The infamous 4:34--Verse on Society, not spouse issues

[arnoldyasin]

434 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women. They shall take full care of women with what they spend of their wealth. God has made men to excel in some areas and women to excel in some areas. Men must see to it that women are provided for, and that they are able to stand on their feet in the society. So, righteous women are obedient to Gods Ordinances and guard their moral values even in privacy, the Values that God Commands to be guarded. If you (the society) experience(s) rebellion from women against the Permanent Values, and they stand up against you, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, (you, the husbands will) leave them in their resting places apart from you. And keep admonishing them with examples that they stop rebelling, else they may receive chastisement through a court of law (just as rebellious men would) If they pay heed to you, seek not a way against them. God is Most High, Great.

This common misconception with the infamous verse 434 is all because of erronous explanations of the Quran that were written 300 after the blessed Prophet under the influence of non-Quranic sources. The rulers of the Islamic states seperated State from the Quran, and so the Quran had to be re-intpretated to fit the new circumstances. As the Quran is a Divine consitution, many verses and meaning were twisted to make the Quran a religious book instead a book that is meant to rule and free mankind. The Quran was the liberator of women, and the first writing in known human history to give the women the equal status of men. It gave her the right to vote, to own wealth, to trade, to choose her own spouse, to have alimony, to inherit and the list goes on and on. Like the famous Muhammed Iqbal said "If I was an atheist, I would have believed the Quran was written by intelligent women. "
This verse has been twisted to take away the rights that were originally given by God to women. The word Qawwam was twisted into 'Owner' or also 'Master' instead of its original Arabic meaning of 'Protector/Provider'. The word Darb has more then a 100 meanings, and from all of these meanings, they choose it to mean 'To beat women'. This contradicts not only the global message of the Quran, this also goes against the strict warning of the Prophet to never hit women.

To compensate the narrations that say the Prophet forbid wife-beating, they say the Prophet forbid wife-beating but that God allowed it! What a blasphemy.

Darb coming from the verb Dharaba is one of the most misunderstood words in the Quran. It has over a 100 meanings because the meaning of the word is determined by the object it relates too. Darb means to hit, beat, move, march on, to move from one place to the other, to bring forth a parable and many more. For example

"idribbiAAasaka alhajara" is normally translated with "hit the rock with your staff". But Asa does not immediately mean 'staff'', it refers to a state of unity, and with the staff it refers to the fingers unitying on its handle. Asa also means people or nation, as they are united. Al-hajara means rock or stone.

idribbi comes from Darb, and is refered to the rock. You can idrib the rock. Like I said before, Darb is determined by the object and the actions you can do with the object. So you can idrib=hit the rock, and you can also idrib=move the rock. This verse is from the story of Moses and is commonly mistranslated as Moses hitting the rock with his staff so water comes out. This is of course not only illogical, it is directly taken from the Bible. The Quran explains itself, and it is against the belief in the supernatural. Allah works His Will through fixed Laws given by Revelation and Nature.

So the verse means that Moses his people had to move the rock so they could access the water that was underneath it, which is logical as in the desert, water from the air is collected on the cold rock at night and then drips down to the ground. During the day, the rock protects the ground underneath against the sunrays, and thus water is always to be found in the ground underneath rocks.

The same logical approach also accounts for 434.
In verse 434 we are told to Idribuuhun the women if they rebel against the society or family. So what can we idrib with women

-We can idrib=hit the women, which is the common interpretation.
-We can idrib=seperate from the women
-We can idrib=admonish them with examples
-We can idrib=have sex with them

So what is more logical in 434? We first read that we must talk to them, then leave them alone in the bedroom to show you are serious, and then... what? Hit them? Does that really make sense? Does that really convince them, or just make them afraid of you? Also what does rebellion mean here? Can the rebellion be determined by the man himself? Or must this be done by the State? Must we seperate from them?

First of all, this verse does not refer to husband and wife, it uses the words Rijaal=men and Nisa=women in general. Also the verse gives the command that the men should be the providers of women, and thus must be the breadwinners in society. In today's Western society, we see that women try to achieve the same full carriere as men. They postpone childbirth, to pursue a carriere, and in this way don't have children in their best biological years.

This has become a severe problem in the Western world where women have children at a later age and thus risk deformed and diseased children, premature births and miscarrieges. Geneacologists say this a very harmful practice which must be stopped, and are even saying the government must step in and make sure women choose having children before having a carriere. Do you see how important this issue is?

So the infamous verse 434 is not about husband and wife relationship at all. It is about the roles of men and women which they must perform in society. Men must be the breadwinners, women must take care of the children. Of course they can and must work, but they must not postpone children in preference of a carriere as this will burden her and society with deformed children. If they do not listen, then society must try to admonish them, and if that doesn't help, then the State must step in and determine the matter.

This sounds weird maybe, that the State must step in when it comes to choosing carriere instead of children. But it is happening today in the West! Holland is now trying to seek a way, where women get the oppertunity to freeze their carriere so they can have children in the best biological phase of their life, which is between 21 and 30. The Quran is trying to help mankind to stay as close to their biological being as possible so they can develop in the best way as society and individual. There have been many studies on the best age for childbirth, but the common agreement is

"The latest of three Danish reports about reproductive history informs readers that fetal loss is high in women in their late 30s or older, irrespective of reproductive history. This should be taken into consideration in pregnancy planning and counselling.

In Japan, the goverment had to step in
"Gender equality has been a distant dream in Japan but a drastic national population decline is forcing the government to take steps to help women -- if only to encourage them to have more children."

"Japan has the highest number of elderly people and the lowest number of young as a percentage of its population.
Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has pledged to bring in policies that will prevent the falls in birth rates.
The falls have raised serious concerns about the country's future economic growth and how it can fund its pensions."

This is a global problem
"Japan isn't alone in worrying about the need to encourage births.
In the 25-nation European Union, the average birth rate is around 1.5, dropping to less than 1.3 in some countries, including Greece, Spain, Italy and new EU member nations in eastern Europe where fertility rates slumped after the collapse of communism. Last month, President Vladimir Putin called population declines of hundreds of thousands a year one of Russia's most serious problems and urged parliament to offer financial incentives for families to have more children.
"

This verse has nothing to do with beating your wife, it also has nothing to do with husband and wife relationship. So the attempts made by reformists to say this verse is about seperating from your wife is also false, as this verse is about the assigning of roles of the sexes in society. We know we can seperate from our wives if we want too, this is already explained clearly in other verses, also interpretating this verse as 'seperating from your wife' does not stop spouse-abuse. Only culteral development can do this. When the Islamic rulers seperated State from the Quran, the true meaning of this verse was changed as the State didn't accept the Quran as an authority on state-affairs. So the meaning was determined by the new Quranic status of only ruling individual life instead of State. The common understanding that this verse is about spouse relationship by both present sides has limited this important Quranic verse to a home situation, instead of an important society matter that is a very present problem in today's developed societies. Again the Quran shows it has the solutions for the problems of Mankind, will they not use their senses?

2110 O Mankind! Now We have revealed unto you a Book that is all about you and it will give you eminence. Will you not, then, use your sense?

Sources

-QXP3 by Dr.Shabbir Ahmed (not online yet)

-Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar
-Commentary on Al-Quran, a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali
-Arabic Dictionary by Raghib

Scientific Articles on Birthrate and Economical problems

note For the meaning of Darb meaning sex, see Raghib Darab al-Fahl an-naqah= the stud-camel covered the she camel

[unknownuser]

Salam Arnold,

What if we use the classical arabic definitions for r-j-l and n-s-a which would be

(ra-jeem-lam) HW 380-381, LL Vol 3 pgs 209-213

1. to go on foot, walk
2. to march

HW 1125, LL Vol 8 pgs 39-40
(nun-seen-alif)

1. to put off, postpone, delay, defer, procrastinate
2. to allow one time to repay a debt
3. long life longetivity

My current understanding of this verse and these words in particular is that we are still using "the erronous explanations of the Quran that were written 300 after the blessed Prophet under the influence of non-Quranic sources." to explain the Holy Quran.

If we stop forcing these words to mean "man" and "woman" the Quran opens up in a whole new way.

But, I think we've had this discussion before http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13124.msg109747#msg109747

Salam,
Arnab

[arnoldyasin]

Salam Arnab,

Dictionaries are not enough to understand the Quran. Your idea of Rajjal looks interresting the first time you read it, but it does not hold when you use Tasreef, cross-reference. See all other verses where Rajjal is present

http//www.textinmotion.com/words.jsp?word=%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%84

475 How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men\alrajjil and of the women and the children who are crying Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender!

498Except the feeble among men\alrajjil, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.

781Lo! ye come with lust unto men\alrajjil instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.

How would those on foot fit in this verse? And there are to many other examples where it does not fit. The Quran shows the true meanings. Your theory on that Rajjal is not gender based and means 'on foot' only does not hold when researched in the Quran, maybe only in a few verses. The Quran must be translated to its rootmeaning, but still the word is then determined by cross-reference and context.

[Angel]

Peace Arnold,

This is a global problem
"Japan isn't alone in worrying about the need to encourage births.
In the 25-nation European Union, the average birth rate is around 1.5, dropping to less than 1.3 in some countries, including Greece, Spain, Italy and new EU member nations in eastern Europe where fertility rates slumped after the collapse of communism. Last month, President Vladimir Putin called population declines of hundreds of thousands a year one of Russia's most serious problems and urged parliament to offer financial incentives for families to have more children.
""

In China and India the problem is the precise opposite.

China?s unethical one child policy is causing many problems voodoo. Since most families want a son many women are aborting females, in my Geography class my teacher showed us a newspaper article about an abandoned newborn Chinese girl dumped on the streets, many passengers walked by ignoring the baby, then finally a man picked it up chucked her away. Inevitably the ratio of males and females in the country will cause massive problems in the future. India has a more benign policy of encouraging people to have fewer children i.e. teaching the kids a song and dance about having just 2 children. India is so poor that in some areas girls as young as 11 are turning to prostitution and having sex up to 30 times a day.

It would be more convenient if people from China and India immigrated to countries where population decline is a problem, instead expecting women in them countries to have more babies and forcing Chinese and expecting Indian women to have less children. That way everybody is happy ;D.

Of course they can and must work, but they must not postpone children in preference of a carriere as this will burden her and society with deformed children.

is the 'and must work' your opinion or your interpretation of the Quran? Coz I hate work -[, ideally I would live off my husbands income forever if I ever get married! ignore eat.

God bless
peace

[arnoldyasin]

Salaam Angel,

This verse refers to keeping balance in society. China's solution creates unbalance, and is thus the wrong approach. But both India's and China's problem have to do with Economical status. It is proven that the Economical status of people also determines their birthrate. The poorer they are, the more children they have. So moving them to other countries is no solution at all. India and China's population must be educated and their economy must be better organised so that there are less poor people. This would solve their birthrate problem. Otherwise you can keep moving them to other countries.

They are the direct opposite of the West where people who are highly educated and have a high economical status wait to long with having children. And thus end up mostly childless or with a defected child. Although scientifical aid helps, they deviate from natural birth.

The Quran always tries to create balance in a society. China goes to the other extreme by restricting childbirth, causing gender-preference. Also they do not solve the true cause of overpopulation, which is education and economics. Other countries, people wait to long, and thus the countries are struck by to low birthrates. The Quran seeks a middle.

[Angel]

In Pakistan people have massive families; in the UK people from a Pakistani origin have massive families too ~ even though they may be rich and well-educated. The reason they do that is because it?s part of our culture to have loads of children, and many British Pakistanis (even third generation, that are about my age) have not abandoned the culture of their country of origin.

There?s also the fact that some Asian families won?t stop having a child until they get a boy, and some Asian families want several boys so when they get married they will have a wide selection of sister in-laws they can choose from to look after them in their old age. So emigrating would help D.

peace
peace

[unknownuser]

Salam Arnold,

Perhaps the problem is that when one does a quick search of all the places where the r-j-l and n-s-a roots are located in the quran one tends to only re-translate those particular roots and leaves the rest of the verses improperly translated and so of course one could stop there proclaiming that it doesn't "fit."

All the words have to be properly translated in order for it to make sense.

Salam,
Arnab

[arnoldyasin]

In Pakistan people have massive families; in the UK people from a Pakistani origin have massive families too ~ even though they may be rich and well-educated. The reason they do that is because its part of our culture to have loads of children, and many British Pakistanis (even third generation, that are about my age) have not abandoned the culture of their country of origin.

Theres also the fact that some Asian families wont stop having a child until they get a boy, and some Asian families want several boys so when they get married they will have a wide selection of sister in-laws they can choose from to look after them in their old age. So emigrating would help .

This is not about education as for example being a doctor, this has to do with culteral development.

[arnoldyasin]

Salaam Arnab,

Your statement is certainly true on some occasions. This is why I also presented verses which would not have this problem. I'm always open to new ideas, so I will await your work on this subject.

[unknownuser]

Salam Arnold,

Your statement is certainly true on some occasions. This is why I also presented verses which would not have this problem. I'm always open to new ideas, so I will await your work on this subject.

Actually, I'm working on that as we speak. I'm trying to piece together the ancient texts based on all the information we know about the evolution of the semitic languages and their possible definitions. Not an easy task, I assure you. And, not one that is completed over night. However I am enjoying the spiritual journey. I'll try to share what I learn as I go. So far my current understanding of r-j-l and n-s-a have been given.

Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

Salam,

I thought I'd add the definition for the word D-R-B in Arabics the ancient semitic roots based on the pictographs

Note you may want to read this post first

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13931.msg120425#msg120425

D

The entrance of the ancient tent was covered by a curtain suspended from a horizontal pole. The picture of this letter represents the "door" of the tent.

The door hangs down over the opening of the tent.

Possible Meanings Hang, Entrance, Door, etc....

R

The picture is the head of a man which is "raised" up to look.

The head, as the top of the body is representative of anything that is at the top, head or beginning of something.

Possible Meanings Top, beginning, thoughts (inside the head), etc.

B
The ancients lived in goat hair tents which were divided into two halves, male and female sections, and divided by a wall. The above picture is a representation of the floorplan to the tent. The tent was the place where the family laid their "bed".
The function of the tent is to provide a covering for the family.

Possible Meanings house, family, home etc

So each pictograph has many different but related meanings. And when the letters are combined together you almost get a picture story.

In Hebrew the only related word I could find was d-r-b-y-n (Strong's #01861). It is usually translated as "goad."
In English goad is defined as the following

noun
Something that encourages, urges, or drives; a stimulus. I would imagine like a stick that used to drive cattle or other animals.
verb
(used with object) to prick or drive with, or as if with, a goad; prod; incite.

Hope this helps in the quest for the true definition of d-r-b.

Salam,
Arnab

[aqua]

I have written an article on verse 434 of the Qur'an, a verse which has commonly been misinterpreted to justify violence against women. I have created a website to publish this article www.quranverse434.com