Judeo-Christian Context of the Quran?
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Peace MyownDesert,
Your conclusion on Adam and Jesus is non-Quranic.
Then I guess it is a good thing I'm not a Muslim.
As for the Bible, I study Theology at the University of Amsterdam, and I know the Bible is tampered with. It has nothing to do with me being Muslim.
Interesting. I spent 2 years working on Master's level work in Theology in seminary, and I never came to that conclusion. There are manuscript differences, but to either assume that they are the result of deliberate tampering, or to assume that modern textual criticism can trump manuscript and historical evidence, is erroneous. Besides, don't you have an article on your website that incorrectly states that the King James Bible was translated from Jerome's Biblia Vulgata, among other incorrect statements about the Bible?
My problem is not with any assertions that the Bible has been tampered with. If there is evidence of deliberate tampering, fine. Let's talk about it, let's weigh the evidence in an objective manner. My problem is with the attitude of Muslims who have never bothered to understand the development of Judeo-Christian approaches to scripture and who make unfounded allegations about the validity of Christianity, and then get all bent out of shape the second anyone says anything remotely suggesting that there are any errors or manuscript differences in the Quran.
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Jesus was born in a natural way as he is listed among the Prophets in 686-88 which fathers are blessed.
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
Disagree with above assertion; explain how you infer ?ancestors, their descendants? means ALL prophets.
And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.
Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.
And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people.
From among their ancestors, their descendants, and their siblings, we chose many, and we guided them in a straight path.
Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.Jesus should be obeyed because he is the Word of God and the Messiah. The Messiah is a king. If you confess what the Quran says, that Jesus the son of Mary is in fact the Messiah, then wouldn't it be fair to say that he should be obeyed as well?
If Christians are partakers in the Abrahamic covenant through Jesus the Messiah, who is prophesied of in the Torah, then wouldn't logic state that Muslims also be able to reasonably articulate thier faith from the Torah and Injeel? Wouldn't you expect the Quran to make certain assumptions that would be made clear through previous revelation, if the same God that inspired the Torah and Injeel also inspired the Quran?
Every time I consider converting to Islam, all I have to do is look at how many Muslims treat with ignorance and contempt the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
Qur?an refers to a Gospel according to Jesus and what exists are Gospels supposedly according to John, Mark, Matthew, and Luke then you have the countless others surfacing according to Peter, Thomas, Mary, etc. so Muslims have no choice but to go by Qur?an and treat all else with a suspicious maybe, perhaps, context and exact words used unknown similarly to hadith which we can never be sure about.
Peace
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688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words ". Wa min aaba ihim" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means . And from among their fathers.
Translating it with 'ancestors' is not a literal translation, also it is funny you only presented that translation as 80% do translate it with fathers and not with forefathers or ancestors.
Yusuf Ali (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren; ..
Pickthall With some of their forefathers and their offspring, and their brethren;
Shakir And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren;
Rodwell And some of their fathers, and of their offspring, and of their brethren .
Hilali & Khan And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren,
Irving We picked out some of their forefathers, their offspring and their brethren....
Arberry And of their fathers, and of their seed, and of their brethren;....To understand more on the falsehood of the virgin birth, please read my book on the mistranslation of the Quran into 'miracles'
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0
MyownDesert, if your college never admitted that the Bible has gone through many editing-stages, where texts were changed, then they were not objective and honest. But this is a completely different discussion.
And it is true that many Muslims do not respect or understand the Christian Theology, which is wrong. I myself grew up as a Christian and have studied it deeply. I also teach Muslims at mosques about Christian History so mutual understanding is created.
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MyownDesert, if your college never admitted that the Bible has gone through many editing-stages, where texts were changed, then they were not objective and honest. But this is a completely different discussion.
And it is true that many Muslims do not respect or understand the Christian Theology, which is wrong. I myself grew up as a Christian and have studied it deeply. I also teach Muslims at mosques about Christian History so mutual understanding is created.
The only possibility of an intentional revision would be along trinitarian lines, such as the inclusion of one verse in 1 John, and some minor changes in greek tense in other places. Textual critics who argue about Hebrew source documents like "J", two Isaiahs, etc, have absolutely no manuscript evidence to support their claims. My professor for Greek and New Testament studies considered himself a textual critic, but was honest enough about it to say that it mainly looks at literary cues and changes in writing style, and draws conclusions based solely on this, sometimes not bothering to look at history at all. He, unlike many others, did manage to do a lot with manuscript evidence, handwriting styles, etc, so he had a balanced look at things. Besides, objectivity is in the eye of the beholder. Of course you are going to assert as objective those who happen to agree with you, but the truth is without actually being there and looking at the academic credentials of the seminary, you cannot offhand make such a judgment. Besides, as I said earlier, you have blatantly incorrect information on your website. I don't think you've addressed this yet. Sorry, but this doesn't give me a lot of hope that you can effectively address objectivity about the seminary I attended.
Muslim "understanding" of Christian history and theology is about as good as orientalist understandings of Islamic society. To date, I don't see a lot of mutual understanding. I'm tired of Christian texts being treated in the same context and framework as the Quran, when the belief structures, language, history, approach to inspiration, culture, etc, etc, are miles apart. Apples and oranges. Not to mention, I've never heard a Muslim who talks about corrupt biblical texts mention the "revision" of the Quran under Caliph Uthman, or the variant readings of the Quran that are found in various hadiths. Until there is integrity in the discussion, there can be no understanding.
Qur?an refers to a Gospel according to Jesus and what exists are Gospels supposedly according to John, Mark, Matthew, and Luke then you have the countless others surfacing according to Peter, Thomas, Mary, etc. so Muslims have no choice but to go by Qur?an and treat all else with a suspicious maybe, perhaps, context and exact words used unknown similarly to hadith which we can never be sure about.
Peace
There are "noncanonical" texts, but by far those that were accepted in the Bible already had almost universal endorsement as from apostolic sources. You can see how clearly this is illustrated in this chart at
http//www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml
The other gospels date pretty late compared to the others. I believe some of them serve a purpose, namely to preserve certain teachings that were considered incorrect once Nicea began to have influence and certain bishops began to use Constantine's authority to affect change with the force of law. Instead of stating these teachings outright, they couched them in narrative form because of the sensitivity of what they were writing. But this is another matter altogether, and requires citation of information and sources beyond the scope of this discussion, as well as is beyond the reading attention span of most people.
Peace.
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688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words "?. Wa min aaba ihim?" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means ?. And from among their fathers?.
Peace Arnold,
I played/coached/managed a soccer team (18 players on roster) ?And from their fathers and their brothers? guided some of them to help mark the field, put up nets, and have chosen assistant coaches and linesmen.
How do we imply from the above that ALL 18 players had fathers and brothers?
There was an extensive debate on this?
REF virgin birth, what about Cloning?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg109581#msg109581 -
Peace Joel,
In the past when I have asked Muslims in other online forums about how the Quran dialogues and "fits" with the Jewish and Christian scriptures, I basically get the answer that it doesn't, that the previous texts are so mangled and corrupted that they must be discarded in favor of the Quran. When I asked for examples, most of the ones I was given showed ignorance of or blatant disdain for Judeo-Christian hermeneutics. For a while, I simply put the Quran back on the bookshelf because most of the answers I received showed contempt for intellectual curiosity.
Just curious, which Islamic forums did you visit?
And if possible can you please link us to the threads?
Cheers.
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Peace Joel,
Just curious, which Islamic forums did you visit?
And if possible can you please link us to the threads?
Cheers.
It was a few years ago on livejournal. I no longer have an lj account, and I cannot remember the names of the communities.
I remember a Christian telling me that it was the Muslims that tampered with the bible >D, so it can fit Muhammads claim that the bible was corrupted and hence useless. >D
Whaa??? Sheesh. That's absurd. Sometimes I very much relate to what Gandhi said "I would have been a Christian, if it weren't for the Christians I knew."
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I actually found the claim pretty funny. ;D
Joel have you ever read the gospel of Judas, Thomas, Philip or any other heretical gospel?
God Bless
peaceAngel,
Yes, I have. The Nag Hammadi library is an area of great interest to me, and if push came to shove, I'd have to give myself away as a closet gnostic. Why do you ask?
Peace.
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Peace Arnold,
I played/coached/managed a soccer team (18 players on roster) And from their fathers and their brothers guided some of them to help mark the field, put up nets, and have chosen assistant coaches and linesmen.
How do we imply from the above that ALL 18 players had fathers and brothers?
There was an extensive debate on this
REF virgin birth, what about Cloning?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg109581#msg109581Salaam Nun-de-Plume,
There are far more logical explanations to the story of Mary and Jesus, to hold on to the most illogical one is irrational and goes against the scientific method the Quran prescribes. Grasping every little thing to still believe in miracles while the Arabic and the stories give room to far more logical explanations. Muslims have been totally blinded by the superstitious belief of the past. But to each its own. As for that thread, if you read it correctly, you would have seen it was between me and Tanveer mostly. Even if Mary gave a virginbirth as some reptile species do, then still it would not be a miracle, but a rare natural phenomena. People think miracles are needed so God can show His Power, seems creating the Universe is not enough, He needs to show He can break the Laws He created Himself! How irrational the human-being is.....
Please read my article on the miracle belief and the far more logical explanations
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=efe84155b706f92601563eda5afbc90b
And MyOwnDesert, thank you for the tip on the KJV, I had read over it myself. I have discussed it with Dr.Shabbir, and the claim of the Vulgate is because his own copy of KJV says it is so. We are now checking everything to understand why his copy claims the Vulgate. But this still does not take away the power of his book.
literary cues and changes in writing style
But to say it is only literaly cues and changes in writing is to naieve and to easy dismissal. I agree that not all of their claims are to be taken as truths, they are theories, but they are based on many truths. To just dismiss in this way is not scientific and not being open to the truth.
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Peace bro "Arnold",
Yous said amongst other thingsEven if Mary gave a virginbirth as some reptile species do, then still it would not be a miracle, but a rare natural phenomena. People think miracles are needed so God can show His Power, seems creating the Universe is not enough, He needs to show He can break the Laws He created Himself! How irrational the human-being is.....
JK- Bro here ive to disagree with you at least from my standpoint, even before coming closer to your viiews, i didnt necessrily think of miracles as being supernatural at all or that GOD had to vilate His laws. Please read my following article
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11020.0
So by you calling it a RARE natural phenomena that is exactly what i thought off to be a miracle/special sign from GOD which ordinary humans do not experience everyday, hence the focus on the word "RARE". So if you say that it is genetically possible, though being rare, then why not go for that explanation? GOD Bless! -
You have 2 theories
1.Easy explanation that doesn't refer to the supernatural or rare phenomena. The Universe is enough proof for God's Power and Wisdom. It's only problem is that it goes against the populair belief and approach.
2.You have the rare natural phenomena that is not proven to be possible, only plausible to some extant.
If we compate the two, from a scientifical point of view, number 1 has 70-80% more credit then number two. Why do you need more 'signs' jonny? It is so illogical. But to each its own.
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,Peace bro "arnold"
2.You have the rare natural phenomena that is not proven to be possible, only plausible to some extant.
JK- It may not be very solid as yet but weve seen some very interesting experiments and if it's possible in reptiles then although more rare it could even be possible in mammals since they are related through evolution.
If we compate the two, from a scientifical point of view, number 1 has 70-80% more credit then number two. Why do you need more 'signs' jonny? It is so illogical. But to each its own.
JK- The reason why id go for the rare phenomenom is because then the Quran would once again act as a stimulator for scientific research which it would not if we consider it to mean the laready known. Im sure some people tried this with 2130 as well but some people maintained tht it referred to the big bang phenomenom and voila it did. What i say is we have to go with the grammar and context of the Quran. The "from their fathers" argument seemed strong to me but apparently it has been disproven so now again the rare phenomenom starts catching the mind. Moreover the comparison of Jesus to Adam(FIRST evolved humans) makes more sense if they both were born in a UNIQUE way(not that they both didnt have to parents but that they both came about as a result of a mutation), since obviously Jesus came way after the first humans. GOD Bless!
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Folks! I can't understand your God, so confusing see
6101 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth How can He
have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of
all things.1672 And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and
made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you
sustenance of the best will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's
favours?-3021 And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among
yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy
between your (hearts) verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.3511 Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs
(the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And
no-one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in
a Book, Lo! that is easy for Allah.4211 (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth He has made for you pairs
from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle by this means does He multiply you
there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).788 And We created you in pairs.
5345 That He did create in pairs,- male and female.
7539 And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
5149 And of every thing We have created pairs That ye may receive instruction.
Peace all, Hamsa
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,Peace bro "arnold"
JK- It may not be very solid as yet but weve seen some very interesting experiments and if it's possible in reptiles then although more rare it could even be possible in mammals since they are related through evolution.
JK- The reason why id go for the rare phenomenom is because then the Quran would once again act as a stimulator for scientific research which it would not if we consider it to mean the laready known. Im sure some people tried this with 2130 as well but some people maintained tht it referred to the big bang phenomenom and voila it did. What i say is we have to go with the grammar and context of the Quran. The "from their fathers" argument seemed strong to me but apparently it has been disproven so now again the rare phenomenom starts catching the mind. Moreover the comparison of Jesus to Adam(FIRST evolved humans) makes more sense if they both were born in a UNIQUE way(not that they both didnt have to parents but that they both came about as a result of a mutation), since obviously Jesus came way after the first humans. GOD Bless!
Jonny, the verse talks about Adam in the present tense, Adam thus stands here for Mankind in total, and not the first humans. You hang to pieces of threads instead of the rope of Truth. The Gospel would then also stand as stimulator for truth and every other virginbirth myth. The from their fathers is disproven? And all other arguments you suddenly seem to forget. And the first humans were also all created through male and female genes, the activated genes changed only with every new generation. Please study the science better. Ah mankind is hopeless....I have made my statements in my book, what you choose to believe is up to you.
Peace
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Peace "Hamsa",
Ofcourse GOD created male and female and these traits are always present to some extent or the other. But we also have ermaphrodites carrying both male and female genitals. So you see there are these "oddities" of nature too. But reg Jesus birth what has this got to do with being male or female. Where does GOD say in the Quran that He always creates us/mammals through a paiur of male and female? If you find such a verse then ofcourse youd be right. GOD Bless! -
Peace bro "arnold",
...And the first humans were also all created through male and female genes, the activated genes changed only with every new generation. Please study the science better. Ah mankind is hopeless....I have made my statements in my book, what you choose to believe is up to you.
Peace
JK- Yes but the graduality doesnt continue infinitely therefore lastly there have to be sudden jumps which lead to radical changes int eh newborns. This is known as punctuated equillibrium where certain changes start to accumulate in the genome and suddenly a radically new form appears and this chain goes on until the final product is completely adjusted to the environment which in our case would be Adam, the first fully humans. The brain also suddenly enlarged and a scientific experiment with a mouse showed this could be achieved in a SINGLE STEP by altering the beta cad gene which allows more of the fluid to be trnaported which deveops the brain cells. And this is exactly what most likely happened witht the last transitional form when it jumped to being human through this trnansition. Maybe through some similar relatively simple genetic mutations a female mammal cld give birth to a male child without having been inseminated. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "arnold",
"Adam" referring to all humans and not just the first ones(which were blacks and Adam as you yourself claimed also means black humans) doesnt seem plausible. Then a more appropriate term would be to use the term "insaan" and that even would be followed by the term "ukhta(others)" so as to be "wa isa... mathal INSAANan UKHRA(and jesus... like the OTHER MANKIND)" but that is ofcourse not the case. GOD Bless! -
Peace "Hamsa",
Ofcourse GOD created male and female and these traits are always present to some extent or the other. But we also have ermaphrodites carrying both male and female genitals. So you see there are these "oddities" of nature too. But reg Jesus birth what has this got to do with being male or female. Where does GOD say in the Quran that He always creates us/mammals through a paiur of male and female? If you find such a verse then ofcourse youd be right. GOD Bless!6101 God cannot have a son without a consort but Maryam can have one. &. But there is another thing I have noticed in Quran that the Prayers of some prophets are given in the Quran asking forgiveness both for their parents but Jesus Pray only for his mother hmm. I'll keep searching for truth.
Peace all, Hamsa