars, sun etc being the god. (can someone be kind enough to point me to that exact verse. I will be thankfull).
When I start using logic / reasoning, I find that I sometime start to go astray. Sometime, I start to doubt the existance of God or the authencity of any religion at all. I read arguments of athiests and sometimes some of these make sense (I have to agree that most of the times they dont). I am a scientist by nature and profession and my results of OneGOD-vs-NoGod logic comes to 95%-5% ratio. Since the answer to this question is either a yes or a no, I think that the 5% is only due to the lack of my understanding / limited intelligence. I hope I am not confusing everyone.
The quesiton is Should I be thinking like that. If I start applying logic, I start to question basic beliefs. If I dont apply logic, I fall into the blind-faith trap.
What should I do?
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Peace Neo2ths,
welcome
You will probably find a lot of supportive, intelligent peole here who can help you. I'm new to Islam (2 yrs), so I'm not able to offer you much in the way of specific Quranic guidance. However, I think that if you're conflicted about something, God wants you to ask questions. Personally, I've found it better to be at peace with my understandings. I always remember though that no matter how convinced I am that I finally "get it", there is bound to be a lot more that I've not yet been shown. Also, I always make a point of asking God for forgiveness if I'm wrong, and for His help in finding the correct answer. All the best to you, and again welcome.
Take care,
lilyfleur -
Peace Neo2,
Coming from experience, I'd say that you need to find the boundaries of logical thought and see if your mind accepts something beyond that. Logic and science certainly have their vital place, but there are limits. And then that's where imagination comes in. We can imagine far beyond what logic dictates, and that is a blessing. IMO, the 2 can coalesce beautifully, but either one, on it's own, will give you an incomplete picture.
What I've found, and continue to learn, is that life is a delicate balance and it takes work and remembrance to maintain that balance. We should be constantly refining ourselves with the awareness that no one idea or idealogy can truly capture truth. Keeping that in mind helps us avoid getting too enamoured with one idea and trying to fit the entire universe into that one idea. It keeps us from extremism.
The beauty of the qur'an is that it appeals to all minds. Some find guidance in imagining and believing that the seas were opened for Musa and his people by God only to swallow pharoah and his crew. Others find the guidance in the symbolism therein. And yet others find guidance in the logical approach that Musa knew the timing of the tides and took advantage of that knowledge. In all three perspectives, the message is not lost.
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. How on earth can you explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love? Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity." -Albert Einstein
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "Neo2this",
Your initial approach of scientific and rational thought was the right way IMHO. What ?Tay? says seems to be more emotional rather than rational. Saying things like ?there are things beyond ??logic and reasoning and that is a ???blessing???? does not make any sense at all and is definitely not what GOD wants. This is what id call superstition, is very, very dangerous and is what lead to all these various corrupt religions. So I say, do your utmost to hold on to the scientific method as you?ve been doing and as is supported by the Quran. As for the love part all that can be xplained rationally. Love is a complex feeling created by various hormones and neural activity. It is a system which GOD built and if that system is destroyed theres no more love. GOD Bless! -
peace
I think that we shouldn't be afraid of questioning anything. It's a good thing when we doubt the existence of god and the veracity of the quran, etc.
"The important thing is never to stop questioning." - Einstein.
I think that reason and logic are the only way we can verify things. But imagine is equally important. "Imagination is more important than knowledge" said Einstein, and he was right.
If we are too rational, then we get stuck in the "real world." We can't think outside the box. When Einstein thought up his concept of gravity, he didn't say "that's impossible." Instead, he accepted the idea and it was eventually verified.
I think that no matter how weird something feels, we need to give it a try. We can't judge knowledge based on how much sense it makes, but we need to verify everything to see if it's true or not. -
Peace Neo2, jonnyk, all,
Neo2, thanks for the kind words.
Jonnyk, you're staring to worry me with your comments such as "...definitely not what GOD wants." As I stated to Neo2, we should beware of this kind of extremism. It stunts your growth. You don't think imagination is a blessing? Where would your science be without imagination? Aren't you the same jonnyk that wants to fly into outerspace to find plasma beings? Is that verified, or imagined?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "Tay" and "phoenix",
I think theres been a misunderstanding once more. I never condemned imagination but the claim that there are thingd BEYOND REASON. Imagination if it is rational and reasnable i.e. doesnt violate causality like a magician in the sky, is absolutely fine. When i use my imagination to understand aliens or jinn for example i use reason and logic i.e. i think how the particles which theyr made coulve assembled under what enviromental conditions etc. I dont just say "GOD did it. Period" or "came there by magic". This is what ive comdemned. GOD Bless! -
PEace Bro JohnnyK
Do you really know for sure what jinn or aliens are? Or if there are any? You may think that your idea of them is very rational and very reasonable but in reality it could be way off. (not saying that it is or isn't) So in the end, if that were the case, then your "hypothesis" would have been all a figment of your imagination.
Don't you agree also that there are certain things that are beyond our capabilities to understand? I believe logic can only take us so far. We can't explain the "whys" and "hows" of everything. And if we try, we'll fall short.
Also, science only explains half the picture, bro. For example, what comes first the hormone or the thought or emotion? Did your feelings of love trigger hormones to be secreted or was it a trigger of hormones that made you fall in love with the first person you laid eyes on? Is it really a clear-cut case if you only look at science to answer that?
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Peace sister "BOOST",
PEace Bro JohnnyK
Do you really know for sure what jinn or aliens are? Or if there are any? You may think that your idea of them is very rational and very reasonable but in reality it could be way off. (not saying that it is or isn't) So in the end, if that were the case, then your "hypothesis" would have been all a figment of your imagination.
JK- Aliens by definition are beings which reside outside the planet earth. Jinn according to my understanding of the Quran are beings made essentially from plasma and they may reside here on earth as well as outer space. Yes this is a hypotheisis based on a certain understanding of the Quran just like the bigbang used to be before its discovery. And yes if proven wrong then its wrong but that doesnt mean that the hypothesis itself is irrational. However if i made a hypotheis tht theres some magicaian in the sky who waves a magic wand and hence things come into being then that is entirely irrational and should be outright rejected since it violates causality. Another example would be to say GOD can create another god whos more powerful than Himself. This too can come up in imagination but it aint logical and hence must be rejected.
Don't you agree also that there are certain things that are beyond our capabilities to understand? I believe logic can only take us so far. We can't explain the "whys" and "hows" of everything. And if we try, we'll fall short.
JK- I certainly believe that there are finite things(everything but GOD) that we do not yet understand but would do so in the future GW. Understanding GOD completely(not the essence of His substance which Hes Himself mentioned in the QUran i.e. Light) would take infinite time and hence would never be achieved but what can be understood clearly is that nothing violates causality and tht He aint a magician.
Also, science only explains half the picture, bro. For example, what comes first the hormone or the thought or emotion? Did your feelings of love trigger hormones to be secreted or was it a trigger of hormones that made you fall in love with the first person you laid eyes on? Is it really a clear-cut case if you only look at science to answer that?
JK- What comes first are the impulses from the neurons. Those then secret hormones. This all happens very quickly so that the result is a feeling of love. If certain parts of your brains are damaged youd be unable to love or even tell the difference between right and wrong. GOD Bless!
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PEace Bro
JK- What comes first are the impulses from the neurons. Those then secret hormones. This all happens very quickly so that the result is a feeling of love. If certain parts of your brains are damaged youd be unable to love or even tell the difference between right and wrong. GOD Bless!
And what triggered the neurons? Was it the sight of a person, or a thought, or what exactly?
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Peace sister "BOOST",
PEace Bro
And what triggered the neurons? Was it the sight of a person, or a thought, or what exactly?
JK- Yes the neurons could be triggered by visual and/or audio patterns which are processed by the brain. Indeed certain patterns are found more attractive by the brain than others and a complex pattern of attractiveness then leads to what we call love. GOD Bless!
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PEace Bro Johnny
Ok so if it's by sight, wouldn't you have to have an emotion attached to that sight? Attractiveness is so subjective
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Salam All,
I have been sunni-trained all my life to limit my logic and reason and not to question certain things that are "established" truths in the sunni belief. I am sure 99% of all religions today teach their followers to limit their instincts/ logic/ reasoning/ questioning. I had also been quoted some verses of the Quran (from chapter 2, I think) that discourage questioning.
When I started reading Quranic translation for the first time after having read the Arabic text for decades many time in my life without understanding any sentence, I started to see that there are many verses asking us to think/ apply/ logic/ understand/ ponder. I remember reading about Ibrahim that he reached the true GOD by logic and reasoning after considering the possibility of stars, sun etc being the god. (can someone be kind enough to point me to that exact verse. I will be thankfull).
When I start using logic / reasoning, I find that I sometime start to go astray. Sometime, I start to doubt the existance of God or the authencity of any religion at all. I read arguments of athiests and sometimes some of these make sense (I have to agree that most of the times they dont). I am a scientist by nature and profession and my results of OneGOD-vs-NoGod logic comes to 95%-5% ratio. Since the answer to this question is either a yes or a no, I think that the 5% is only due to the lack of my understanding / limited intelligence. I hope I am not confusing everyone.
The quesiton is Should I be thinking like that. If I start applying logic, I start to question basic beliefs. If I dont apply logic, I fall into the blind-faith trap.
What should I do?
The argument which convinces one will be different for each person in many cases.
For me the most convincing arguments are firstly the non-existence of actual infinities within the created universe. That being the case all matter and time are finite and therefore had an initial cause. I believe that cause to be the God.
Now the most common so-called argument against this is... if the God caused the universe then what caused God?
This question might appear conclusive however it is flawed. The reason it is flawed is that it is extending a law - the law of causality which is part and parcel of the created universe to things 'external' to it. Causality exists within this universe and cannot be automatically assumed for things other than the universe. So the question cannot be applied in this way.
Atheists also put forward the probability argument where this universe is merely the one 'trial' which has actually worked out of an infinity of possible universes coming about. In this scenario they are again making a flawed argument. Why? Because they are projecting the features of TIME and CHANCE which are entities within this created universe to things other than it. The thing (dimension) called time does not exist outside of this universe. Chance is something definable within this universe and cannot be assumed to exist other than within it and its laws.
The other argument which is convincing for me is the probability of things like even single proteins arising out of chance alone. Single proteins can have hundreds to thousands of amino acids which are coded in our DNA. The precise order of these protein molecules is exquisite and there are thousands of different proteins which interact in very subtle and involved ways.
Now how did these proteins come about? Where did the information come from to code and assemble them?
Try a simple exercise. Take 60 balls numbered from 1 to 60 and put them in a bag. What are the chances that one will draw the numbers out of the bag in the precise order such that all the numbers are sequential ie. 1, 2, 3, 4... 60 ?
There is only one way to select the first ball... the number 1, so that is a chance of 1 in 60. The second number must be drawn precisely as the number 2 so that means 1 in 59 (one ball is gone already), etc. That means the chance is...
1 in 60! (! means factorial = 60 x 59 x 58 x 57 .... x 1) = 8.321 x 10^81
That number 10^81 a 1 with 81 zeros behind it...
1 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000
is actually as many protons in the known universe!! So getting the correct order of 60 balls through a random draw is like finding ONE unique proton out of all the protons in the entire universe!
Now that would represent the chance for one protein with 60 amino acid bases having the right order. Most proteins have hundreds of bases and some have thousands. What of those and the thousands of other proteins just assembling out of chance into the right orders?
I hope the enormity of what it means that the universe and life emerged due to chance has dawned upon everyone.
Regards.
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Peace "tay",
Peace jonny,
And you claim to know what God definately wants. That's 2 misnomers. Please let Neo2 have his thread back.
Peace,
TayJK- Sorry there i was getting emotional, which is a part of human nature by the way. A more correct statement would be with high probability GOD wants this. If next time i make such a stament you can take it for granted that i always mean with high prob never absolute certainty. GOD Bless!
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salaam neo2this,
listen, i completely understand! i used to have the same troubles, here is my suggestion
always ask/seek for the "why"? if someone can't provide an explanation for you, you can make up an explanation, and with time the more you think about it, the more it becomes clearer to you. one day someone asked Issac Newton, "how are you able to discover so many things in such a short lifetime? Newton replied, by thinking about it night and day". the more you think about something, the more you try to connect, the more clearer a subject becomes. i havn't found any verses in the quran which limits "my options/choices". life is about the choices you take and make, which is a derived from your desires and what you believe.
the reason why the sunnis(in general) don't intellectually examine the aspects of life is because they believe that five pillars of islam is the gateway to heaven and we don't need to get involved too much in this life because this life is limited and afterlife is eternal. since we should believe in the unseen, it is bargain well worth the taking, since stating once again, that this life is limited and the afterlife is eternal. the more you examine yourself, the better (at least clearer) things become to you.
another suggestion, try meditation, like try at least half an hour each day. just sit in your quiet place(like your bedroom) and think about nothing, and virtually nothing for about ten minutes, three times a day, see what pops out of your mind. chances are that whatever pops in your mind first(while you are busy trying to think about nothing) is what you care about the most in life or what you take into consideration THE MOST in your life. i am not sure if it is true for everybody but it is true for me.
one more thing, try to get a unified general idea of life, like lets say try to define everything under one umbrella. and remember, patience is the key, (in our paradigm, it is time )
God can only judge me on what i have typed if it is indeed accurate or not.
peace, rifat
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Peace sis "BOOST",
PEace Bro Johnny
Ok so if it's by sight, wouldn't you have to have an emotion attached to that sight? Attractiveness is so subjective
JK- Wht do you mean by emotion attached to that sight? Emotions are FORMED AS A RESULT OF COMPLEX NEURAL IMPULSES, didnt i explain that be those stimulated through sight, hearing, thermal heat touching the skin, etc? When any of these rech your senses in a particular way meaning hitting at a particular angle and speed i.e. velocity, those are then converted into electrical signals in the nerves of those sensors(eyes,ears,touch sensors in skin), sent to the brain to various regions which have ALREADY PRESENT infomation, gained from past experience, in them already, and thats where your subjectiveness comes in. Then in accordance with that preinformation, based on deviance or relatedness to what is present, attraction is formed more or less. If the attractiveness reaches a certain degree of high complexity then ultimately something called love is formed. GOD Bless!
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Peace Oben,
I hope the enormity of what it means that the universe and life emerged due to chance has dawned upon everyone.
You had me at "infinities within the created universe" ;D
btw, it's good to hear from you. I hope all is well with you and your family.Peace,
Tay