Adultery
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Peace simple,
i just don't get you here
I think BEATING people is forbidden except in self defense.
and then
or be prepared for the eighty lashes - as I see the Ayah below.
do you consider the 80 lashes as self-defense (ok, i know u don't) or do you not consider 80 lashes as a beating (as of in the course of justice ?) ?
please explain your thought .
Salaams, lk
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Peace simple,
i just don't get you here
and then
do you consider the 80 lashes as self-defense (ok, i know u don't) or do you not consider 80 lashes as a beating (as of in the course of justice ?) ?please explain your thought .
Salaams, lk
Sorry Elke,
I was actually ridiculing the previous translation - to me there is no such thing as the 80 lashes,
peace
Salaams. -
Salaam all
Why is everyone so eager to find "evidence" that X and Y are having sex? How does this offend you or harm you, or even the society, if they are doing it in private? Leave people alone, that's God domain. And He says if you accuse them without having four witnesses you will be punished!
The only person who may get hurt is the spouse, and God has accommodated this case
And those who are happy with the DNA, even this may not work. Go and read about chimera cases.
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Salaams All,
i am just stunned at people who think sex with people you are not married to is allowed , unless witnessed by 4 people and only then can they be prosecuted - may be i have missunderstood this, i hope i have.
God Bless All.
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Salaams All,
i am just stunned at people who think sex with people you are not married to is allowed , unless witnessed by 4 people and only then can they be prosecuted - may be i have missunderstood this, i hope i have.
God Bless All.
No one said it is allowed. We say it is unpunishable without the sole evidence decided by God. Many things are not allowed, but not punishable, even with evidence. What's the punishment for not believing in God? What's the punishment for eating pork, even in public? What's the punishment for usuary (and I am talking about punishment set by God)?..etc...etc
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Peace
Why is everyone so eager to find "evidence" that X and Y are having sex?
I do not think one is supposed to be eager to accuse. It seems clear to me that accusations are a serious charge, for the husband or wife against his/her spouse, or the community against some couple. In a society upholding the system of God I think if people are found to engage in public sexual relations and are not spouses then there is a need to enforce punishment.
Joe
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Peace bro Warner,
Your reply seems reasonable but what about masochistics who commit zina ? Won't they derive pleasure from the inflicted pain ? How would the painful lashes deter them ? There seems to be a lot of them nowadays.
Also how would you define the upper limit of the force used according to al-qur'aan ? According to your theory, the mullah will always be able to kill someone with violent lashing using full force and then justify that by saying that he did not let compassion move him ! Then he would say that if he had used even a little less than full force that might be cassified as compassion.
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Peace all,
Corporal Punishment - Effectiveness
Advocates of corporal punishment argue that it is more likely than any alternative to prevent offenders from committing further criminal acts, and that it is also an exceptionally strong deterrent to potential offenders. These claims have been subjected to some empirical investigation, especially by the Cadogan Committee, whose research was continued in 1960 by the Home Office Research Unit for ACTO.
Individual deterrence. Part of the research carried out by the Cadogan Committee and ACTO covered 3,023 cases of robbery with violence (virtually the only offense for which corporal punishment was imposed) between 1921 and 1947. Offenders were divided into two groups those previously convicted of serious crimes and those not previously convicted. In both categories, offenders who were not flogged showed slightly better subsequent records. Those who were flogged seemed slightly more likely to be convicted again of robbery with violence, although the numbers were small and the differences not statistically significant (Cadogan Committee; Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders). These findings suggested that flogging was not especially effective as an individual deterrent, but they were not conclusive the groups of those flogged and not flogged were not properly matched, nor were the sentences randomly assigned, for some judges habitually made more use of the penalty than others.
General deterrence. The Cadogan Committee devoted special attention to five cases of corporal punishment used as an exemplary sentence in response to major outbreaks of crimes for which, according to public opinion, the penalty was particularly suitable. The committee found that in some cases the facts plainly contradicted such beliefs and that reductions in crime could just as plausibly be attributed to causes other than the penalties imposed on offenders. It also noted that the incidence of robbery with violence in England and Wales had declined steadily in the years before World War I notwithstanding infrequent and decreasing use of corporal punishment, whereas in the postwar years it had tended to increase despite a much greater and increasing resort to floggings. It was also shown that between 1890 and 1934 the incidence of robbery in England and Wales (where corporal punishment might have served as a deterrent) declined more slowly than in Scotland, where corporal punishment was not inflicted for those offenses (Cadogan Committee).
ACTO also compared the incidence of robbery with violence in England and Wales before and after corporal punishment was abolished as a judicial penalty in 1948. The number of robberies reported to the police increased steadily during and after World War II, although corporal punishment was employed more frequently than before the war. After 1948, however, there was a marked downward trend, and until 1957 instances of robbery remained well below the 1948 level. The causes of this reduction were unknown, but ACTO inferred that corporal punishment had not been a strong deterrent immediately before its abolition and noted that abolition was not followed by an increase in the offenses for which it had previously been imposed (Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders). In short, no evidence proved that corporal punishment provided more deterrence than imprisonment, to which it commonly served as an alternative penalty before abolition. Canadian and New Zealand studies confirmed these findings (Canada, Parliament; New Zealand Department of Justice).
Reference
http//law.jrank.org/pages/739/Corporal-Punishment-Effectiveness.html
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Peace all,
"The victim was tied to a post or on a triangle of wood and stripped, receiving the specified number of strokes on the back. A sentence of 100 or 120 lashes was equivalent to a death sentence; but few lived to receive so many. Even twenty lashes could maim; with the specially extended Great Knout twenty blows could kill.
The executioner was usually a criminal who had to pass through a probation and regular training, being let off his own penalties in return for his services. Peter the Great is traditionally accused of knouting his son Alexis to death, and there is little doubt that he was actually beaten till he died, whoever was the executioner."
Reference
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knout
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The professor explained that he carried out a study and found that grasshoppers have ears in their legs ,which he is going to prove ;
"I have trained this grasshopper to jump when I say 'jump'." The professor demonstrates this a few times.
Then the professor cuts off the grasshoppers legs.
"See. Now I say 'jump' and the grasshopper no longer responds. So it is obvious the grasshopper has ears in its legs".
siki
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Peace all,
"Even when not strictly public, humiliation can still be a psychologically "painful" aspect of punishment because of the presence of witnessing peers (such as fellow prisoners), relatives, staff or other onlookers, or simply because the tormentor witnesses how self-control is broken down. This is also true for punishments in class."
Reference
http//www.answers.com/topic/public-humiliation
Public humiliation is legitimate punishment
By Jennifer Lozano
Issue date 6/19/02 Section OpinionLong gone are the days of public stonings, hangings or heads rolling after the fateful drop of the guillotine. However, State District Judge Henry Poe is promoting his own form of publicly shameful punishment for those who choose to deviate from the laws that govern our social existence. Only Poe's punishment is more reminiscent of Nathaniel Hawthorne's shameful Scarlet Letter, in which his infamous adulterous character was forced to wear an A on her breast for the remainder of her life.According to the Houston Chronicle, as part of Poe's probation terms, he often makes probationers march a specific number of times a year wearing signs that tell the public what he or she was convicted of.
As a result of legislation that Poe helped write, he has sentenced several hundred probationers to sign carrying. Although many find the practice futile and harsh, the judge has retrieved an important element from our social punishment history that has been abandoned, and he has implemented it successfully in modern society while still maintaining a keen modern perspective on the prisoner's right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment.
The principle behind sign carrying is relatively simple. Most people do not enjoy being publicly humiliated; therefore, a criminal will feel the public scorn for the act that he or she committed. Ideally, they will more fully accept responsibility and will feel remorse. In addition, public citizens who view the fate of the fallen man may be deterred from committing the same crime.
When a person views a probationer wearing a sign stating that he or she murdered a man, they are reminded that criminals do get caught, they do go to jail and they do reap the consequences of their actions for years to come.
Also, according to the Chronicle, another reason society has turned to public shame is because of its frustration with the ineffectiveness of prisons to punish and rehabilitate. It is easy for the public to believe criminals are receiving short sentences in prisons fully equipped with televisions, weight rooms and the opportunity to refine their criminal behavior skills. The astounding number of repeat offenders who do not seem the slightest bit effected by the threat of returning to prison solidifies Americans' lack of faith in the prison system. Therefore, even though studies do not show that public shame better rehabilitates or punishes criminals than prison, it allows society to have the much-needed satisfaction in visually knowing they have adequately punished criminals. Society wants its moral attitude toward crime expressed and public shame does that, Dan Kahan, a Yale University law professor, told the Chronicle.
It cannot be expected that all criminals will have a more adequate punishment and rehabilitation as a result of Poe's shame punishment. To assume this would imply that every criminal has the same acute human emotions of guilt and humiliation as the rest of the population and, if this were the case, there would be a significantly lower number of crimes.However, it is very plausible that for some probationers, the public display of humiliation will help them take responsibility for their actions and think twice about committing a crime again. For example, the Chronicle depicts the story of Michael Hubacek, a 23 year-old who pleaded no contest to intoxicated manslaughter charges and now claims the sign carrying has helped him atone for his mistakes and help others avoid similar ones. If shame punishment has this effect on even a few individuals, it will benefit our society.
Although public shame punishment may seem digressive and cruel, it must be remembered that when an individual commits an act of criminal behavior, they are not respecting their community and therefore should expect to receive a sub-par level of respect from their community. Whether as a means of deterrence, punishment or atonement, judges should not be dissuaded to implement this practice in their probation terms and should encourage others to do the same.
Reference
http//media.www.thebatt.com/media/storage/paper657/news/2002/06/19/Opinion/Public.Humiliation.Is.Legitimate.Punishment-518040.shtml
Public shaming of prostitutes
http//www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/08/news/shenzhen.php
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Salam
Public sex is not something you do because you're sick, needy , under influence of rage or by mistake or for any other reason. Its punishment is not a deterrent for offenders, it is a primary deterrent. Why on earth would one want to have sex in public when they cannot even throw doubts on the evidence?
Maybe the severity of the punishment and the evidence that's beyond any doubt are set so that no one would even think about it.
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peace Angel
I have an ! why don't you friends take W along, when you stroll in the park next time?
siki ;D
peace siki,
I can?t W is Z?s sister, as if she?s gonna grass her own sister up! nope
I guess me X and Y need to be brave enough to allow being whipped muscle,
Lets hope those lashes are symbolic and not severe pr
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Peace "ayman",
Peace JK,
It is a fact that addicts exchanging needles is far more negligent and risky than two people who know each other having sex and using a condom. How come there is no punishment for the addict?
JK- Who said addict shouldnt be punished? Ofcourse drugs like heroin which are needled are to be banned and anyone found with them need to be ounished. This is out of qs. 2ndly you rightly added "using a condom" and i mentioned in another post that it is difficult to decide whether one can term it as adultery if a condom has been used.
It is also a fact that children can be conceived without sexual intercourse such as through sperm banks and fertility clinics. How come there is no punishment for fertility clinics and sperm donors and takers?
JK- Injecting sperm artificially without being married to the one who posesses it could well fall under the category of adultery and infact even the Mullahs, who are otherwise so illogical noted this.
On the other hand, pornography is not a private matter but is a deliberate exhibition of private matter to corrupt society. So it is punishable. We are also told not to come near pornography/"zina" this means that it is not only about not doing it but also watching it or tolerate it in any shape or form.
JK- Oh common what if the intention was to stimulate sex between married couples and only those are watching it? Its a moral issue.
No, 43 is clear even married couples can be zani and zaniyat TOGETHER. The issue is not about marriage at all. It is about whether there are four witnesses or not. Given the prohibition against spying and the sanctity of the home in the great reading, the only way you would get valid four witnesses is if the couple deliberetly had sex in public. This is pornography. The passage doesn't say "if the couple were married then the accusers are the liars according to the god".
Peace,
Ayman
JK- As i said this doesnt make any sense at all to me. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "tanveer"
Peace bro Khizar,
The pain sensing neuron endings are not just present in the skin but the muscles too. Haven't you heard of "myalgias" or "muscle aches and pains" ? The excess fat in certain parts of the female body would "pad" the muscles from the pain causing stimulus; thus in men muscle pain sensors will be stimulated more than in women in certain parts due to lashes.
JK- So if it's in certain PARTS only, one can avoid those in men.
Any scientific proof of women's skin being more delicate than men's in general ?
JK- By delicate i mean soft and tender and not rough and tough like tht of a male. This is everyday observation.
Women actually have to deal with delivery of a baby which can be one of the most painful experiences in the world, and thus have better ability to endure pain than men !
JK- And here wer back at the certain parts issue. Bro this claim of yours seems absurd. Why do you think females are so much more warned not to indulge in violent fighting sports like boxing for example? Obviously because they are much more delicate and their reproductive system is even more delicate. If anything happens to that then there could be serious problems for childbirth and for the child itself. GOD Bless!
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Peace Samia
Those women who commit Fahisha?. (415)
If two of your men guilty?????? (416)
According to the Quraan Fahisha is a broad category of evil/shameful acts including sex out side marriage even for/with unmarried people. Since the punishment in 415 is only a sort of house arrest surely this can not be same as zina.
As for men, the verse (416) says two men.
What is your opinion on this?
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Peace JonnyK
On 243,
Before the conviction a person can not be called a zani or a zania.
243 does not say the zani and the zania WERE married to each other.
When the verse says ?zani only shall marry a zania? that means after the conviction and after the punishment of caning a zani or a zania if they want to get married in the future they shall only marry such people who have been convicted for such acts earlier or those who set up partners.
This is clear from the command ?It is forbidden for the believers to marry such? (zani, zanias and mushrik)
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Peace bro Tanveer
If the Mullah break Allahs command the Mullah is answerable to Him. Mullahs are not following the most important commands so how do we expect them to follow the force of caning. Our life and our deaths are in His hands and not in Mullahs and without His authority Mullah can not do the least harm to a believer.
We can not abolish or bend Allahs command because people will misinterpret, misunderstand or misuse. The Quraan says people will do exactly that.
Research can be for or against and social statistics are subjective and mostly inconclusive. It?s the way you analyze it and interpret it. Gods law has to be carried out notwithstanding what research says and God does not command in a vacuum; it is part of a system, and a just system at that. In poverty stricken India with 1B population the prison population is about 300,000. In China it is 1.3B to 1.5M. In US and UK it is 300M to 2M and 55M to 80,000 respectively. We can sit all day analyze and argue the reasons for and against these statistics the social economic conditions in these countries and their criminal justice systems. Not that we should neglect research and statistics. We should use them for better decision making and use them for the betterment of the society but we shall not hold them above Allahs law. I am not implying you said that.
Punishment will leave marks or scars physically and possibly mentally but the scars marks and even the devastation caused by the punished to many innocent man, woman and child to families and even to a whole society should not be neglected.