Adultery

almarh0m

Salaamun alaykum

Peace Almarhom

I used circumstantial evidence in contrast to eye witness evidence. DNA can be material evidence but is DNA sufficient as the only evidence? Surrogate mothers are one exception to the rule. Do you think DNA evidence could have produced against Mary in case of her child Jesus?

You must elaborate on sworn testimonies.

We are discussing Adultery and Fornication here in an Islamic context and I assume in an Islamic Setting right ? Now, how can Evidence from DNA Testing of the accused Adulterors be Circumstantial ? If the Male's DNA ( traces of his semen is found in the female accused's fallopian tube or in her genitalia ) is present in the co-accused vagina , would you think that they got there by Sitting on a Public rest Room in a Shopping Center ? If I were accused of committing adultery with someone, I would be offering sample of my DNA to the authority ASAP . In cases of Adultery/Fornication , DNA Test is Conclusive as it is Direct evidence .

As for the 'Sworn Witnesses Testimony' from all the verses Cited thus far , it constitutes Direct Evidence . The Four Witnesses Stipulated in the cited verse , all would have taken an Oath in the name of God to tell the Truth , therefore the likelihood of their Perjuring themselves is Minimal . Of course their Testimony will have to corroborate each other or else the Testimony will be Rejected and The case of Adultery thrown out for lack of Evidence . By the way , my understading of Adultery or Fornication is an illicit sexual intercourse by married man/woman with another Married/ or unmarried man/woman , what is yours ?

Peace

Samia

Salaam warner

So what is illegal sex within the family?

My words are not terminology, and are not to be taken in this respect. They just serve in helping me explain what I understand. It is what I later explained as
"closed -circle sex" where one at least is married and suspected by the spouse.
.

You may take either "terminologies" or come up with your own in your own words, if I were successful in making you understand what I mean..

warner

Peace Samia

It is my mistake; instead of your words I introduced the catchy ?closed circle? and later I could not explain my own term. It is a similar situation as the White House when it introduced Operation of Iraq Liberation and the acronym was OIL, which was not very nice for them so they changed it later.

Samia

Peace Samia

It is my mistake; instead of your words I introduced the catchy closed circle and later I could not explain my own term. It is a similar situation as the White House when it introduced Operation of Iraq Liberation and the acronym was OIL, which was not very nice for them so they changed it later.

rotfl

So, did you understand my "OIL"?

warner

Peace Samia

Zanah is to commit adultery (usually of the female and less often of simple fornication)

Zanun adultery, figuratively idolatry

From Hebrew Bible Dictionary, James Strong

Samia

Salaam warner

Zanah is to commit adultery (usually of the female and less often of simple fornication)

The quraan explicitly says 242 "The male and the female doers of "zena"....

Maybe because God knows that the jews accused women only of adultery, and so they changed the language to reflect this meaning (just as Arabic is sometimes being twisted to reflect misunderstandings).

And maybe the meaning in Hebrew could not be refleted in English other than by the word "adultery", just like the Arabic word.

warner

Peace Samia

242 describes the punishment for zina and calls it as Athaab/torture and 248 should refer to the same athaab. By these 2 verses it is clear a married man or woman committing illegal sex should be punished by 100 lashes.

Your stand is even for married people it has to be public sex for it to qualify as illegal sex and for sex within the family if it qualifies by 4 witnesses it will no longer be called sex within family but should be categorized as public sex.

Imagine a situation in which a wife commits sex outside marriage where the husband is the only witness and he brings the charge against her and he bears witness 4 times by Allah and a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is lying. In this situation if the wife does not go through the process explained in 248 and 9 to avert the punishment/athaab she will qualify as a zani and get the 100 lashes.

Will this not prove that zina does not have to be public sex?

phoenix1

peace
What I really don't get is why the Quran mentions public sex at all, let alone public gay sex.
I have never ever seen that happen. Never. It is such an uncommon practice. At least in today's world (who knows what those arabs used to do in the good ol' days). And having sex in public is something most people would intuitively avoid.
Is it sex as in sexual intercourse? or just lewd or immodest behavior?

warner

Peace Phoenix

Quraan doe not mention public sex.

siki

Dear warner

we have to keep the following points in mind ;

If you go through all the relevent verses, you will find , that Zina or Zani qualifies with the word 4 witnesses only, and when somebody has been established as a Zani , he/she should be whipped publically and only be married to a similar category, or with a non believer.

In rest of the verses , the word accusation is used ,and this accusation could be any thing short of 4 witnesses for any kind of illegal sex , Quran does not use the word accusation for Zina, because any such act would qualify to be "Zina", only when there are 4 witnesses and then it would be no more an accusation.
Even in the verses of spouse, "accusation" is used , not Zina, and God does not say that "if they cant bring four witnesses" but says 'without any witness except their own', and when the truth is established after sworn testimonies, the accused is not labeled as Zani , and no where it is commanded that she/he should be whipped 100 lashes, or be given punishment for Zina. It is been probably left to court /husband/family to take any appropriate action

Note in 24-4 the women is still a "Mohsinnat" till she is proved as a Zani by 4 witnesses.

.

peace

siki

warner

Peace Siki

I didn?t quite get you in certain parts of your post.

Do you think athaab in 248 is referring to a different punishment other than the athaab mentioned in 242.

The verses which use the word zina does not mention 4 witnesses either but we are expected to understand from the other verses it is so.

Bringing the accusation is same in both verses. And in 244 is given the requirement of 4 witnesses.

244 Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_

246 Wal lazina yarmu_na azwa_jahum

There is a difference between a spouse accusing the other and a third party accusing a man or a woman.

warner

Peace Siki

You must give credit to the eloquent and precise language of the Quran to convey the exact meaning of the verse without being too wordy.

Let me try with an example

There were no other witnesses to the theft other than Siki.
Siki can not produce any other witness to the theft because he is the only witness.

Which is better?
Which is correct?

Obviously Siki can not produce other witnesses since Siki is the only witness.

siki

Peace Phoenix

Quraan doe not mention public sex.

phoenix 1

I agree with warner here, we have been careless in using this word public sex. Zina is not public sex, but an unauthorized sexual act , which while being committed is witnessed by 4 people. If a husband and wife are witnessed by 4 people , i don't think they would qualify for 100 lashes.

peace
siki

siki

Dear warner

Adhaab' is general word for punishment , it could be any punishment . It could be 100 lashes as per 24-2 or even a confinement as per 4-15, when the proper charge of inter course cannot be proved and hence the women in 4-15 do not qualify as Zani. but is proved beyond doubt as lewd, and need restraining. When ever the accusation (sexual act) is proved by 4 witnesses, then it is most definitely the couple which has been witnessed, so see the next verse , 4-16 which calls them "Zanee".

I agree, there are still holes in our understanding, and we need to plug them, we are inching forward and Inshall ah we shall be able to reach a better understanding.

peace
siki

siki

Peace Siki

You must give credit to the eloquent and precise language of the Quran to convey the exact meaning of the verse without being too wordy.

Let me try with an example

There were no other witnesses to the theft other than Siki.
Siki can not produce any other witness to the theft because he is the only witness.

Which is better?
Which is correct?

Obviously Siki can not produce other witnesses since Siki is the only witness.

Applying the same sworn testimonies formula for a sole witness ,other than your own spouse, why not ?

peace

siki

warner

Peace Siki

Does 415 or 16 say Athaab.

In the context of the verses in Chapter 24 from 241 to 26 you can understand it is connected to a single subject, albeit broad. And 241 to 10 are on the same subject and these are legal verses. Isn?t it common sense the athaab in 248 is connected to 242?

warner

Applying the same sworn testimonies formula for a sole witness ,other than your own spouse, why not ?

peace

siki

Peace Siki

I do not understand your point , can you please clarify.

siki

Peace warner

I mean if there is a sole witness other than spouse, and he can solemnly affirm , then why doesn't that qualify her/him to be a zani ? why this exception? so i think swearing of spouse , does not make her/him Zani, and hence can not be given the punishment prescribed for "Zaneeis"

peace

siki

phoenix1

Sex in front of 4 or more people IS public sex. How is it any different?

jonny_k

Peace bro "phoenix",

Sex in front of 4 or more people IS public sex. How is it any different?

JK- 1) the Quran doesnt say that there have to be four simultaneous eye witnesses. One could be having sexual relations and witnessed firt by one, then a second, third and then fourth witness separetly and later they may all testify. So its not necessarily public. 2) four witnesses does NOT necessary mean direct eye witnesses of the event but could also be applied to indepenedent witnesses of DNA tests and/or other facts which solidly indicate that the event took place. GOD Bless!