I know what sex is, what is illegal sex?
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Peace "phoenix",
Jonny said,What is a scientific community? Are they supposed to be the Mullahs of the future? You contradicted yourself in that sentence. Think about it. The mullahs too are supposed to be an enlightened community which decides what is best. Which also can be all of us. Who decides if you are "scientific" enough?
JK- Its strange but i anticipated tht youd try and turn my statement into a contra with the exact same reason i had in mind. If you wanna compare the scientific community with the Mullahs then im sorry i cant help you. If you know any other way besides science to verify the truth and to define the details of rules please let me know. If your against science now then i also cant help you. As for who decides your scientific enough ITS US the people. We realize that science is the only way to go if we dont wanna get back into the cave. Everyone realizes this on one level or the other but wherever it goes against their dogma thts where probs come in. The Mullahs are in no way like the scientific community, the latter of which is always open to self correction where as the former is fixed.
But is there a punishment for adultery? I know there is one for sex outside of marriage, which doesn't work AT ALL.
If there isn't one (I really can't remember), then I don't have to explain why that doesn't work. And if there is a specific punishment, for the same reasons as pre marital sex, and because if it provides us with a specific punishment, we also need a specific definition of the crime. Which you are saying the quran doesn't provide because it's left to interpretation, which is better.JK- Yes the Quran mentions a punishment for adultery whose definition is to be decided by the community. According to my understanding it is when the penis penetrates the vagina without there being a egal contract of responsibility which is very reasonable. "Marriage" is a religious term and i avoid using it. GOD Bless!
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JK- Its strange but i anticipated tht youd try and turn my statement into a contra with the exact same reason i had in mind. If you wanna compare the scientific community with the Mullahs then im sorry i cant help you. If you know any other way besides science to verify the truth and to define the details of rules please let me know. If your against science now then i also cant help you. As for who decides your scientific enough ITS US the people. We realize that science is the only way to go if we dont wanna get back into the cave. Everyone realizes this on one level or the other but wherever it goes against their dogma thts where probs come in. The Mullahs are in no way like the scientific community, the latter of which is always open to self correction where as the former is fixed.
peace, I understand what you are getting at. EVERYONE cannot reach ONE conclusion. We cannot have everyone deciding. You can have the majority decide, but the majority are always following conjecture, they might be misguided. The only thing you can do then is to appoint or elect a small group of people who decide, like a jury. And that's when it becomes the same thing as today's Mullahs. Because then you are not listening to God, but to these priests or scientists or whatever that you have appointed.
So, the only thing that works is if the quran isn't meant for the whole world, or as a constitution, but as an individual guide. Which means that we are looking at these "crimes" and "punishments" the wrong way. I don't know what the answer is, but I think a major re-think is necessary for these concepts.JK- Yes the Quran mentions a punishment for adultery whose definition is to be decided by the community. According to my understanding it is when the penis penetrates the vagina without there being a egal contract of responsibility which is very reasonable. "Marriage" is a religious term and i avoid using it. GOD Bless!
A legal contract doesn't change anything.
What the Quran has taught me is that I am not supposed to do what is legal, but what is morally right. I don't care how many laws I break if my intentions are good, and what I do is morally OK.
Morally speaking, there is nothing wrong with having sex with someone without a piece of paper telling you that you love your partner. A piece of paper makes no difference. It's as superficial as those fake hoodscoops they put on cars. A piece of paper has nothing to do with what you feel on the inside, which is what actually matters.
Adultery, to me, is when I love a person, but I decide to have sex with someone else just for the sake of sex. Or I am no longer committed to my partner that I swore I would commit to. I can see why that is an evil thing. -
Peace "phoenix",
I can see your prob. You like many others need to get down from the spiritual horse and try more to understand the real world.peace, I understand what you are getting at. EVERYONE cannot reach ONE conclusion.
JK- Oh yes we can and theres high prob tht we will GW but that would be when all of us will embrace the scientific method. This will inevitably happen. See almost everyone is enjoying the facilities which science has brought forward today, even the ver radical Hislamics use machine guns which are ironically devloped by Jewish scientists(Note Here Jew refers to a race not Judaism sicne the scientits are secular. Took me some time to find tht out, see wiki). So one day or another this hypocrisy must disappear. Theres a high tendency tht it will.
We cannot have everyone deciding. You can have the majority decide, but the majority are always following conjecture, they might be misguided. The only thing you can do then is to appoint or elect a small group of people who decide, like a jury. And that's when it becomes the same thing as today's Mullahs. Because then you are not listening to God, but to these priests or scientists or whatever that you have appointed.
JK- Theres a vast difference between appoiting qualified scientists and/or politicians who follow the scientific method or else can be anytime overthrown and the Mullahs which rely on religious dogma and scare the people and /or even use military force to subdue them. Please try to understand this.
So, the only thing that works is if the quran isn't meant for the whole world, or as a constitution, but as an individual guide. Which means that we are looking at these "crimes" and "punishments" the wrong way. I don't know what the answer is, but I think a major re-think is necessary for these concepts.
JK- What then do you make of the verse which tell us to puish the adulterers? Who is this we? Dont you see? The Quran is talking to the community. Dont you know that the Quran says that even the birds form COMMNITIES like us? We must learn to live in community. Individually we wont survive on earth and tht is a totally unhealthy concept.
A legal contract doesn't change anything.
JK- Oh yes it does. It fixes responsibility coz thered be PRESSURE from the community to do so. This is why we have banks and trsnactions are stored in databases accessible to experts when relevant i.e. when misconceptions come abt. If a legal contract didnt change anything we eldnt be needing this. Plz think.
What the Quran has taught me is that I am not supposed to do what is legal, but what is morally right. I don't care how many laws I break if my intentions are good, and what I do is morally OK.
JK- How do you judge what is morally right or wrong? Again the scientific method comes in. Theres no other way. The QUran mentions BOTH moral and legal issues.
Morally speaking, there is nothing wrong with having sex with someone without a piece of paper telling you that you love your partner. A piece of paper makes no difference. It's as superficial as those fake hoodscoops they put on cars. A piece of paper has nothing to do with what you feel on the inside, which is what actually matters.
JK- And this is where you are wrong. If this were the case we didnt need bank contracts or any other for tht matter. Your reaacting entirely emotional. GOD in the Quran specifically commands us TO WRITE DOWN/TRANSCRIBE financial tranactions and those i think we can agree are less important than a living child. The point which you fail to get is that you we aint safe on our own. We need to live together and cooperate. Again think.
Adultery, to me, is when I love a person, but I decide to have sex with someone else just for the sake of sex. Or I am no longer committed to my partner that I swore I would commit to. I can see why that is an evil thing.
JK- Im sorry but this is not immediately adultery, only if you dont enter into a contract with the person who your having sex with. Your again confusing moral and legal issues. GOD does not issue legal punishments in regards to individual moral issues. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
I totally agree with Johnny. And it's so important to realize that this is meant to be for a community.
If Phoenix and his girlfriend was the only one on earth it wouldn't have been a problem, they couldn't commit adultery, yeah u know.....
So morals and rules for living in a community is of course needed or else it would be a chaos.
Peace
Maria -
Peace "weinmar",
May i ask what prevents you from signing a contract of responsibility together with your partner before you engage in sexual relations? Is tht too difficult a task? GOD Bless!Hi,
Shouldn't you go to a lawyer/notaria to get a contract or document legalized? sounds like fun..
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Hi,
Shouldn't you go to a lawyer/notaria to get a contract or document legalized? sounds like fun..
JK- Aha i get ur point but no thts not necessary. However you can right up your own document of responsibility and get that approved by a lawyer. Once thts done you can use it for any relationship and you dont have to go to a lawyer again and again. Another method would be "e-signature" meaning you can make a contacrt electronically through the internet and youd be registered automatically. In the meantime it would suffice if both if you and your partner agree to the major points of responsibility, sign the paper and each of you keep a copy until we devise such a system. GOD Bless!
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Peace to all,
Weinmar, take it easy brother, you sound like you have some serious issues you need to take care of, try cleaning your body out of the toxic chemicals you put in it and this will help clear up your mind to make some important decisions you need,
Kurt
I am clean and my mind is able to decide. I am not your average street bum high on crack.
-peace
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peace Jonny,
JK- Oh yes we can and theres high prob tht we will GW but that would be when all of us will embrace the scientific method. This will inevitably happen. See almost everyone is enjoying the facilities which science has brought forward today, even the ver radical Hislamics use machine guns which are ironically devloped by Jewish scientists(Note Here Jew refers to a race not Judaism sicne the scientits are secular. Took me some time to find tht out, see wiki). So one day or another this hypocrisy must disappear. Theres a high tendency tht it will.
What guarantee is there that that will happen? If it does, WHEN will it happen? You are saying that we'll be living in a utopia in the future, and I can't believe you. And once again you are contradicting yourself because you said that free-will is just an illusion. If everything we do is decided by past events, then we as individuals and as a society will not make any progress. And that's a fact. You can either stick with your no free will theory or your utopia theory, but you can't have it both ways.
And modern science will soon destroy the very planet that gave birth to us, hopefully your enlightened scientific community will find another one to devour.
But anyway, as a scientist, you can only trust empirical observations. So there is absolutely NO WAY that you can say that there is a "high tendency" that the "hypocrisy must disappear" except by blind faith.But even if what you are saying is true, I do not live in a perfect world. I live in the real world. In the present, to be precise. I am alive RIGHT NOW. If the Quran is a book of guidance, and if it's laws don't work TODAY, then it is completely useless to us, isn't it? You, and Arnold, keep saying that in the future the Quran will work, and we'll live in a perfect world governed by quranic law, so let me ask you this Why the hell are we wasting our time with this book NOW? What good has god done to us, and the people who lived a thousand years before us, by giving us a book that cannot be used?
JK- Theres a vast difference between appoiting qualified scientists and/or politicians who follow the scientific method or else can be anytime overthrown and the Mullahs which rely on religious dogma and scare the people and /or even use military force to subdue them. Please try to understand this.
THere's a difference, but it's certainly not vast. Democracy is supposed to be fool proof too, yet there are corrupt politicians everywhere who are exploiting the masses. And these scientists...will they be any different than the ones at NASA who spend billions sending their little toys to Mars when millions of people are dying of hunger in their own country? Just because someone follows "the scientific method" doesn't mean they are moral people.
And there is just so much wrong with this, I could keep on typing through Spring. It just won't work.
And even if it will, there is no reason for you to believe (as a scientist) that it will because this has never worked before. In fact, all data points in the opposite direction.
For this to work, you will need your perfect society, which will never happen either.
And let me quote myself. "Because then you are not listening to God, but to these priests or scientists or whatever that you have appointed."K- What then do you make of the verse which tell us to puish the adulterers? Who is this we? Dont you see? The Quran is talking to the community. Dont you know that the Quran says that even the birds form COMMNITIES like us? We must learn to live in community. Individually we wont survive on earth and tht is a totally unhealthy concept.
Can you please post that verse?
And I didn't say we should live alone. I said that every individual on this planet will see the Quran, just as they see everything else, in a different light. So I don't see how EVERYONE is going to agree on EVERYTHING. It's not possible. The only way that's possible is if the majority is NOT following the scientific method, but just believe what you tell them. And, that contradicts the very book that you will be telling them to believe, because they won't be verifying it for themselves.
I know that we need laws for our community to function. We can't let people get away with crimes.
But a legal punishment for adultery just doesn't work. It makes no sense.
First of all, adultery is hard to prove (much easier than pre-marital sex, but still hard). Most people will get away with it. That's not fair, is it? How is that fair under God's law? Shouldn't everyone who does bad get bad in return? That certainly won't be happening.
And there will be cases in which the person did nothing wrong except violate a superficial contract. How is it fair, under God, that a person gets punished for doing no actual wrong?
And what will the punishment actually do? It won't turn back the clock. It won't get the couple back together and fix the problem. What will happen is that the spouse who committed adultery will now legally break the contract through a divorce and possibly make a new one with the person he had an affair with. What would that solve?
This law will not improve any relationships, the spouses who would be unfaithful would just be ungrateful.
And what the fuck happened to "forgiveness?"JK- How do you judge what is morally right or wrong? Again the scientific method comes in. Theres no other way. The QUran mentions BOTH moral and legal issues.
I'm sorry, but the scientific method cannot be used for moral issues. We all have a built in compass that guides us. It's called our conscience. That's what every religion is based on.
JK- And this is where you are wrong. If this were the case we didnt need bank contracts or any other for tht matter. Your reaacting entirely emotional. GOD in the Quran specifically commands us TO WRITE DOWN/TRANSCRIBE financial tranactions and those i think we can agree are less important than a living child. The point which you fail to get is that you we aint safe on our own. We need to live together and cooperate. Again think.
No, this is where you prove yourself wrong. We need contracts to make sure that others don't trick us and take what is ours. So you have proven yourself wrong because...
- the quran instructs us to have contracts because there are bad people out there. That means no perfect society for you.
- whether we decide to write everything down or not is a PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL decisions, and we will face INDIVIDUAL consequences of our actions. How would you feel about spending time in jail because you failed to write down a bussiness transaction??? Not very good, I assume. I believe the rest of the commands could also be personal. Directed not to society as a whole, but to us as individuals.
And I'm feel sorry for you if you fail to see the difference between writing down a financial agreement and signing a contract with your life partner.
The only argument you can make for having marriage contracts is for financial support for the kids if the partner leaves. In today's world, we have something called DNA tests, which can determine the biological parents so there is no need to have a contract. In fact, in that situation a contract can actually be decieving.
A piece of paper does not change anything.
Two people will only stick together if they really, honestly, wish to stick together. That is a fact. No amount of ink and paper will change that. No type of punishment will change that either.JK- Im sorry but this is not immediately adultery, only if you dont enter into a contract with the person who your having sex with. Your again confusing moral and legal issues. GOD does not issue legal punishments in regards to individual moral issues. GOD Bless!
Moral issues and legal issues contradict each other, that's why if the quran is teaches us both, it is contradicting itself.
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But a legal punishment for adultery just doesn't work. It makes no sense.
First of all, adultery is hard to prove (much easier than pre-marital sex, but still hard). Most people will get away with it. That's not fair, is it? How is that fair under God's law? Shouldn't everyone who does bad get bad in return? That certainly won't be happening.
And there will be cases in which the person did nothing wrong except violate a superficial contract. How is it fair, under God, that a person gets punished for doing no actual wrong?
And what will the punishment actually do? It won't turn back the clock. It won't get the couple back together and fix the problem. What will happen is that the spouse who committed adultery will now legally break the contract through a divorce and possibly make a new one with the person he had an affair with. What would that solve?
This law will not improve any relationships, the spouses who would be unfaithful would just be ungrateful.
And what the **** happened to "forgiveness?"Punishment for adultery/lewdness in the quran is when you have witnesses. That brings it into the public sphere and not just two people getting it on while cheating on someone else. This is perfectly justified as even now we have laws against indecent exposure etc. If a person is cheating on his spouse and there is no proof other than the two who actually did it, then that's not what the legal side is concerned with. Therefore, the law isn't there to make problems in the marriage and the issues the spouses have go away but to ensure that if it is happening in the public sphere/witnesses, it is dealt with to keep the social fabric intact for all. Discretion is the better part of valour after all .
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Peace all,
I also will mention that punishment according Quran is there to realize for all believers that it's not OK to just do as you like in all situations in life. We have to think before act, and also be aware of the consequenses of our acts.
So even if you are not caught by a court of having cheating on your girlfriend/wife then still the moral effect exists.
When we have promise a spouse to be faithful then we shall try our very best to live up to that promises. We know also from quran that divorcions are legal and recommended if the couple cannot be happy and faithful to eachother any longer.
So I think Quran doesn't make it difficult for us, it's there to help us see the imortance of responsibility and the value of living a healthy life with high moral and ethics because that is best for a happy developed community.
But what upsets me is that people have make it difficult themselves by adopting strange and not necessary customs when it comes to marriage.
It shouldn't be expensive to get married with your spouse because it's an agreement only and you can celebrate it as you like.
I know that many have that excuse, I cannot afford to get married hmm that so ridiculous.
You and your spouse decide what you want to do, if u want to celebrate it with someone or not or just inform relatives that you have sign the contract now and people are able to leave their congrats if the like.
Peace
Maria -
Punishment for adultery/lewdness in the quran is when you have witnesses. That brings it into the public sphere and not just two people getting it on while cheating on someone else. This is perfectly justified as even now we have laws against indecent exposure etc. If a person is cheating on his spouse and there is no proof other than the two who actually did it, then that's not what the legal side is concerned with. Therefore, the law isn't there to make problems in the marriage and the issues the spouses have go away but to ensure that if it is happening in the public sphere/witnesses, it is dealt with to keep the social fabric intact for all. Discretion is the better part of valour after all
peace SC, that makes a bit more sense. But I dont know. I'll have to think about it. P
EDIT Just so people know, my intent to question, not to attack.
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Peace "phoenix",
peace Jonny,What guarantee is there that that will happen? If it does, WHEN will it happen? You are saying that we'll be living in a utopia in the future, and I can't believe you. And once again you are contradicting yourself because you said that free-will is just an illusion. If everything we do is decided by past events, then we as individuals and as a society will not make any progress. And that's a fact. You can either stick with your no free will theory or your utopia theory, but you can't have it both ways.
JK- You see it will happen naturally. People will realize that science is the only way to go and we can see the tendency of people moving towards that which makes their lifes better and more prosperous. Freewill or not has nothing to do with it and there is no contradiction whatsoever.
And modern science will soon destroy the very planet that gave birth to us, hopefully your enlightened scientific community will find another one to devour.
JK- I think now your being ridiculous. Its not modern science which is destroying the planet. On the contary rekneable energy sources are trying to save the planet but those Mullah sheikhs of saudi want more money and hence theyr currently resisting these to sell their filthy oil which is the source of much polution today. Science has and always will work for the betterment of the environment altogether. The corporates and the elite are the ones ruining it.
But anyway, as a scientist, you can only trust empirical observations. So there is absolutely NO WAY that you can say that there is a "high tendency" that the "hypocrisy must disappear" except by blind faith.
JK- You can already se this happening. I observed this in my own sunni family. Theyr recognizing that science is the only way to go and that iof tehy wanna lead a prosperous lifes theyd ultimately have to change themselves and their cultural biases altogether.
But even if what you are saying is true, I do not live in a perfect world. I live in the real world. In the present, to be precise. I am alive RIGHT NOW. If the Quran is a book of guidance, and if it's laws don't work TODAY, then it is completely useless to us, isn't it?
JK- They do work. Theyr just waiting to be accepted. If one doesnt accept them then whos fault is it, the Quran's or the ones who dont accept it?
You, and Arnold, keep saying that in the future the Quran will work, and we'll live in a perfect world governed by quranic law, so let me ask you this Why the hell are we wasting our time with this book NOW? What good has god done to us, and the people who lived a thousand years before us, by giving us a book that cannot be used?THere's a difference, but it's certainly not vast. Democracy is supposed to be fool proof too, yet there are corrupt politicians everywhere who are exploiting the masses. And these scientists...will they be any different than the ones at NASA who spend billions sending their little toys to Mars when millions of people are dying of hunger in their own country? Just because someone follows "the scientific method" doesn't mean they are moral people.
JK- First of all wer not wasting our time. Someone has to start before a revolution takes place and you should know this. We should consider oursleves lucky with the knowledge at hand and work with it to lead the way for a better tomorrow. As for the scinetific community the most moral people are amongst them and theres no link betwen them and the corrupt politicians you mention which leads us back to the Elite. It seems your still having probs differentioating btw the scientific community and the elite corporates who i agree even wanna and to some extent do succeed in controlling the scientific community and this has to stop.
And there is just so much wrong with this, I could keep on typing through Spring. It just won't work.
And even if it will, there is no reason for you to believe (as a scientist) that it will because this has never worked before. In fact, all data points in the opposite direction.
For this to work, you will need your perfect society, which will never happen either.
And let me quote myself. "Because then you are not listening to God, but to these priests or scientists or whatever that you have appointed."JK- I never said we wuld live in a perfect society but things tend towards perfection. This is obvious.
Can you please post that verse?
JK- All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.
And I didn't say we should live alone. I said that every individual on this planet will see the Quran, just as they see everything else, in a different light. So I don't see how EVERYONE is going to agree on EVERYTHING. It's not possible. The only way that's possible is if the majority is NOT following the scientific method, but just believe what you tell them. And, that contradicts the very book that you will be telling them to believe, because they won't be verifying it for themselves.
JK- No on the contrary the Quran's message would be in agreement with science. People have different understandings of the Quran because theyr not employing the scientific method not because they are. You have it the exact opposite way around.
I know that we need laws for our community to function. We can't let people get away with crimes.
But a legal punishment for adultery just doesn't work. It makes no sense.JK- It makes no sense because you havnt given a thought in that direction and didnt process the arguments presented to you on this forum regarding this issue, inc mine.
First of all, adultery is hard to prove (much easier than pre-marital sex, but still hard). Most people will get away with it. That's not fair, is it? How is that fair under God's law? Shouldn't everyone who does bad get bad in return? That certainly won't be happening.
JK- This is silly because this is only difficult right now because one hasnt given it enough thought. The same applied to bank robberies and even today whenever money is transported on a truck on the road it is highly possible that the thieves get away with it. This doesnt mean we should quit following it or do nothing about it or dont pounish the thieves who get caught just because some get away. Wht kinna reasoning is tht? Now i dont understand what how your differentiating btw adultery and pre-marital sex. Anyways as i said i dont tend to use the term "marriage" anymore since its a religious term. With todays technology DNA tests etc all make it relatively easy to take those to account whove commited adultery thus trying to escape legal responsibility.
And there will be cases in which the person did nothing wrong except violate a superficial contract. How is it fair, under God, that a person gets punished for doing no actual wrong?
JK- Not getting into a contract would mean shying away from responsibility and everyone knows tht this is wrong. If one does not have the knoweldge yet in this regard, which i highly doubt any sane person would, then GOD wouldnt punis him/her since He judges by intentions. In tht case it is the repsonsibility of those who know to enlighten the others and get the laws put into action which is exactly wht wer trying to do.
And what will the punishment actually do? It won't turn back the clock. It won't get the couple back together and fix the problem. What will happen is that the spouse who committed adultery will now legally break the contract through a divorce and possibly make a new one with the person he had an affair with. What would that solve?
JK- Another silly logic. This is the same as saying "Why punish a murderer/rapist? It wouldnt turn back the clock." Theres an abvious flaw with this argument. Punishments are there so tht other memebers of society learn and dare not to do the same activites or theyll most probably face the consequences which in turn leads to correction and prosperity. I mean this is so obvious it wasnt even worth mentioning.
This law will not improve any relationships, the spouses who would be unfaithful would just be ungrateful.
JK- As mentioned above it would ensure tht repsonsibility be taken and this is the primary issue. Saving/Improving a relationship is an entirely different issue.
And what the **** happened to "forgiveness?"I'm sorry, but the scientific method cannot be used for moral issues. We all have a built in compass that guides us. It's called our conscience. That's what every religion is based on.No, this is where you prove yourself wrong. We need contracts to make sure that others don't trick us and take what is ours. So you have proven yourself wrong because...
JK- Without written contracts nothing in the world works because the human beings' psyche is HIGHLY VOLATILE. Contracts are there to instill stability. Religion has done no good to humanity and i refrain from using this word. It is unscientific and unquranic.
- the quran instructs us to have contracts because there are bad people out there. That means no perfect society for you.
JK- I never said tht wed have a perfect society only tending towards perfection.
- whether we decide to write everything down or not is a PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL decisions, and we will face INDIVIDUAL consequences of our actions. How would you feel about spending time in jail because you failed to write down a bussiness transaction??? Not very good, I assume. I believe the rest of the commands could also be personal. Directed not to society as a whole, but to us as individuals.
JK- Again thi is silly. People need to have edication and in most European countries parents maybe sent to jail for not sending their children to school. Education is a must and theres no way around it. Nobody should be allowed to choose to remain uneducated. Everyone needsprimary education as well as being made aware of the laws in a country. Without this nothing works.
And I'm feel sorry for you if you fail to see the difference between writing down a financial agreement and signing a contract with your life partner.
JK- And i feel sorry for you if you fail to see that with your partner the signing of the contract is much MORE IMPORTANT than tht of a finacial transaction. Have you ever asked yourself why financial transactions are made? To ensure no one can shy away from reposnsibility and the money is safe. Now why do sexual partners have to sign it? So that no one shies away from repsonsibility and the CHILD is safe. The first is centered around money whist the second is centered around a living human child for heavens sake.
The only argument you can make for having marriage contracts is for financial support for the kids if the partner leaves. In today's world, we have something called DNA tests, which can determine the biological parents so there is no need to have a contract. In fact, in that situation a contract can actually be decieving.
JK- This is the same as saying "Today we have IP tracers so if no contract has been made during the finacial trnactions we can still track them down". DNA tests are used as a last resort. Why should the givernment spend millions of dollars to run after people who shy away fom repsonsibility? It doesnt make any sense.
A piece of paper does not change anything.
Two people will only stick together if they really, honestly, wish to stick together. That is a fact. No amount of ink and paper will change that. No type of punishment will change that either.JK- The piece of paper ensures responsibility and thts wht wer focusing on. The relationship itself is 2ndary here.
Moral issues and legal issues contradict each other, that's why if the quran is teaches us both, it is contradicting itself.
JK- Although here the issue was a legal one i have to disagree with you here. The Quran mentions both and both need to be addressed in order for a society to prosper. If the Quran only addressed moral issues why does it mention to write down finacial contracts for eg? Dont you see that the Quran takes into account that people have a tendency to be irresponsible? If it didnt do tht then it wldnnt be of much use. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
JK- You see it will happen naturally. People will realize that science is the only way to go and we can see the tendency of people moving towards that which makes their lifes better and more prosperous. Freewill or not has nothing to do with it and there is no contradiction whatsoever.
And when will they realize that?
Please show me proof that society always "tends towards perfection." I find it very, very hard to believe that.JK- I think now your being ridiculous. Its not modern science which is destroying the planet. On the contary rekneable energy sources are trying to save the planet but those Mullah sheikhs of saudi want more money and hence theyr currently resisting these to sell their filthy oil which is the source of much polution today. Science has and always will work for the betterment of the environment altogether. The corporates and the elite are the ones ruining it.
What uses oil? what uses CFCs that destroy the Ozone? isn't it the facilities that you said almost everyone enjoys today? Will these mullah sheikhs of sauid have any power if we stopped driving our luxury cars? Wouldn't millions of people be better off if NASA stopped wasting billions of dollars on trying to find life on Mars?
I'm not arguing against the scientific method, but against your idea that technological developments will create a better society. Unless you have proof that it's going to happen, you cannot believe that it ever will.JK- They do work. Theyr just waiting to be accepted. If one doesnt accept them then whos fault is it, the Quran's or the ones who dont accept it?
OK. But you are yet to PROVE that these laws work.
- I never said we wuld live in a perfect society but things tend towards perfection. This is obvious.
It is not obvious, and you calling something obvious won't make me believe it. I need to see some proof.
and I asked you for the verse where it mentions the punishment for adulterers, but nevermind.JK- No on the contrary the Quran's message would be in agreement with science. People have different understandings of the Quran because theyr not employing the scientific method not because they are. You have it the exact opposite way around.
It has nothing to do with the scientific method. On some things people will agree, but others they won't, no matter how much of the scientific method they follow. For example a literal vs symbolic interpretation of the Quran.
JK- Not getting into a contract would mean shying away from responsibility and everyone knows tht this is wrong. If one does not have the knoweldge yet in this regard, which i highly doubt any sane person would, then GOD wouldnt punis him/her since He judges by intentions. In tht case it is the repsonsibility of those who know to enlighten the others and get the laws put into action which is exactly wht wer trying to do.
Let's say you have a girlfriend. You love her. You are completely committed to her. You KNOW that you are going to spend the rest of the life with her. Now, why do you need it written down? You have yet to explain that to me. If you didn't want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you wouldn't sign a contract. So the contract really is unecessary. You will tell others that you have decided to live together (or get married) and they will be your witnesses (if you need them). The idea of responsibility has nothing to do with a contract, since a dishonest person can also sign a contract. People can lie and pretend to be committed to someone. I'll reply to the rest later...
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It shouldn't be expensive to get married with your spouse because it's an agreement only and you can celebrate it as you like.
I know that many have that excuse, I cannot afford to get married hmm that so ridiculous.
Maria I don't think it's always about the ceremony of marriage that people complain that they can't afford. You're right that modest ceremonies/parties are better to keep costs down and sensible.
But it's what happens afterwards. The need for a house, transport, food, expenses of daily life are not cheap these days. Young people who are living with their parents and don't have much to their names and are not in a position to not be able to afford it and that is unfortunately not ridiculous at all.
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I know that many have that excuse, I cannot afford to get married hmm that so ridiculous.
So like, I cannot marry because my work just pays for school and rent. I can't have a descent job since society requires a college diploma and skills. I cannt get a wife because i live with my Mother who thinks i ll be her little cuddle bear for ever. Would you like to live with your husband's mom?
I personally think that my mother just makes my life harder since she keeps me spoiled. If i am sick she ll take me to a doctor. If I am hungry she will feed me. If I am cold, she ll buy me cloths. But the thing is I have to do this by myself because I don't want to be spoiled, I ll be one useless person later. So taking that in mind, If i must to be independent to "own" a wife it also means i must have an excelent job, a house, a car and saved money for summer vacations... don't tell me no its not true i wont believe you...
Girls now a days won't recognize a man until he is spending on them. Do you think beautiful women will settle down for nothing? They have beauty and they put it in the markey for us, the higher bidding man. It's society now. Women just because they get that little attention from someone they think that they are hot therefor asking to be spoiled. Do you really think a woman will want me broke? even some fat ugly person would want me rich just because she knows i will ask for sex(although i wont i dont like fat ugly girls) Seriously.. will a woman go for my looks and my personality?! First reaction would be, why don't get a reaaaaaaaaaal job!
I don't want an ugly woman who would love me because i am nice to her. I am generally nice and honest to everyone. I like nice looking people with good personalities.I am not bad looking although just cant provide money for luxury... It doesn't mean i cheat on everyone........
Women are costly. Most of the time i cant level with their mentality since they are stupid. but the thing that keeps me comming is that little beauty they use to seduce me. It's crazy. I like beautiful idiots. Most girls i been with have no clue about the world all they know is that they are beautiful and that they can get any man they want depending on their beauty. its so hard to find a smart and good looking girl who is relaxed and doesnt flip out once in a while.... geez
-peace
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK
And when will they realize that?
Please show me proof that society always "tends towards perfection." I find it very, very hard to believe that.What uses oil? what uses CFCs that destroy the Ozone? isn't it the facilities that you said almost everyone enjoys today? Will these mullah sheikhs of sauid have any power if we stopped driving our luxury cars?JK- The problem is we cannot immediately stop driving cars. People have a tendency to continue as theyve learned or wht theyr used to but slowly and gradually they realize and this can be seen in all parts of the world where we have people who actually care for the environment. Others will follow gradually. Take the example of cigararette smoking. It took many years for the US and Britain to realize the dangers and then quit it altogether but they did it, so did the EU and Germany too is following although theyr a bit more lazy in this regard.
Wouldn't millions of people be better off if NASA stopped wasting billions of dollars on trying to find life on Mars?
JK- Im sorry to say but only shortsighted people would make such a claim. Ofcourse one might say lets help the poor first before going to mars BUT for that we already have and must have separate institutions. NASA's duty is to explore space which if successful can help humanity tremedously so much tht much if not all poverty can be eradicated at once. Ever given tht a thought?
I'm not arguing against the scientific method, but against your idea that technological developments will create a better society. Unless you have proof that it's going to happen, you cannot believe that it ever will.
JK- If you cant see tht then i cant really help you accept tht you may wanna read up some scientific journals in this regard or ask the JREF how it helps. Im sure they can give you tons of info.
OK. But you are yet to PROVE that these laws work.
JK- Yes thts true and wer willing to do these tests. We can say already tht theyll most probably work because the other Quranic statments have withstood the test of time and also the verse are connected by an intricate mathetical pattern. Thus all thts left if to test the laws by applying them practically and thts exactly wht we wanna do but ppl have to be ready and willing and it would greatly amaze me if this wld not happen sooner or later. It would create a paradox for me.
It is not obvious, and you calling something obvious won't make me believe it. I need to see some proof.
and I asked you for the verse where it mentions the punishment for adulterers, but nevermind.JK- As i said reg. the first part plz refer to scientific journals or the JREF. As for the verse
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes(the lashes MAY be interpreted as being symbolic). Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
As regards to women theyr more protcted though
Those who accuse chaste women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.It has nothing to do with the scientific method. On some things people will agree, but others they won't, no matter how much of the scientific method they follow. For example a literal vs symbolic interpretation of the Quran.
JK- I dont agree with you since this would lead to a paradox. If one applies the scientific method correctly meaning in this case taking grmar, context and use of terminology into account one can figure out whther some phrase is used literally or symbolically. Just because many people have never engaged in this work before or dont have the know how as yet, doesnt mean it aint possible.
Let's say you have a girlfriend. You love her. You are completely committed to her. You KNOW that you are going to spend the rest of the life with her. Now, why do you need it written down? You have yet to explain that to me.
JK- Its easy. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW WHETHER YOUR THOUGHTS WOULD CHANGE TOMORROW BECAUSE OF THE HIGH VOLATILE NATURE OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE. I made this very clear but you obviously missed it. You can see this everywhere. Today you love your partner, tomorrow something happens and your separated and/or dont like each other anymore sometimes even to the extent of hating one another. So please be realistic. The children should not suffer because of this. And btw im not talking abt a mere peace of paper. The point is to be registered at the society and im thinking of free minds to start with an electronic signature contract for couples. Well have a database of those who wanna be together and if anyone shies away from responsibility tht person wld be taken to account later on.
If you didn't want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you wouldn't sign a contract. So the contract really is unecessary. You will tell others that you have decided to live together (or get married) and they will be your witnesses (if you need them). The idea of responsibility has nothing to do with a contract, since a dishonest person can also sign a contract. People can lie and pretend to be committed to someone. I'll reply to the rest later...
JK- Ofcourse you can lie but then youll be taken to account as one of the partners whos being left alone will then go to the community and ask for her partner to be responsible. Theyll then open the database check whether the partner has signed and then take him to account easily because his name, date of birth, the person's agreement on the set rules and regulations etc would all be readily at their disposal so no one would shy away from responsibility. If this is not done then one can always say "I didnt sleep with her", wht the hell are you talking about. Then you have to run after tht person and who knows he might be in the end of the world throwing parties, ocne youve got him make expensive DNA tests and then lastly find out tht it was actually the woman who was lying because she wanted the money. It all gets very complicated which a written or an e-contract could solve easily as ive already mentioned. GOD Bless!
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Peace Truth and Weinmar,
Ok, you are of course right in what you says that it costs alot to live on your own. I nearly forgot about that because I live here in Good old rich Sweden.
If you cannot survive here the society will help you pay your rent and for food.
But please don't see me as a spoiled rich woman, because I'm not, i have never been rich and I have always have less money than I need.
But in a marriage in todays modern world, both males and females works outside home for their living so the male shouldn't feel like he has to have the only responsibility to put food on the table.
I do understand though that it's kind of impossible to get married when you still study but I think it depends on where you are living in the world and how the society looks like where you are living.
Peace
Maria -
YOU CAN NEVER KNOW WHETHER YOUR THOUGHTS WOULD CHANGE TOMORROW BECAUSE OF THE HIGH VOLATILE NATURE OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE.
Speak for yourself, Jonny.
My opinion of my partner may change, and with that my committment to her, but I do not see how that makes a written contract necessary. All I need to do then, is to break the contract through a divorce (in fact, all i need to do is tell my partner i don't want to see her again and it's over). There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm sure you agree.
what is wrong is if I want to stick with my partner, but I fool around with another woman just for the pleasure, and don't give enough attention to my partner because of it. that is wrong.
Getting to the actual matter, does it deserve legal punishment? isn't it something private? what I did was morally wrong, but i did not actually take away anyone's freedom, or anyone's rights, or anyones property.
We cannot start punishing people for hurting others' feelings. Or can we? You are yet to give me a decent argument.What Savage carrot said, about the punishment being for adultery in public, makes a little more sense, but it still has huge holes in it.
So, my question is, is it is legal punishment? or a personal punishment?
I think this is where the infamous "beating wives" verse would come into play. I would punish my partner by leaving th e bed, by seperating, until the problem is solved. What is your opinion of this understanding?I will reply to the rest of your points later. I have been too busy playing God of War II. But I think the above is pretty much the crux of the issue.