Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
-
Peace everyone
Peace Siki , Tanveer
What comes to my mind when we say servant is someone who works for a pay/salary, more like an employee, and slave is someone bought for a price and therefore bonded.
As far as I know the paid employee (servant) category is not identified in the Quraan. But we see freeing of a neck/slave (rukaba) mentioned in the Quran. So do you think we can define slave as someone completely bound to a master without freedom.
I guess Tabieen means ?follower? and maybe to mean ?dependent?. But is this term used in relation to servant or slave in the Quran ?
-
Peace Siki
24 32
Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.Wa ankihul aya_ma_ minkum was sa_lihina min iba_dikum wa ima_ikum iy yaku_nu_ fuqara_ a yugnihimul la_hu min fadlih wal la_hu wa_siun alim
24 33
Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your MMA ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them).Wal yastafifil lazina la_ yajidu_na nika_han hat ta_ yugniyahumul la_hu min fadlih wal lazina yabtagu_nal kita_ba mim ma_ malakat aima_nukum faka_tibu_hum in alimtum fihim hairaw wa a_tu_hum min ma_lil la_hil lazi a_ta_kum wa la_ tukrihu_ fataya_tikum alal biga_i in aradna tahas sunal litabtagu_ aradal haya_tid dun ya_ wa may yukrih huna fa in nal la_ha mim badi ikra_hin na gafu_rur rahim
There is no dispute with regard to your earlier post other than there is no mention of Mohsinat in verses 2432 or 2433. But I guess the ?single? for ayyaama in 2432 should be ?Widows? instead of single in the above Y Alis translation. Although I have seen this only in one dictionary I guess Tanveer will be in a better position to clarify.
-
peace warner
Taabaeen " is used in 24-31 for servants , in addition to MMA , when women are being addressed to take care of their dress code .
As for translations of 24-32 and 33 , it is been up to the translator , how he perceives the words,i have seen translators translating MMA as servants and Abaad as slave , and exactly opposite as well.
I guess three of us here are in a better position to sort out this matter , i don't think those people had the tools , or time to dig deep into the spirit of just one,or two words,,so let's purify it.
i am utterly disappointed with these people and would never trust any of them , until and unless i read Arabic and compare at least 8 of them,and even then i would recommend using a combination of the ultimate dictionary (the quran itself) and ones own judgment. As for Fatayat,
The only two occurrences are consistent with MMA in the same verse , so if we take MMA to be All the slaves,then it is more plausible that these are young female slave girls,whom God is recommending as an alternate for marriage. Moreover God commanding Masters not to force these girls in to prostitution is nearer to reality rather than "parent protected young girls theory,as there would be very remote chances for a father to force his little girl or niece into such a thing . Last ,but not the least ,
All mighty reducing the punishment for these (Fatayat)makes perfect sense.sikandar
-
Peace Warner, Sikandar, all,
According to Lane Lexicon, "ayama" means persons (irrespective of gender) who do not have a spouse, and can be both never married or married before. Thus it would include never married, divorced, and widowed, and all these categories are single. Hence I think that it should be translated as "single" in 2432.
In addition to that, I think it should be "marry off" and not "marry" in 2432, but Samia can give a better opinion on what it should be according to Classical Arabic grammar in that particular verse.
"Ma malakat aymanukum" could be from "mohsanat" (424), or from "fatayat" (425), thus the term does not refer only to "slave girls". It refers to those whom you commit to by oath (when you possess someone you commit to them to fulfill your responsibilities towards them), and they could be both from "mohsanat" or "fatayat". In case of "mohsanat", it would refer to those "mohsanat" whom you commit to/possess by oath, and in case of "fatayat", it would refer to those "fatayat" whom you commit to/possess by oath.
In my understanding, "fatayat" means "parent/guardian protected/dependent" as it has been used in contrast with "mohsanat"/self-protected in 425. The mohsanat protect their chastity themselves, either while being free/independent or by getting married or by entering into an oath with someone. The fatayat are dependent on someone else for protection of their chastity, either on parents in case of biological children that are still dependent on them, or on guardian in case of adopted children that are still dependent OR SLAVES.
According to Lane Lexicon, "fatayat" means "young women, concealed, or kept within, or behind the curtain, in the house or tent", which implies parent/family protected, and also means "female slaves", who would be guardian/master protected/dependent. Thus "fatayat" includes both female slaves and young women still dependent on their parents/family/guardians, and both meanings fit in 425. The MMA from the fatayat would be those dependent young women OR female slaves, with whom one has made an oath to possess them/commit to them, which in context of 425 would be oath to marry them.
"Bigha" means to "seek to exceed the legal limits"/"prostitution and CANNOT mean marriage. Thus in 2433, we are being asked not to force our fatayat into prostitution. I therefore agree that "fatayat" in 2433 can mean "female slaves", but it can still mean "young parent/family dependent girls" also because there are instances in corrupt societies where fathers/older relatives have forced their female family members, including daughters, into prostitution.
The "slave" meaning, however, does not apply nowadays because al-qur'aan does not give us any laws about enslaving people, so hopefully in the last 1400 years, all the slaves should have been liberated by now !
-
Peace brother Tanveer,
According to Lane Lexicon, "fatayat" means "young women, concealed, or kept within, or behind the curtain, in the house or tent", which implies parent/family protected, and also means "female slaves", who would be guardian/master protected/dependent. Thus "fatayat" includes both female slaves and young women still dependent on their parents/family/guardians, and both meanings fit in 425.
I don't see the meaning of slaves here. The plural word "fatayat" (singular "fatat" simply means young females.
"Bigha" means to "seek to exceed the legal limits"/"prostitution and CANNOT mean marriage.
Please see all the occurrences of the word "BGhY" and its derivatives in the great reading. Prostitution is NEVER one of the meanings. So why is that meaning coming out of nowhere here?
I don't think that it is a coincidence that like "ma malakat aymanukum", it seems like this subject is full of forced meanings that encourage the exploitation of women.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace bro Ayman,
I don't see the meaning of slaves here. The plural word "fatayat" (singular "fatat" simply means young females.
The implication of my post was that even if it can mean "female slaves" according to Classical Arabic dictionary in 425, it would not be applicable nowadays because there is no process described in al-qur'aan of enslaving people. There were some slaves at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan in the elite, as per your own admission, and AT THAT TIME the "female slave" meaning of "fatayat" would have been applicable to that situation.
Please see all the occurrences of the word "BGhY" and its derivatives in the great reading. Prostitution is NEVER one of the meanings. So why is that meaning coming out of nowhere here?
Can you please tell us what "bighaa" means in 2433 ? It cannot mean marriage as "marriage" is not "seeking to exceed lawful limits", but would actually be opposite of "bighaa" because it is remaining within lawful limits.
Peace
-
Peace brother Tanveer,
The implication of my post was that even if it can mean "female slaves" according to Classical Arabic dictionary in 425, it would not be applicable nowadays because there is no process described in al-qur'aan of enslaving people. There were some slaves at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan in the elite, as per your own admission, and AT THAT TIME the "female slave" meaning of "fatayat" would have been applicable to that situation.
My point is that it CANNOT mean slaves. For example, the people of the cave in chapter 18 are described as "fityat" (masculine equivalent of "fatayat" not because they can be slaves but because they were young men.
Can you please tell us what "bighaa" means in 2433 ? It cannot mean marriage as "marriage" is not "seeking to exceed lawful limits", but would actually be opposite of "bighaa" because it is remaining within lawful limits.
The law on marriage is that it should be consentual and not a forced marriage. Hence, a forced marriage indeed falls under "seeking to exceed the lawful limits".
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace bro Ayman,
Thank you for your analysis. I agree with your point about "forced marriage", and your point about "fatayat" only meaning "young girls" makes sense according to usage in al-qur'aan.
I have two questions
Firstly, what would be the rules of marriage to the slaves then, according to al-qur'aan, at the time of its revelation, because there were a small minority of slaves at that time as evident from verses that tell us to free slaves as a recompense.
Secondly, does the preposition "aw" allow the meaning of "that is" as per its usage in al-qur'aan ?
-
Peace brother Tanveer,
Firstly, what would be the rules of marriage to the slaves then, according to al-qur'aan, at the time of its revelation, because there were a small minority of slaves at that time as evident from verses that tell us to free slaves as a recompense.
Brother, there are plenty of passages in the great reading that speak against injustice ("thulm" in any shape or form. Do you think that there is any justice in slavery? Isn't this like stealing the fruits of the work of someone? If this someone is also an orphan isn't this stealing from the orphans?
Clearly there is no issue of "marriage to slaves" in the first place because slavery is an injustice for which there is absolutely no place amongst those who are forethoughtful.
Secondly, does the preposition "aw" allow the meaning of "that is" as per its usage in al-qur'aan ?
Brother, I am not sure I understand your question. Please put it in context. As far as I know, "aw" means "or".
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace ayman, tanveer.
Brother ayman is right about Fatayat as YOUNG GIRLS, but in 4-24 , the word is fatayat out of MMA , that is why i consider it to be a slave girl.(because i take the MMA as slaves)
In the 24-33 where "bigha" is being used, i would tend to agree with brother Tanveer, he has a definition, which is more refined , and i think that can apply in both situations , But as the primary subject in ayah is MMA, and also ,the chance of " Bigha" taking place with Fatayat of MMA is much more likely. So we could say,,,
" Here in this ayah, stress is primarily for Fatayat of MMA but the divine wisdom covered the other option as well by using the Appropriate words".
peace
sikandar
-
Salaam all
Thanks warner for bringing out this verse
24 32
Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.It shows the reply of God in case of poverty,which is completely different from "go and marry the slaves if you can't afford to pay the dowery of mu7sanat"!
Therefore,in verse 425, the affordability is anything BUT financial. So, what else would make someone unable to marry?
Also think of verse 244 what would "mu7sanat" mean? Remember, every woman/man is innocent untill there are four witnesses.What woman/man would not be affected by accusation, and thus do not form part of mu7sans?
I think if we can answer these two questions, we may be able to understand these two problematic terms. They are in fact in opposition.
Brother Tanweer
The verb "naka7a" in the affirmative command would mean "marry off" only if it is followed by explicit masculin. In verse 2432, it would mean (marry the females and marry off the males), as I explained that Arabic usage is the opposite of English usage.
To those who might wonder why I mentioned only the affirmative command, the reason is that "yunki7" means marry off and "yanki7" means marry, in the imperfect tense. But both verbs have the same form in the affirmative command (anki7). As for the negative command, it is simply the imperfect (present tense) preceded by "la"=don't la tunki7 and la tanki7.
-
Peace bro Sikandar,
Brother ayman is right about Fatayat as YOUNG GIRLS, but in 4-24 , the word is fatayat out of MMA , that is why i consider it to be a slave girl.(because i take the MMA as slaves)
I think you need to correct this basic misunderstanding that is causing some conceptual problems for you in my opinion. Firstly, it is 425 and not 424 where fatayat are mentioned. Secondly, it is NOT fatayat out of MMA, but the other way around MMA FROM FATAYAT.
Look at the Arabic of 425 "ma malakat aymanukum MIN fatayatikum" i.e. MMA FROM FATAYAT. Thus in this verse MMA is the subset of fatayat.
That is why MMA CANNOT mean slaves because in 424 MMA being mentioned is the subset of mohsanat. MMA is simply those whom you possess by oath and what kind of oath and what kind of people being referred to depends on the context. That is why your line diagram is wrong. The arrow should be from fatayat to MMA and not from MMA to fatayat as you have drawn.
Peace,
Tanveer
-
Salaam warner
Thank you for inviting me to participate in the thread of "mamalakat aymanukum". To me, both terms (MMA and Mu7sanat) are linked by opposition, so I would discuss both on the same thread (in this case this one), or even only one, and the other will be solved when we reach an agreement on either.
-
Salaam brother siki
In verse 425
And whoever cannot marry the (mu7sanat), marry (MMA).....marry them with the permission of their family/folk..
According to you, the command is to marry YOUR slave (MMA), not someone else's. There is no mention of masters here. The Quraan uses the word (ahl) which is family, clan...but not masters. If God speaks of slaves, why not mention their masters?
-
Peace brother Ayman,
Brother, there are plenty of passages in the great reading that speak against injustice ("thulm" in any shape or form. Do you think that there is any justice in slavery? Isn't this like stealing the fruits of the work of someone? If this someone is also an orphan isn't this stealing from the orphans?
Clearly there is no issue of "marriage to slaves" in the first place because slavery is an injustice for which there is absolutely no place amongst those who are forethoughtful.
I agree that it is one of the biggest injustices to mankind to enslave a fellow human. What if a fellow human wanted to put an end to this injustice at the time of revelation of the great reading and marry someone else's female slave ? How would he have gone about it according to the great reading ?
I was also thinking about "forced marriage" compared to "prostitution". In my opinion they are almost the same, just a matter of semantics, isn't it ?
Brother, I am not sure I understand your question. Please put it in context. As far as I know, "aw" means "or".
I am sorry, I thought you had already read brother Arnold's posts quoting Mohammad Asad's translation of 7029-30 and 235-6, in which he translates "aw" as "that is", thus making "azwajukum" the same as "ma malakat aymanukum" in those signs. Does Classical Arabic usage allow that interpretation ?
Please refer to the following posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118376#msg118376
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118468#msg118468
Peace,
Tanveer
-
Peace bro Sikandar,
I think you need to correct this basic misunderstanding that is causing some conceptual problems for you in my opinion. Firstly, it is 425 and not 424 where fatayat are mentioned. Secondly, it is NOT fatayat out of MMA, but the other way around MMA FROM FATAYAT.
Look at the Arabic of 425 "ma malakat aymanukum MIN fatayatikum" i.e. MMA FROM FATAYAT. Thus in this verse MMA is the subset of fatayat.
That is why MMA CANNOT mean slaves because in 424 MMA being mentioned is the subset of mohsanat. MMA is simply those whom you possess by oath and what kind of oath and what kind of people being referred to depends on the context. That is why your line diagram is wrong. The arrow should be from fatayat to MMA and not from MMA to fatayat as you have drawn.
Tanveer
Peace, Tanveer
peace Bro
I agree with you, actually i made a mistake when i considered Fatayat ,as Young female slaves only. But brother Ayman and your arguments steered us towards a more refined definition of Fatayat . which is Any young girl (maiden) ,and she could be belonging to any category . i guess we have to subdivide right after Mohsinnat in to two groups as Fatayat and rest of the category, or may be , even before Mohsinnat , because some of the prohibited ones could also be categorised as Fayayats (Maidens), i shall try and correct it in the line diagram.
In my judgment Shakir's translation of the ayat should be closer to reality.
4-25 And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
peace
sikandar
-
Peace Samia
Thanks for being in at least one thread but keep watching the other one as well since maybe we will find the clues in that.
425 ?.and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married/MUHSANAT they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women/MUHSANAT (in that case)
?wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i),
According to 425 does the MMA become a Muhsanat when she is taken in marriage?
Also the MMA receives half the punishment of a Muhsanat if she commits fahisha after marriage. -
Salaam warner
According to the prevailing understanding, yes. However, my understanding finds this quite logical and necesary.
As I mentioned befoe, mu7san means immune. Immune of what? I believe it is immune of not wanting/unable to perform sex.Verse 424 starts addressing a different category of people. It is linked to the previous verse by theme only. It is not a continuation to it. This category is those who can't/wont have sex. This is why the following verse says "wa man lam yasta6i3 6awlan an yanki7 almu7Sanat..", wrongly translated as (cannot afford). The verb used is (unable) not (cannot). I also showed that poverty and richness are to be left to God as per verse 2432 and we should not worry about that.
That's why this wedlock is called (milkul-yameen) i.e. it is a special covenant/oath between two, one of whom is at least unable/cannot have sex. The other is their milkul-yameen. So, this other accepted this relation and promise to not want sex (promised to be a voluntary MMA). But suppose in a moment of weakness they commit adultry (because they are not having sex with their partner), then God considers their condition as extenuation circumstances, and hence the punishment is lightened (half of the mu7San).
-
Peace Samia
Thanks for being in at least one thread but keep watching the other one as well since maybe we will find the clues in that.
425 .and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married/MUHSANAT they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women/MUHSANAT (in that case)
wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i),
According to 425 does the MMA become a Muhsanat when she is taken in marriage?
Also the MMA receives half the punishment of a Muhsanat if she commits fahisha after marriage.peace brother warner
ya you are right, she will enter into the category of mohsinnat ,what i think , Not because she has Married, but because she has been upgraded, Now at this stage if she is divorced , do you think that she will stay in the Mohsinnat cateory? or would drop back?peace
siki
-
Salaam siki, warner and all
According to 425 does the MMA become a Muhsanat when she is taken in marriage?
Also the MMA receives half the punishment of a Muhsanat if she commits fahisha after marriage.Remember, she/he is already married! But if she/he change their stance from not-wanting sex to wanting it (become mu7san), then their punishment is half, since they can't have it with the husband/wife (who are the unable to marry a mu7san)
Look at verse 6612 And Mariam, daughter of Imran, who "a7sanat farajaha"...i.e who immuned it from "should not have sex or marriage because she was given to the monastry". The translation (guarded her chastity) is wrong, because in this meaning the Quraan uses the verb (7afatha) as in verses 24 30; 2431; 3335; 235; 7029.