verse 4:3 and polygamy
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Peace be upon you sister TBA,
I apologize for assuming you were my brother in deen. Your stance on the issue should have been a big clue !!
Any understanding has to be considered in order to reply to it.
Your 3rd statement is also based on some assumptions so the memo should be implemented by you too !
Salaamun alaikum,
To Tanveer
I have one question for you too why would you assume that I am not one person but many ? confused P
peace
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Enough already?it was a blast for a minute, no hard feelings?but let?s get back to the matter at hand?
You said, (and I quote)
?The same word ?akhta? that is used for biological sister in 412, 4176, and first part of 423, is used in second part of 423, meaning biological sisters. The same word ?akhta? is used in 423 FOUR times in various forms, meaning the same in each occurrence, i.e. biological sister. If the God had meant ?two sisters in the system/deen? then He would have used ?fee aldeen? after ?ukhtayn? in 423, just like He did for ?brothers in the system? / ?ikhwanukum fee aldeen? in 911 and 335.The danger in a person extracting and isolating words from different ayats is that a person runs the risk of taking issues out of context, (which was done in 43, i.e. the traditional understanding is that this is the ayat which supposedly gives males permission to marry more than one wife). As I have shown you, in 41-14, these ayats, in context, speak to guardianship and has nothing to do with marriage.
Point One one needs to understand that two biological sisters can be an ?akhta? and a ?bint? to their mother AT THE SAME TIME (same goes for brothers, ?akh? and ?ibn?).
Therefore, in 412, if a man or woman dies and has no living parents or children, but has brothers or sisters, it is reasonable to understand that in this instance, that the correct usage is ?akh? or ?akhta? because in this instance, they are not ?bints? or ?ibns?, but still have the blood tie.
Point Two Because you have isolated certain words, you have taken the ayats (911 & 335) out of context.
In 911, when you look at the ayat in context, the reference is to polytheists who have repented and are committed, then as a result of this, they are your ?brethren in the deen? (no blood ties whatsoever).
In 335, when you look at the ayat in context, the reference is to the adopted sons, even if you do not know who their fathers are, they are still your ?brethren in the deen? (no blood tie whatsoever).
Tanveer, although I appreciate your comments, I would like to hear from some other participants in this think tank.
I want to be very careful not to make haram what the God has made halal (as the God had chided the prophet regarding just this behavior), so I have not concluded my understanding until all rebuttals have been examined.
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Tanveer, although I appreciate your comments, I would like to hear from some other participants in this think tank.
I want to be very careful not to make haram what the God has made halal (as the God had chided the prophet regarding just this behavior), so I have not concluded my understanding until all rebuttals have been examined.
Dear sister
In my opinion, Brother Tanveer's understanding is closer to reality .After examining the available data till date i think,,,Polygynous relationships are allowed with no upper limit, it would depend if one can afford it and is able to handle multiple marriages in a just way. The example of Mohammad(pbuh) should be a supporting evidence.
peace
sikandar -
To Siki
Your comments are appreciated, however, when a person uses language such as "in my opinion", "I think" and "should be"...this type of reasoning does not provide a sound basis for concluding an argument.
Question 1 just so that we are both on the same page...what do you mean when you say "closer to reality"?
Question 2 please provide the references to the available data that you examined which caused you "to think..."
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Peace Siki, All
If there is no upper limit how can there be replacement ?
warner !
Good question,,,,B.A
See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etcTanveer
Brother! looks like, it needs more work, so lets do it.peace
siki -
To Siki
You made the statement B.A., See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etc.
I do not understand what point you are making, please explain.
TheBookAlone
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Peace Siki
I was referring to exchange/replace in 420 and 3352.
These two verses, when read together, prove that in God's religion a believing man is forbidden from taking wife upon wife; which actully means that it is polygamy which is forbidden because there can be no polygamy unless a man is allowed to take wife upon wife.
"If you desire to give up a wife and to take another woman in her place...." (420)
Here the believer is allowed to take another woman as wife, on condition that he divorces his present wife. So the man is single. His taking a woman as wife now is actully a single man's marriage.
On the other hand, the Prophet is forbidden from replacig any one of his wives by another woman from outside his family; for it would actually be taking wife upon wife since he is a polygamous man.
Another mistake I notice is brother Tanveer's claim that nikah always means marry. No. It means sexual intercourse in 243 and 2460.
From Muhammad Asad's footnote on NKH in 2460
Although nikah is almost always used in the Qur'an in the sense of "marriage" or "marrying", there are undoubtedly exceptions from this general rule for instance, the manner in which the verbal form yankihu is used in verse 3 of this s?rah. These exceptions confirm the view held by some philologists of great renown, e.g., Al-Jawhar? or Al-Azhar?, to the effect that "in the speech of the Arabs the original meaning of nikah is sexual intercourse (al-vat)".
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
To Siki
You made the statement B.A., See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etc.
I do not understand what point you are making, please explain.
TheBookAlone
Quran is an amazing jigsaw puzzle, whenever one thinks that he has reached a conclusion regarding some issue from it, the book confronts you with something new.That is why i have stopped being sure about my derived conclusions, and have started to use the above mentioned pharases, which leave room for an improved understanding.
I thought I had reached to some understanding regarding polygamy,but here i was confornted with a very relevent question by brother warner?
i hope you understand now
peacesiki
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My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?
Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!
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Salaam Zehra
My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?
Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!
Blame it on our ancestors who could have made it much easier for us if they had allowed open discussions of the quraan when they were still familiar with its language, and not hanged their swords over the heads of thinkers. We are starting from the "invention of the wheel", and May God help us.
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Peace be with you, Zehra
The Quran is clear and it is not open to all kind of interpretations. When we find the right interpretation there will be no contradictions. It is we who are confused and in turn it is we who confuse the Quraan. The main reason for this is we come to the Quraan with lot of mental baggage and loaded with useless information. Our beliefs, assumptions and our preferences cloud our minds and keep us away from understanding the Quraan.
Since you seem to be confused or frustrated and there can be others like you (most of us have come through this, I guess) I like to share one experience with you. Till recent, I used to believe Qibla meant direction of Salat and that direction is towards Mecca. Then I thought it might be Jerusalem though I never faced Jeruslaem. Discussing and arguing much in this board to uphold what I used to believe and also bringing evidences from the Quraan and the Bible in support of qibla, direction of prayer recently I wanted to study this issue on my own possibly thanks to Ayman. (Ayman has his own view on qibla/ focal point which I do not agree and that is beyond my little writing here). But when I read the Quraan to find out about the Qibla (possibly with lot of determination and a clear mind) I realized there is no direction of salat (qibla) mentioned in the Quraan at all; No single verse supporting this. I even realized the verses against such a qibla used to look like verses in support of it. All depends on how strong our conviction and how deep our minds are set on different beliefs and whether we are prepared to shed all those to understand Gods message. Also how we are going to break down all these idols and read and understand the Quraan and its clear message. This site is only 4 years. We just started; maybe in another few years (who know, maybe months) if Allah wills we will sort most issues; clear without contradiction.
So do not give up, keep learning.
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Peace Samia
Is this word available in the Quran?
Neither of them is mentioned in the quraan.
Only the singular, dual and plural of the masculine form are mentioned yateem; yateemayn and yataama (the latter is the plural for the masculine or a group of mixed gender). -
Peace Samia
So can we say yata_man nisa (4127) is female orphans
Although ?yataama? can be mixed gender can we take it to mean male or female according to context as in 43?
I believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43 .
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To Zehra
I agree with Warner.
In the beginning of my studies, I too, felt frustrated at times?but I continuously sought God?s assistance.
How do we get assistance from God? We should seek assistance by being patient and committed. (2153)
The ?Law of Guidance? is such that if you wish to be guided, you will be (See 2213; 2272; 1025; 1327 and many other places). God establishes Truth to be the truth with His Words (87 & 1082), not with various human interpretations, which is subject to error.
How are we to know what God meant and what?s the right thing? God says that this Book has clear interpretations (2533) and there is no change in His Words (1064). God is very specific when He uses words and there is no ambiguity in them whatsoever.
God says that guidance will come to us from Him and whoever follows His guidance, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve (23. Put your TRUST in God and approach this Book with the sincere intention to be guided aright and in time the Law of Guidance will allow you to know what God means and what the right thing to do is.
I hope this helps.
TheBookAlone