The difference between approaching Quran as a Deen or as a Religion
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Salam Arnold,
Mer?i!
Can I ask you this simple question where did you obtain your knowledge on what the majority of people believe?
Most people believe that Revelations as the Quran were send to mankind mainly to erase idolatry from the people. That Allah was angry with people for not thanking Him. That our life is about worshipping God, and that He gets angry when we believe in gods beside Him. That we attain Paradise by just believing in Allah alone. True monotheism is enough to be a Muslim and to gain Paradise.
adjwi
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Salaam Aleikum,
Adjwi and Almar, I don't know how much sarcasm went into your posts, and thus if I really should react to it ) But if you doubt my conclusions, 90% of all religious people will say Revelations were send to restore the acknowledgement of God, to restore 'man's bond with God', that this is the nr1 reason for Revelation. Ask any religious person, no matter what faith.
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Peace Bro Yasin
I do not Doubt your Sincerity but you are an Intelligent person as well . If One quoted a Statistic, One should be able to inform the Readers as To How This Stats were Obtained as I am sure you would not just Pluck It from the Sky . Also if you did a Research on the Subject ...What was the Method of the Research ?
Cheers
almarh0m
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Peace all,
Arnold, what I appreciated about your presentation was the attention you gave to unity, particularly the actions of Aaron. I value that point of view. I hadn't noticed that aspect before and so I consider myself enriched from your observation. That's why I wrote
Mer?i!
However I am calling for your attention with respect to your method. I can't and won't swallow it.
When we learn these most important words from Aaron, we will know the true and correct approach to the Quran
The real purpose of the Quran is
This is the correct approach to the Quran and to it's teachings.
We must all approach the Quran from this point, and then the true meanings of words become clear.
In brief what you are saying is the majority of believers, then 90% of the religious believers have it wrong but you have it right and we better get on board the arch with you. Well Noah was right and the others dead wrong so did that lead to right till the hereafter? Take a look at Abraham to see...
Historically, humanity is many centuries past this adolescent method of right and wrong. Never-the-less I must say to you is this; I believe you are wrong, I believe you are dead wrong, absolutely wrong yet relatively right. Does this approach work? Do you think we should build an arch together?
Thus, when you say
So the Unity of a people goes above the right concept of Allah.
This would mean that although Trinity is a wrong concept of Allah, but in taking your lead, that wrong concept of Allah should be maintained?
It is clear the Quran is focussed on us, not on Allah.
Why then did Allah place the word 'Allah' clearly in majority of all other words that is included in the quran? Where's the focus I ask?
When reflecting about light, when in light, one can say light is everywhere.
Reflecting more about light, one can notice two directions for light where the light goes and where the light comes from.
In deciding on a right direction with respect to light, where should one orient themself?
Where should be the focus?adjwi
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Peace all,
In brief what you are saying is the majority of believers, then 90% of the religious believers have it wrong but you have it right and we better get on board the arch with you. Well Noah was right and the others dead wrong so did that lead to right till the hereafter? Take a look at Abraham to see...No, this is what you make of it. This is your interpretation of my intentions. So because you believe you are right on what my intention is, I should really think like you think I think? If you disagree, you should base it on evidence, not on these personal ideas of what you think my intention is.
I gave my conclusions, and showed them. Did I say people are wrong and thus go to Hell? No, I say we must reflect on what Allah gives for clues in the Quran and rethink our interpretation.
Historically, humanity is many centuries past this adolescent method of right and wrong. Never-the-less I must say to you is this; I believe you are wrong, I believe you are dead wrong, absolutely wrong yet relatively right. Does this approach work? Do you think we should build an arch together?
Is humanity past this? Yes? Go ask the oridnary Muslim or Christian. They will tell you that the God-man relationship is more important then the man-man relationship.
Thus, when you say
This would mean that although Trinity is a wrong concept of Allah, but in taking your lead, that wrong concept of Allah should be maintained?Please read the article again. Then you will see I don't say this. This is what I say
When a people turn to a false idol or idols, it takes time for them to divide. In the first periods they are still united, as their self-made idol hasn't clashed with Reality yet. Only after a long period will people divide as the first idol-concept clashed with Reality, and so a new one is made to try again to confirm Reality with it. Each time they will fail, and keep on creating their concept of Reality. People's concepts of Reality will differ over time, and then they become divided.
If the Prophet Aaron would have attacked them on their idolatry immediately and without Moses's help, their would be a great risk in loosing the authority they had over them. They would have divided among themselves, to people who would have listened to Aaron and those who wouldn't. This break up would be disasterous for the Mission of Aaron and Moses.
A people who just have created a new idol are still united, but also can be quickly reformed when you give them the correct concept of Reality and thus of Allah.So your question would not have been asked if you truly understood the article. Please read a couple more times.
Why then did Allah place the word 'Allah' clearly in majority of all other words that is included in the quran? Where's the focus I ask?
He gives us the true concept of Reality. He is Reality, Haq. So to follow the Divine Laws correctly, we must first understand Reality. Also we must accept He can be the only Lawmaker. Allah is needless, and thus He doesn't need acknowledgement, but we must acknowledge Him, why then? It is for us. What does acknowledging Allah do for us? It will make our perception of Reality greater. We base our man-man relationship on what we believe the God-man relationship is. So first we must learn the God-man relationship before we can act correctly between each other.
So again the God-man relationship is given to develop the man to man relationship in the best way.
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Salaam alaikum Arnold,
A people who just have created a new idol are still united, but also can be quickly reformed when you give them the correct concept of Reality and thus of Allah.
Can you give me a real example of such occurrance?
As for the value of maintaining unity, I agree that the value is real. However, such value is limited, relative, and certainly not absolute in time.
Now what do you make of this
4213 He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus "You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it." Intolerable for those who have set up partners is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.
and this
4326 And when Abraham said to his father and his people "I am innocent of that which you worship."
4327 "Except for the One who initiated me, He will guide me."
4328 And he made it a word to last in his subsequent generations; perhaps they may turn back
?All praise is to Allah.
adjwi
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Peace Arnold Yasin
Could you please inform us How you arrived at the Conclusion that, Hajj is an annual Event? Are you aware of 2197 " For Hajj is Months well known........................" or as usual you just chose to ignore this Fact to promote your Own Views on the Subject?
So this means Hajj is an Yearly International Debate to solve conflicts and to better Mankind. It is not focussed on Allah, but on us.
Your Lengthy Sermon might look and sounds good to your own Eyes and Ears , but please Do not try to Mislead people here . Many of us are here to Learn and Share our Knolwledge with others with 1736 in mind , so if you have any conviction in your belief that Hajj is a Yearly event, Please provide some relevant Quran Verse or Verses to back it up .
Thank you
almarh0m
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Salaam alaikum Arnold,
Can you give me a real example of such occurrance?
As for the value of maintaining unity, I agree that the value is real. However, such value is limited, relative, and certainly not absolute in time.
You can see this with any sect. For example in the Salafi movement, in the last 3 years 5 new sects have emerged from that young movement. When groups are formed around idols, in this case a sect-leader. Eventualy over time the group will split up in to more fractions, as their observations of reality clash with their beliefs, frictions on leadership, and thus they form new groups and make up new rules and beliefs.
4213 He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus "You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it." Intolerable for those who have set up partners is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.
Again look at my quote
A people who just have created a new idol are still united, but also can be quickly reformed when you give them the correct concept of Reality and thus of Allah.
They first must be reformed into the correct idea of Allah's Oneness before they can join again in creating the System. You believe reforming people in such way is impossible?
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Peace Arnold Yasin
Could you please inform us How you arrived at the Conclusion that, Hajj is an annual Event? Are you aware of 2197 " For Hajj is Months well known........................" or as usual you just chose to ignore this Fact to promote your Own Views on the Subject?
Your Lengthy Sermon might look and sounds good to your own Eyes and Ears , but please Do not try to Mislead people here . Many of us are here to Learn and Share our Knolwledge with others with 1736 in mind , so if you have any conviction in your belief that Hajj is a Yearly event, Please provide some relevant Quran Verse or Verses to back it up .
Salaam,
It seems very clear Almar you are not here to learn by this reply. You condemn and accuse and speak in a non-peaceful tone, and speak as if you belong to the majority in a 'we, the forum, against you, arnold' fashion. You know you cannot speak in such ways. You start with 'peace' but end in accusation. Very sorry to see this behaviour. I believe it is more about me then on what I say, but that doesn't matter. I hope you will end up seeing the childish behaviour will not progress your Self's.
As for Hajj, the root means 'to argue'. This is also the way it has been used in the Quran. Some examples
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Line83 Wa-itha laqoo allatheena amanooqaloo amanna wa-itha khalabaAAduhum ila baAAdin qaloo atuhaddithoonahumbima fataha Allahu AAalaykum liyuhajjookumbihi AAinda rabbikum afala taAAqiloonaBehold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say "We believe" But when they meet each other in private, they say "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)?
And when they meet the believers, they say, "We believe," but when they get together with each other, they say, "Do not inform (the believers) of the information given to you by GOD, lest you provide them with support for their argument concerning your Lord. Do you not understand?"
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Line146 Qul atuhajjoonana fee Allahiwahuwa rabbuna warabbukum walana aAAmalunawalakum aAAmalukum wanahnu lahu mukhlisoonaSay Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?
Say, "Do you argue with us about GOD, when He is our Lord and your Lord? We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. To Him alone we are devoted."
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Line265 Alam tara ila allathee hajjaibraheema fee rabbihi an atahu Allahualmulka ith qala ibraheemu rabbiya allatheeyuhyee wayumeetu qala ana ohyeewaomeetu qala ibraheemu fa-inna Allahaya/tee bialshshamsi mina almashriqi fa/ti biha minaalmaghribi fabuhita allathee kafara waAllahula yahdee alqawma alththalimeenaHast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted him power? Abraham said "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said "I give life and death". Said Abraham "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.
Have you noted the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord, though GOD had given him kingship? Abraham said, "My Lord grants life and death." He said, "I grant life and death." Abraham said, "GOD brings the sun from the east, can you bring it from the west?" The disbeliever was stumped. GOD does not guide the wicked.
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Line313 Fa-in hajjooka faqul aslamtu wajhiyalillahi wamani ittabaAAani waqul lillatheena ootooalkitaba waal-ommiyyeena aaslamtum fa-inaslamoo faqadi ihtadaw wa-in tawallaw fa-innama AAalaykaalbalaghu waAllahu baseerun bialAAibadiSo if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.
If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply submitted myself to GOD; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people.
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Line358 Ya ahla alkitabi lima tuhajjoonafee ibraheema wama onzilati alttawratuwaal-injeelu illa min baAAdihi afalataAAqiloonaYe People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?
O followers of the scripture, why do you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Do you not understand?
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Line359 Ha antum haola-i hajajtumfeema lakum bihi AAilmun falima tuhajjoona feemalaysa lakum bihi AAilmun waAllahu yaAAlamu waantumla taAAlamoonaAh! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!
You have argued about things you knew; why do you argue about things you do not know? GOD knows, while you do not know.
You will see that ALL uses of Hajja has to do with argue/dispute/argument. So my conclusion is that the word Hajj itself must also be approached as such, and not as Pilgrimage.
It also means 'to cure a wound on the head' as seen in Lane's
.~, (TA,) He probed
a fracture of the head, (],) or a wound,,
signifies he probed a fracture of his head for thke
purpose of curing itIt also means a year
_, in four place. - Also A
year (S, Msb, V pl. r .. (S,A, MNb.)
You say, i o ,. .i-l , andl .L..b i.This can also been seen in the verse
2827 He (the father) said, "Behold, I am willing to let you marry one of these two daughters of mine on the understanding that you will remain eight years in my service. Then if you make it ten,.....
So we have the Quranic use of Hajja as 'to argue/dispute/argument/debate' and as a 'year'. So Hajj can be thus interpretated as a Yearly Debate. This is held in the known months, which are also given in the Quran.
2194 You may fight during the Months of Peace and Security if you are attacked, for, a violation of sanctity will activate the Law of Just Retribution. So, the one who attacks you should expect retaliation in like manner. Be mindful of Allah, and know that Allah is with those who walk aright.
95 When the four Sacred Months are over and if the idolaters are still aggressing, (neither becoming law-abiding citizens of the State, nor emigrating), subdue them whichever tribe they may belong to, take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent from aggression, and help in the consolidation of the Divine System and in setting up the Just Economic Order of Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Forgiving Merciful (so shall you be).
936 Allah has ordained twelve months in one year. This has been Allahs Ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of these Months are Sacred, forbidden for all warfare. (Mankind, through international treaties, must agree to shun all kind of warfare during these four months. This will give them a cooling off period that sense may prevail over emotions). This is the Firm Religion, the right way. So, do not wrong yourselves by fighting during the Sacred Months. However, you may fight the idolaters in any or all these months if they fight against you in any or all of them (2194). And know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (Four Sacred Months 2194, 91-5).
To know the 4 months is a long discussion, which is already given on this forum in other discussions.
But it is clear that we have 4 months of Peace. The subject is that the idolaters must stop the aggression. All of Mankind is asked to perform the Hajj, not just the Muslims. The meaning of Hajja is used in the Quran as Year and as 'to argue/dispute/argument/debate'. The word also means 'to go for an aim/to partake on a noble cause'. Also it refers to 'probing and curing wounds on heads'.
All of these together shows me that Hajj means a Yearly Global Debate that is meant to stop wars on Earth, by probing the issue and through discussion curing it.
I have used the Quran to explain it, and not loosing view on the global goal of the Quran. The Quran is meant to make a collective unity of Mankind based on the Divine Laws of Nature and Revelation. This is not done through personal salvation rituals as Pilgrimage.
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Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatunfaman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi
ALHJ AShHaR MAoLWMAT FMN FRDdh FYHaN ALHJ FLA RFTh WLA FSWF WLA JDAL FY ALHJ WMA TFAoLWA MN KhYR YAoLMHa ALLHa WTZWDWA FAN KhYR ALZAD ALTQWY WATQWN YA AWLY ALALBAB
The pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the Hajj therein (let him remember that) there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the Hajj. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.Yes? The Hajj is in the given 4 months. These months are every year. So Hajj is held every year during these 4 months. Please explain your point.
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Peace Arnold
One minute you said that Hajj is = to argue/ dispute/ Debate Now It is Pilgrimage . which is it? I thought you have arrived and the best Conclusions?
My sincere apology if I have offended you Bro, but I do take Translation and Interpretations of The Quran Seriously and would challenge anyone who changed or inserted Word into a Verse where no such word existed. We are all entitle to Interpret The Quran according to Our Best ability . However, we have no Right to Assert That My Interpretation or yours Is Best .
Cheers
almarh0m
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salaam aleikum,
I'm very sad to see this behaviour from you Almar. You know very well I just copy pasted the verse from Rootlist site to ask what you mean with 297. And now you also try to divert by suddenly coming up with that someone is 'offended'.
It is very well you are careful with translations as so am I. You see that I always base my conclusions on evidence and not on personal interpretations.
But till now you have replied only with emotion and without any evidence for your stance in our discussions. This shows frustration and inability.
You can always ask questions, but only with the right intentions. Untill you learn how to discuss properly, by coming with evidence and subject related feedback and not by only giving emotions, I suggest to stay away from them as you don't enhance the subjects.
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Salaam everybody,
I read the article two times. There are some issues that I agree with and there are some that I disagree with. The overall position and conclusion of the author I disagree with.
However I am posting a response to commend the author for sharing his thoughts/views with us and to acknowledge the fact that the article in question was certainly thought provoking (for me) and that I have learned some things from it to think about.
Thanx for sharing Arnold.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Salaam Arnold,
You have not showed the evidence to back up your claim.
Quote
A people who just have created a new idol are still united, but also can be quickly reformed when you give them the correct concept of Reality and thus of Allah.Were Musa and Aaron successful in reforming bani-Israel? Were they (bani-Israel) not given the correct concept of reality before creating their idol?
Is there any such evidence in the quran where a people who have just created new idol were quickly reformed to the correct concept of reality?
As for the issue of debate, I believe debate is not the perfect word to use. The method of debate creates winners and losers. Debating is a win/lose proposition. Ibrahim's method established with his son is of the type win/win. It calls for synergy as opposed to compromise. It calls for opinion, point of view, not debate.
37102 And when he grew enough to work with him, he said "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think? " He said "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
This is in my mind what the foundations of the house were elevated upon. What do you think?
All praise is to Allah.
adjwi
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Peace all,
I agree with brother Damon. I think that there are a lot of verses in the Qur'aan which focus on Allah, for example we are asked many times to serve, remember, glorify, and praise Allah, not because Allah needs it but for our own benefit because when we focus on ONE GOD it helps us to unite and do good deeds for each other and spend our lives harmoniously in the best possible manner.
A few examples out of verses that are too many to quote
Remember Allah
20124 "And whoever turns away from My remembrance, then he will have a miserable life, and We will raise him blind on the Day of Resurrection."
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
4103 So when you are done making the connection, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides; then, when you are relieved, you shall honor the connection. Indeed, the connection for the believers is a timed decree.
3341 O you who believe, you shall remember God frequently.
Glorify Allah
571 Glorifying God is everything in the heavens and the Earth. He is the Noble, the Wise.
641 Glorifying God is everything in the heavens and everything on the Earth. To Him is all kingship, and to Him is all praise, and He is capable of all things.
489 So that you may believe in God and His messenger, and that you may support Him, honor Him, and glorify Him, morning and evening.
4055 So be patient, for the promise of God is true, and seek forgiveness for your sin, and glorify and praise your Lord evening and morning.
Praise Allah
61 Praise be to God who created the heavens and the Earth, and Who made darkness and light; yet those who have rejected their Lord continue to deviate.
341 Praise be to God, to whom belongs everything in the heavens and the Earth; and to Him is the praise in the Hereafter. He is the Wise, the Expert.
2870 And He is God, there is no god but He. To Him belongs all praise in the first and in the last, and judgment belongs with Him, and to Him you will be returned.
2793 Say "Praise be to God, He will show you His signs and you will know them. And your Lord is not unaware of what you do."
One of the attributes of Allah is that He is HAMEED/praiseworthy
2264 To Him is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. And God is the Rich, the Praiseworthy.
Serve Allah
351 "God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him, this is a Straight Path."
7206 Those who are at your Lord, they are never too proud to serve Him, and they glorify Him, and to Him they yield.
112 "That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news."
759 We have sent Noah to his people, so he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him. I fear for you the retribution of a great Day!"
765 And to 'Aad We sent their brother Hud, he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him. Will you not be righteous?"
773 And to Thamud, We sent their brother Saleh, he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him; clarity has come to you from your Lord, this is God's camel, in her you have a sign, so leave her to eat in God's land, and do not harm her, else the painful retribution will take you."
785 And to Midyan, their brother Shu'ayb, he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him. Clarity has come to you from your Lord, so give full weight and measure, and do not hold back from the people what belongs to them, and do not make corruption on the Earth after it has been set-right. That is better for you if you believe."
Referring to salat
2014 "I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the salat/connection for My remembrance."
17111 And say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.
Referring to fasting
2185 A month, marked by heat, in which the Koran was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
Referring to hajj
2237 Neither their meat nor their blood reaches God, but what reaches Him is the righteousness from you. It was thus that He made them in service to you, so that you may glorify God for what He has guided you to, and give news to the good doers.
2200 When you have completed your rites, then remember God as you remember your fathers or even greater. From among the people are those who say "Our Lord, give us from this world!", but in the Hereafter he has no part.
2203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.
Even in the hereafter the focus is on Allah
1010 Their saying in it is "Glory be to our god!" and their greeting in it is "Peace," and the end of their saying is "Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds!"
The reason of all this praise, glorification and remembrance is not because Allah needs it but for our own benefit so we can be united in purpose and action
392 We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, so serve God while devoting the system to Him.
3103 And hold firmly to the rope of God, all of you, and do not be separated. And remember God's blessing upon you when you were enemies and He united your hearts. Then you became, with His blessing, as brothers; and you were on the edge of a pit of fire and He saved you from it; it is thus that God clarifies for you His signs that you may be guided.
436 And serve God and do not set up anything with Him, and be kind to the parents, and the relatives, and the needy, and the neighbor who is of kin, and the neighbor next door, and the friend far away, and the traveler, and those committed to you by oath. God does not like the arrogant, the boastful.
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Salaam Aleikum,
I believe glorifying is a result of observing Reality and seeing Allah's Greatness
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how Allahs Laws operate in the Universe.) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they observe, and reflect upon Allah's creation of the Heavens and the Earth and wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14).
And the glorifying is done through following His Laws
2441 Do you not realize that Allah, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their SALAT and TASBEEH (mission and strife). Allah is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
As for my conclusion on the people first believe and then disbelieve is confirmed by the Quran
570 We made a Covenant with the Children of Israel to follow the Commandments, and sent Messengers to them. Whenever We sent a Messenger to them with anything that clashed with their desires, some of them they rejected, and some they even killed.
571 They persisted in their violations thinking they could escape requital. As a consequence, they became blind and deaf to reason. But, there is plenty of room for forgiveness in Allahs Law. They took corrective actions and attained Allah's Mercy. Yet again, a great many of them faltered and fell blind and deaf. Allah is Seer of what people do.386 How would Allah guide a people who go back to their old ways of disbelief after experiencing the blessings of Faith, and after witnessing that the Messenger is true, and after clear evidence of the Truth has come to them! For, Allah never intervenes to show the Lighted Road to those who displace reality with conjecture, and thus, hurt their own 'Self'. ('Zalimin' = Oppressors = Those who hurt themselves or others = Who displace something from its rightful place = Who relegate the Truth = Violators of human rights = Those who prefer to live in the darkness of ignorance = Commonly translated as wrongdoers).
390 Verily, as for those who reject belief after choosing to be graced with belief, and then, go on adding to their defiance of Faith, their repentance will not be accepted (41. For, it is they, they who have chosen the wrong direction.
You can see clearly the Quran prescribes the act of disbelieving after believing.
The Children of Isreal were turned back into Idolatry because of the Samaterian. Allah warns us for this
3100 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! If you were to heed a group of those who have been given the Scripture before, they might turn you back to the darkness of ignorance after you have chosen to acknowledge the Truth.
The Quran descibes
4153 (O Prophet) People of the Scripture ask you to bring a published book from the sky. They made a greater demand to Moses when they said, "Show us Allah face to face". And their psyche was such that when a bolt of lightning struck around them, they fell in fear (255). They had displaced the true belief with falsehood. After that, they chose the calf for worship although they had seen the Manifest Truth. Yet, We pardoned them and gave Moses evident authority (as a blessing for their guidance).
So to answer your question
Were Musa and Aaron successful in reforming bani-Israel? Were they (bani-Israel) not given the correct concept of reality before creating their idol? Is there any such evidence in the quran where a people who have just created new idol were quickly reformed to the correct concept of reality?
Yes there is. After the Children of Isreal disbelieved, even though they had been shown clear signs of Reality. Moses gave them the explanation that would attain their understanding again
254 When Moses returned, he said to his people, O my people! You have hurt your own Selves by worshiping the calf (7148-156). So, turn in repentance to your Maker and kill your ego (rebellious mentality 1253). This will be best for you in the Sight of your Maker. Thereupon He turned toward you accepting your repentance. Verily, He is the Acceptor of repentance, the Merciful.
So the Quran describes clearly how Moses reformed them again.
As for Debate, I agree with you on this Adjwi. A debate must be won by a group, an argument can be solved. So indeed I will call it Discussion from now on.
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Peace Arnold, all,
As for Debate, I agree with you on this Adjwi. A debate must be won by a group, an argument can be solved. So indeed I will call it Discussion from now on.
The problem is "discussion" is not one of the Classical Arabic dictionary meanings of "hajj" as far as I know, and even from the Qur'aan, you gave a lengthy expose citing many verses that show it to mean "dispute/argue" etc., so "hajj" in the context of "bayt" should mean something else !