Trouble understanding 3:175
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Ahmad, I do think you have a point but I do not think this implies fearing Allah...
The main point here is that you have to cross-reference this with the following
5016 Now indeed, it is We Who have created man and We know the whispering that goes on within his mind (all the intricacies of his thought process), for, We are nearer to him than his Vena cava.
5017 And so it may happen that two conflicting demands in his mind, sitting in opposite directions, pull him apart. (His reason, and his emotions 5021).Connect with
And remember your Lord within yourself, in humility and "kheefata" (kheefata what? what may cause you to not hear or be totally deaf to that thzikr? correlate with 5017); and without loudness in words (which means do not boast to others or show off, that you are doing thzikr), during the morning and the evening. And do not be of the !!!!careless ones!!!! (what are we to not be careless about?)
The fear can only be driven to make sure or be aprehensive to what you are whispering to yourself. And that your ego might blind you and you have to be aprehensive or to keep it under check.
Sorry, but to me, submitting to God in fear is no less than saying "God is a tyrant". I have never come across the term khafiyatillah in the quran. If you have, let me know.
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Ahmad, I do think you have a point but I do not think this implies fearing Allah...
Actually I dont think that fearing mentioned above is about fearing Him, rather fearing His punishment, there are many verses that incline that
however I still accept that it means fearing Him indirectly, because the punishment will be caused by Him
The main point here is that you have to cross-reference this with the following
5016 Now indeed, it is We Who have created man and We know the whispering that goes on within his mind (all the intricacies of his thought process), for, We are nearer to him than his Vena cava.
5017 And so it may happen that two conflicting demands in his mind, sitting in opposite directions, pull him apart. (His reason, and his emotions 5021).Connect with
And remember your Lord within yourself, in humility and "kheefata" (kheefata what? what may cause you to not hear or be totally deaf to that thzikr? correlate with 5017); and without loudness in words (which means do not boast to others or show off, that you are doing thzikr), during the morning and the evening. And do not be of the !!!!careless ones!!!! (what are we to not be careless about?)
I believe it is all about the punishment of Allah
The fear can only be driven to make sure or be aprehensive to what you are whispering to yourself. And that your ego might blind you and you have to be aprehensive or to keep it under check.
Look, I'm not willing to look at the matter psychologically, I look at it simply
firstly we need to fear His punishment and I will show numerous verses later
and because His punishment is caused by Him, then it is not a violation to fear Him
I accept both
Sorry, but to me, submitting to God in fear is no less than saying "God is a tyrant". I have never come across the term khafiyatillah in the quran. If you have, let me know.
It is you actually who is wrongly linking the fear to the submission,
the fear is from Allah punishment even after you submit because you will still commit sins that has to be penalised, do you get my point?, I will prove it lateron inshallah using the Quran
Salam
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Hello
Let?s look at a few verses
And those who join that which Allah has bidden to be joined and have awe of their Lord and fear the evil reckoning.
(21)
-> The above about the believers that they fear the evil reckoning., that reckoning is caused by Allah, it is not like an automatic thing, the reckoning can either be hard or easy, we just don?t know, it is up to Allah, i.e. we really fear Him as we fear His reckoning
Here is another description of the believers
Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of.
(57)
-> See how they fear His chastisement, i.e. caused by HIM, so I reality we should be fearing Him because He may not forgive our sins that must be punished, right?
Another description about the believers
They fulfill vows and fear a day the evil of which shall be spreading far and wide.
(7)
-> They also fear a day the evil of which shall be spreading far and wide., the judgment day of course, again it is not like they fear A DAY, rather they should fear what is going to happen on that day and sure what is going to happen is going be caused by Allah only, i.e. in reality the should be feari9ng Allah Himself not the Day
Here is something that should make it clear for you, the angels should have nothing to fear according to your logic, sounds right if we consider that the angels have no freewill, as well they will never receive any punishment or a horrible day will be forced on them, yet we read Allah is telling us about them that the angels fear Him
49- And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
50- They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.(49)
(50)-> Now I ask you, why the angels fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded?
Clearly fearing Allah is mutual for a believer because a believer knows well that Allah can do anything to him/her without having the ability to question Him or defend the self.
Even in 3175, the order was clear that we should fear Him, it is actually a complex grammar rule that may cause confusion to many who are not aware of it, the last letter Ya in order verbs must be omitted based on few rules, you may see it there due to some other words that preceded the order verbs like An for example but that is rare, most of the times you will see the order verbs having the last Ya omitted, let me clear it a bit
If I tell a group to people to fear me then it may be said like this
Khafooni
However under most conditions in most sentences the above is wrong, it has to be
Khafoon
See, the last letter Ya is omitted, however when we break the sentence or try to perform Iraab, we have to state that the There is an omitted Ya and is referring to Allah
Here is an example, for the order verb Ubudooni, you will clearly see that the last letter Ya is omitted and it became Ubudoon
And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me.
(25)
-> See, , without a Ya at the end
Same seen below
Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me.
(92)
I.e. in 3175 the order is Khafooni with an omitted Ya, i.e. FEAR ME, exactly as the angels are fearing Him
Salam
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Actually I dont think that fearing mentioned above is about fearing Him, rather fearing His punishment, there are many verses that incline that
Good so we have agreement... His punishment in my opinion is based on a criterion, which does not include "fearing" Him, but rather seeing Him with Reverence and Awe and by doing good and not evil, and by not setting idols beside Him.
Fear of His Chastisement is practical through being aware of your "dark" side, and to keep it in check... and to dread what might happen if you succomb to it.
Now do you see my point?
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Good so we have agreement... His punishment in my opinion is based on a criterion, which does not include "fearing" Him, but rather seeing Him with Reverence and Awe and by doing good and not evil, and by not setting idols beside Him.
Fear of His Chastisement is practical through being aware of your "dark" side, and to keep it in check... and to dread what might happen if you succomb to it.
Now do you see my point?
And how about the angels that are fearing Him while they know that they should never be punished
actually I have to rephrashe what I said again
fearing Allah means fearing His punishment and fearing Him persoanlly even if there is no punishment exactly as the angels are fearing Him
Salam
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Peace all,
I am with Ahmed on this one !
Cheers
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Peace Brother Ahmed,
I'm so glad to see that you're back, as I had just read your "goodbye" thread. Being new to Islam (@ 2 yrs.), I appreciate and value your input. I find the topic of "fearing" Allah and/or His punishment very interesting as I personally tend to "freeze-up" and find myself somewhat immobolized by the thought of it. In fact, I sometimes wonder if the word "fear" hasn't been mistranslated from the Arabic. I notice and quote some of your words on the matter
"Look, I'M NOT WILLING TO LOOK AT THE MATTER PSYCHOLOGICALLY, I look at it simply firstly we need to fear His punishment and I will show numerous verses later and because His punishment is caused by Him, then it is not a violation to fear Him I accept both"
The following is a quote that explains my understanding of the consequences of fear. I only intend to open a dialogue regarding the importance of love, and in no way mean disrespect
"Fear keeps alcoholics drinking, addicts addicted, and the average person from even being interested in psychology. In fearing the dark truth of the human psyche one never gets to feel the true joy of real light. Because, after all, the light of good psychotherapy illuminates the dark that we all fear and shows it for what it is. So there you are, in full irony in your fear of the dark, you end up fearing love itself."
Additionally, I'd just like to mention how grateful I am to God for the opportunity given us brothers and sisters to come together and discuss Him, with the intention of pleasing Him, God willing.
Much peace and love to you Ahmed. And again, thank you for being here.
lilyfleur
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Peace Brother Ahmed,
Salam mate
I'm so glad to see that you're back, as I had just read your "goodbye" thread.
Thanks mate, to a degree I consider myself attached to this place despite I disagree with most of the Quran material posted
Being new to Islam (@ 2 yrs.), I appreciate and value your input.
Thak you very much and welcome to the religion of Allah, you have just started actually, it is a long path to fully understand His message
I find the topic of "fearing" Allah and/or His punishment very interesting as I personally tend to "freeze-up" and find myself somewhat immobolized by the thought of it.
The problem here is simply, people are looking at it as if fearing Allah is like fearing another powerful human
Not at all the way I see it, I fear Allah because He is the powerful God, His power is coming from being a powerful God not being a powerful human, i.e. my fear to Him is different if we try to compare it to fearing powerful humans, in fact we can?t compare the two because you can?t compare apples with mangos, two different things
However I fully understand that when humans think about God or a property of Him they always try to visualise it by comaring it to something that is human, this is a huge fallacy on the humans side
In fact, I sometimes wonder if the word "fear" hasn't been mistranslated from the Arabic. I notice and quote some of your words on the matter
I actually believe that the word Khafa, or Khasha, as both translated to fear is very accurate, but you have to know that it is fearing the God not a human
"Look, I'M NOT WILLING TO LOOK AT THE MATTER PSYCHOLOGICALLY, I look at it simply firstly we need to fear His punishment and I will show numerous verses later and because His punishment is caused by Him, then it is not a violation to fear Him I accept both"
His punishment is coming from Him, so we really fearing Him especially He can give us a break from that punishment, but again if He just want to put us in hell even if we are good, we just can?t do anything about it. this alone scares the hell out of me
The following is a quote that explains my understanding of the consequences of fear.
That is the consequences of fearing a human, not fearing the God, the consequences of fearing the God that you will do your best to be a good believer
I only intend to open a dialogue regarding the importance of love, and in no way mean disrespect
Sure
"Fear keeps alcoholics drinking,
but fearing what exactly?
addicts addicted,
again fearing what exactly?
and the average person from even being interested in psychology.
hmm, I agree, but that does not apply to my statement, my statement was about fearing the God, not fearing a human, I fear no human to be honest, and yes fearing a human will lead to psychological consequences and I will be very interested to find out what it does to us, but that is based on fearing other humans not the God
In fearing the dark truth of the human psyche one never gets to feel the true joy of real light. Because, after all, the light of good psychotherapy illuminates the dark that we all fear and shows it for what it is. So there you are, in full irony in your fear of the dark, you end up fearing love itself."
The above only applies to the human/human fear
It does not apply to the human/God fear
Additionally, I'd just like to mention how grateful I am to God for the opportunity given us brothers and sisters to come together and discuss Him, with the intention of pleasing Him, God willing.
Much peace and love to you Ahmed. And again, thank you for being here.
lilyfleur
I share your thoughts
Likewise to you
Salam mate
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Thanks for the input Ahmad. I'll try to think over...........
So indeed the fear of "satan's pals" is quite different than the Fear of God (I think I will use it with a capital F to distinguish it from now on) and has to be taken in its proper scope. I think this has more to do with being overwhelmed with humility, and perhaps at that point, there is a fuzzy boundary between this feeling and Fear itself.
And as such, the translation of 3175 would be
It is only "that which is farthest from truth/righteousness", that would instill into you fear of its protectors. So, fear not "its protectors", but Fear Me (by virtue of utter awe, reverence and humility /AND/ by virute what will befall you if you fail to keep yourself in check,) if you are indeed believers!btw I still do not believe that khaafillah and khasiyatillah are the same thing...
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Peace be upon you,
We are not to fear anything..There is more than one word being translated as "fear"..and that is where you must begin the journey to truth. God is not asking for fear, only the blind scholars who want to control you. Why would God want to debilitate you with fear? Fear is a state of tension..while God wants you to be in a state of Peace and Tranquility. Wake up and observe, then no one can mislead you.
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Salaam Aleikum,
I believe Fear of Allah is explained throught he word Taqwa. I will quote Toshihiko Izutsu in his remarkable work 'God and Man in the Quran'.
Page 235
"Al-Tibrizi in his commentary on Diwan Al-Hamasah which runs
Ittaqa means you place between yourself (A) and something you are afraid of (B), something (C) which might protect you by preventing it (B) from reaching you."In short, it means self-defence by means of something. The general situation is this A man (A) perceives something (B) coming towrds him, which looks dangerous, destructive, or atleast harmful. He does not like it to reach him, he must stop it before it reaches him and does harm to him. So he puts between himself and the thing (B) something (C) which is strong enough to stop its uncoming."
B-----------> C <---A
Allah calls Himself Ghafoor, meaning Helmet/Harnas, He protects us by giving us the Revelation that guides us to the right behaviour. Also He says He is Maliki-YauwmeDeen, the Supreme Lawmaker and Implyer of these Laws of judging Cause and Effect in our existence.
Thus the Fear of Allah refers to that we must seriously fear the consequences of our deeds which will come back to us. So fearing Allah is taking the Law of Requital very serious. Most people don't believe in YauwmeDeen, the Constant Law of Requital. They don't fear it, and thus they don't fear He who has made this Divine Law.
We must protect ourselves (A) from the consequences of our wrong deeds (B) through the will of protecting ourselves, which thus means following the Quran (C), which teaches us how to act correctly in Reality.
So fearing Allah is taking His Law of Requital seriously, and thus study His Revelation closely, and follow His Divine Laws of Nature and Revelation closely (salat) so we are protected against any consequence of wrong deeds we learn how to avoid.
3175 It is only that which is farthest from Truth (shaat=long rope=shaitan=something distanced from Allah), that would instill into you fear of its protectors. So, fear not its protectors, but Fear Me (As My Will is expressed in the Law of Requital, return of Good or Bad deeds, which you cannot avoid and which I have determined its setting) if you are indeed those who are convinced (of the Truth)!