Is Islamic History to Blame for Muslims 'Violent Mentality'?
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You need to learn a lot of history my lady....
Israel was created through extremist Zionist, who played a guerilla war against the British Army that occupied Palestine in the 1900's, after that, the Zionist and orthodoxe Jews focussed on the Palestine people.
We won?t told that at school. nope
We were taught that the Jews needed a safe haven after the holocaust, and the "bloodthirsty" Arabs were the only ones to stoop so low to blow themselves up for the land.
I found out about the Nazi-Zionist connection on an anti-Zionist site, but it just sounds like a horrific conspiracy, my sis who is very good at history (she got top marks at our school) thinks that the argument is baseless.
peace
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As far as I know the terrorist ring leaders which orchestrated the Bali bombing were 'brainwashed' in Afghanistan.
Jamaa Islamia was militant WAY before its contact with Al-Qaeda, its members went to fight in Afghanistan so I think we can't attribute these violent tendencies simply to 'brainwashing'.
As for violence in Sri Lanka do they associate their religion with their actions?
Heck yeah, people do this all over the world~!
http//faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/429/429lect13.htm
An important message these people are talking about is the way religion is infused into politics.
For me (and I can see also for Arnold) these misconceptions are quite troubling, but again I cannot be surprised if News Agencies all over the world portray a people and religion in such a bad way.
Also in the Phillipines, not so far away from where you are there's a devastating cycle of Christian-Muslim violence where both parties have committed the most disgusting atrocities.
In my opinion (and this is only my singular opinion so you can take it or leave it) perhaps you and Angel would benefit from a thorough read of history books, the history of religions, peoples and places and I think you will see that no one group of people are any more or less violent than any other and if people wish to be violent they can twist whatever ideology they want to suit their needs.
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Maybe I can help before this hotbed of incoming flame ignites.
Humans are violent by nature, there will always be war. There is no stopping that, no peace will stand forever. not even if the world became a united single nation with one/no religion, we would still fight. Because people will always think differently than others. Example Anywhere, no matter where you go there will be someone who has convinced themself that their way is the one and only way to true happiness and that everyone else is wrong. Thats how religious wars start.
I don't think it matters who started this first, this war everyone has been talking about had started WAY before the first crusade. so who is to say they are on the right side. If you ask me, were all wrong. Both sides of a war commit horrible crimes against each other.
Because thats what wars is, just a series of organized massacres against one other.
If you take into basics, it doesn't matter who is right, there is never a benefit to war. each day there is more dead, more orphans, more widows. People need to learn that we're still acting the same as our ancestors before us who committed all these horrible crimes that we condemn today.
LP
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peace
I'm not going to go into the nature of human beings because I don't really know the answer to that. But I do know that religion is not the sole cause of the violence in the middle east. I think people over simplify the situation when they say that it's because they're muslims, or that muslims and jews just hate each other by nature, or that humans are violent by nature.
If you look at the history of the area, and what's going on there right now, the violence understandable (not acceptable). There are many factors involved. If it was just human nature, everyone around the world would be fighting right now. If it was just religion, then every muslim and every jew in this world would be fighting each other. But they're not.
Unlike what Faithfreedomers think, Islam is not the sole cause of Islamic terrorism and the violence in the middle east, and wiping out Islam will not wipe out most of the problems that Muslims are having. -
PEace Be Upon You All
Very well said Bro Philo
Bro Jankren, this seems to be a never-ending problem for you. I hope you at least accept the fact that you have a hatred and contempt for Arabs. Because you do and it's obvious in post after post for the past year. You like to hide behind masks when you type about it but even your mask speaks volumes. I'm sorry that you have to deal with that anger in your heart. We all have our demons I guess... and that's yours. Hopefully, you'll change.
I think the first step in change is to recognize the problem. I recall us speaking about this before and you told me that you just don't like the way the Arabs are "corrupting" Indonesia spreading hatred and terrorism.
The first thing you should realize is that violence is not an "arab thing". The violence you see in Indonesia is coming from Indonesians. Their only tie to the Middle East is Islam. By that rationale, George Bush is tied to the Middle East too since Christianity started there. So I guess that isn't much of a tie.
Your argument about Islam being spread by conquest in the Middle East and that's why Arabs are angry sounds really far-fetched! I don't know one country in the world that did not conquer another or was conquered by another. So what does conquest have to do with anything? And that's IF I accept your assumption that "Arabs are violent".
I don't understand what you mean by you never knew that jihad could mean something violent. Who believes it has a violent connotation anyway? You think the Arabs do? The ones who actually use that word in their normal vocabulary on a daily basis to mean exerting effort into something? You think they misunderstood the word but the Indonesians don't? wow
I hope you can see the incredible amount of bias that is inherent in your argument and posts on this subject in general.
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I hope you can see the incredible amount of bias that is inherent in your argument and posts on this subject in general.
No one does not have bias and I realise I too am often biased toward particular issues. However, never I think that my opinion is the absolute truth. All Im doing is presenting my observation and expecting others to correct my opinion should it be mistaken. I think it is good to voice our thought even no matter how biased it is if the result is that we and myself in particular could have better understanding.
Peace,
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Peace Angel,
We won?t told that at school. nope
Don't believe everything you learn in school.
We were taught that the Jews needed a safe haven after the holocaust, and the "bloodthirsty" Arabs were the only ones to stoop so low to blow themselves up for the land.
False. Theodor Herzl, known as the "father" of Zionism (there was a mountain named after him in Jerusalem) lobbied heavily for a "return to Palestine", despite the fact that people were already living there. By any means of measurement, this is called an illegal occupation. And this was going on 50 years before WWII and the holocaust. In fact, the Brits actually offered Herzl and co. a nice piece of land in Africa which was relatively uninhabited. But, of course, they declined. So, if it was really about a "safe haven", you'd think they would have jumped at the oppurtunity. It wasn't about a safe haven at all. In fact, Zionism leaned heavily on anti-semitism in order to gain support for it's goals. Here are Mr. Herzl's words
?It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends?. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)
Peace,
Tay -
Peace to all,
Your absolutely correct Tay, the zionists are the worst antisemites there are,
however, if you were to say these truthful things as Tay has ,in the West they would lable you an anti semite,
an anti semite used to be someone that hated Jews, now an anti semite is someone that the jews hate,
Kurt
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Salaam,
I must agree partialy with Boost that I have seen Jankren say this many times that the Muslism were violent and forced Islam upon the world. Well many historians will completely disagree with you on this. Although the Secterian Islam allowed many wrong things, their moral was also very high and developed through the Quran.
For example during the crusades the Muslims did not take revenge on the crusaders and let them leave after they were defeated. The high moral Muslims showed in that era had severe impact on the crusaders and started many knighthoods that took over these values in their oathes.
Your frustration about some current makes you misjudge the past and choose to look and accept everything that justifies your frustration at the moment.
No, the current frustration of the Muslims was not because of them being conquered, this is completely illogical and nonsense. They are frustrated because of the doctrine they uphold creates contradiction in their minds and actions. They preach pre-destiny but at the same time action. They believe they can never create the peace of the first century, while the Quran says they can. They say Islam is rational but at the same time are occupied with the most amazing irrational beliefs. They are frustrated that their government fail into realizing peace. The Quran preaches peace and properity for its followers, but their clergy say this world is for the 'unbelievers'. The list goes on and on. This is the true source of the frustration under Muslims.
They trie to grab hold of Allah;s Rope, but their approach blocks them. They don't want to admit their approach is wrong, and thus try to blame the outside world, this is the easy way out. This is why our mrovement is so important, because we must teach them that the fault lies in their actions, and not in that of the West.
The West abusses the weakness of the Muslims but is not the cause of it.
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Absolutely great posts from Lost Philosopher, Pheonix1, BOOST, Tay and Ironsky enforcing that human beings are human beings are human beings, I was going to put this in my previous post but I didn?t want to come across too forward, but in light of this
No one does not have bias and I realise I too am often biased toward particular issues. However, never I think that my opinion is the absolute truth. All Im doing is presenting my observation and expecting others to correct my opinion should it be mistaken. I think it is good to voice our thought even no matter how biased it is if the result is that we and myself in particular could have better understanding.
I don?t think its correct to voice a definite opinion on EVERY issue, it would be much better to simply say that ones opinion does not hold much weight because of a lack of information on a particular subject. I myself added what I knew on the issue (new information) to the circumcision thread yesterday but stated that I hadn?t really given the subject due justice in order to say ?Circumcision is RIGHT? or ?Circumcision is WRONG? so I could not say I had an opinion. For me to say that Circumcision is WRONG when I haven?t looked into it the same way I have done other subjects would be very unjust of me, just because the majority on the thread may state it is wrong (regardless of whether they have given the subject due intellectual justice) is no green light for me begin my own dogmatic statements.
I think we all need to be very careful to approach a subject only AFTER we have read the history or looked up all the Quranic statements (if its a religious practise) so as to have at least the most basic grounding in the facts relating to the particular topic. In terms of some people here at Free Minds being shocked that the first terrorists in Palestine were Jewish then being told the history by people like Samia or Arnold, this would never have happened if the individuals simply picked up a history book, these are not hidden facts or conspiracies, these are the result of people simply reading up on the history of the subject.
It is unfortunate a lot of time is wasted by a few members of the forum having to enlighten other members who have taken it upon themselves to add their unfounded opinions to certain topics, this time would be have been much more progressive if the less informed individuals took it upon themselves to read up on the issues at hand and then offer their opinion when it holds some worth. Sometimes entire topics are started without the proper grounding in knowledge, and instead of the topic saying 'What do you think of this?' it would instead infer a incorrect statement based on misconceptions and then an unfortunate conclusion, this seems to me, the opposite of guidance.
EDIT Started making the post before I read Arnolds, so Arnold please don't think I'm leaving you out of the first sentence! lol
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Peace be upon you,
In my opinion (and this is only my singular opinion so you can take it or leave it) perhaps you and Angel would benefit from a thorough read of history books, the history of religions, peoples and places and I think you will see that no one group of people are any more or less violent than any other and if people wish to be violent they can twist whatever ideology they want to suit their needs.
Yes I would be interested. yay
So can you please recommend me some good books? handshake Coz I just don?t know where to start. confused
peace
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Of course friend,
For starters Wikipedia is something fantastic, so for the basic grounding on many issues you can simply look up on that.
In terms of Arab history my wife got me a book called 'A History of the Arab Peoples' by Albert Hourani a few years back, it was more of a token present than anything else as it mostly contained stuff I already knew but was nevertheless an informative reference because it takes a more secular approach to traditional Arabic Arab history one reads. I can image it would be ideal for those who have little prior grounding on this topic. One particular thing to note is you'll find a lot in there regarding the mentality of traditionalists especially the ideas and the mentality of Imam Shafi'i as opposed to the more rationalist thinking of people like Ibn Khaldun.
It even talks about a movement of individuals who wanted to throw everything Islamic civilization had learnt from medicine out of the window in favour of something called 'Prophetic Medicine'! These morons were literally going to build up an entire medicinal system out of what a religious prophet said and did! This is what gives me respect for the more rational of the Medieval time such as Ibn Khaldun in light of such moronic imbeciles.
If you go onto Amazon or Ebay I can image you can purchase this book, however if you don't wish to or can't do this you're sure to find just as much historical information such as Prophetic Medicine and the history of Palestine in referenced sources on the internet.
I hope this helps )
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Peace Angel
if you want a book specifically on the history of / palestine / israel there is one by ilan halevi. In french the titel is "sous israel la palestine" (under israel - palestine), dont know if it has been translated. May be in english it is "A History of the Jews ,Ancient and Modern" by Ilan Halevi. Am not sure though - can anyone confirm ?
Elke
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Salaam,
I must agree partialy with Boost that I have seen Jankren say this many times that the Muslism were violent and forced Islam upon the world. Well many historians will completely disagree with you on this. Although the Secterian Islam allowed many wrong things, their moral was also very high and developed through the Quran.
I NEVER said that Islam was spread through forced conversions. I only said in the Middle East it was INTRODUCED through conquests.
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It is not so illogical I presumed you meant this. But that is only one sentence in a long post.
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What's to blame for that 'violent mentality'?
Human mentality is a violent mentality.
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I'm saying that its human nature to fight, we would probably have some bigger problems if people didn't fight. History is just one of the causes, sometimes peace does overcome human nature. As does times where logic and reasoning overcome ignorance, but when anger and war piles up and grows it lets itself loose harming many.