5-Times Daily Prayer and Sources External to Islam
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It is interesting to have read Hoyland's book in its entirity, and I think there are a few remarks I have to make.
Keeping the issue of the Qiblah aside, it seems the only observation of a 5-time ritual prayer is done by Tu Huan (from 762AD - time of the Abbasids), and this is from the chronicle published as the T'ung Chronicle in 801AD (it is possible that editing/revision took place in it). It is also interesting that no other (especially Christian) sources speak of a 5-time/day ritual prayer, which should have been something that would stick out in Semite society. I say this beause a 5-time/daily timings are more in line with the Zoroastrian Gah.
Christian sources speak more of congregational style prayers and do not notice any specific timings which would be in-line with what I understand about ritualistic/canonized salaat that is alleged to be an Abbasid fabrication along with the Me'raaj story...
Any comments?
Following are the sources I selected as those best suiting the scenario of prayer... there is a noticeable pattern to the prayer habits along with the timeline.
Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem ~639AD
Saracens entered the holy city of Christ our Lord, Jerusalem, with the permission of God and in punishment for our negligence, which is considerable, and immediately proceeded in haste to the place which is called the Capitol. They took with them men, some by force, others by their own will, in order to clean that place and to build that cursed thing, intended for their prayer and which they call a mosque (midzgitha).Homily on the Child Saints of Babylon ~640s?
Let us not fast like the God-killing Jews, nor fast like the Saracens who are oppressors, who give themselves up to prostitution, massacre and lead into captivity the sons of men, saying "We both fast and pray."Sebeos, Bishop of the Bagratunis ~660s
Now it happened that there was a certain grandee Ishmaelite who went to worship in their private place of prayer (Aqsa??? or the Temple mount?) . He encountered three of the principal Jewish men, who had just slaughtered two pigs and taken and put them place of prayer.Arculf, a Pilgrim ~670s
In that famous place where once stood the magnificently constructed Temple, near the eastern wall, the Saracens now frequent a rectangular house of prayer which they have built in a crude manner, constructing it from raised planks and large beams over some remains of ruins. This house can, as it is said, accomodate at least 3000 people. (Adomnan, De locis sanctis 1.1.14.186 )Tu Huan ~762AD
They perform ritual prayers five times a day. -
Oh my bad. I meant bro maxq D.
oh in that case D
My point was that the further we move in the timeline, the more emphasis is on "prayer" to the point that by the mid 700s, an outsider like Tu Huan notes a distinct "5-times a day" prayer... before this, any account I have seen does not talk of significant "religious" activities other than festivals and congregation, i.e, there is no mention of a prayer held at specific times daily. This kind of "ritual salat" would have been highly distinct and out-of-ordniray in a semite society, yet none of the Christian narrations observe this. Why?
Despite disagreement with many on this forum, I feel there was no ritual associated with a prayer in the early part of the Islamic era, when exalted prophets teachings were first absorbed by the "Saracens", and it may not have been held at specific times.
The pattern (seemingly) is that it started off with festivals in the early-to-mid 600s, started to morph into a frequent activity by late 600s, and finally into a ritual of daily prayer by mid 700s...
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So pretty much what you are trying to say is that the 5X ritual prayer was indeed invented during the Shiite Abbasid Dynasty under the influence of Zoroastrianism?
I already wrote a paper on ritual prayer that was way before I stumbled on these references... but yes it does seem to point to something unless someone has such non-muslim references that mention a daily ritual prayer offered multiple times at various timings as early as, let's say, the 630s.
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No kidding I need more proof... that is why I posted this thread to see if anyone else had input. Here's the paper I wrote on the "namaaz" a while back, although it is more subjective
http//maxq-reflection.blogspot.com/2006/11/burraq-meraaj-and-5-time-daily-prayer.html
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Salam.
Even if the ritual prayer is invented. It's nothing wrong if we practice it because it is a good way to be in constant remembrance of God. My understanding is from this verse.
5727 Then We sent in their tracks Our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and We gave him the Injeel, and We ordained in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented Monasticism which We never decreed for them. They wanted to please God, but they did not observe it the way it should have been observed. Consequently, We gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.
But I have replace the At-Tahiyya with 2255 or 2285-2286 so that only God alone is mention during prayer.
Anyone here agree with my understanding??
Thanks.
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Salam.
Even if the ritual prayer is invented. It's nothing wrong if we practice it because it is a good way to be in constant remembrance of God. My understanding is from this verse.
Noone says it is wrong bro. Even if it is proven that the Zoroastrian way of ritual prayers were invented by the Shiite Abbasids I would still uphold the daily prayers because Im used to do them.
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Noone says it is wrong bro. Even if it is proven that the Zoroastrian way of ritual prayers were invented by the Shiite Abbasids I would still uphold the daily prayers because Im used to do them.
I think you wanted to say that "Zoroastrian ways of ritual prayers were incorporated into the Islamic lifestyle by the Abbasids"...
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I think you wanted to say that "Zoroastrian ways of ritual prayers were incorporated into the Islamic lifestyle by the Abbasids"...
Mmm pretty much yeah. In my post I presumed that everyone knew that the current Islamic ritual prayer is similar to Zoroastrian way of prayer.
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bump
The above notes should be read in conjunction with this book, which seems to support no formalisation of ritual prayer till later. The book is based on early traditional sources so it would seem they imply this too. It is interesting considering nearly every religious cleric keeps going on about we should do things like prophet Muhammad did or his early followers/companions did, yet they dont even though its in their own recorded history.
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bump
The above notes should be read in conjunction with this book, which seems to support no formalisation of ritual prayer till later. The book is based on early traditional sources so it would seem they imply this too. It is interesting considering nearly every religious cleric keeps going on about we should do things like prophet Muhammad did or his early followers/companions did, yet they dont even though its in their own recorded history.
Selam Wakas
At $136 its a little out of my budget. Is it available as a PDF?
Peace
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salam alaykum,
3621 "Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided.
Abraham Original Source of the Contact Prayers
The Quran teaches us in may suras that Submission (in Arabic "Islam" is the religion of Abraham (please consult 2135, 395, 4125, 6161 and 227. Muhammad was a follower of Abraham, as we learn from 16123. All religious practices in Submission (Islam) were given to us through Abraham; they include1.the five daily Contact Prayers (Salat),
2.the obligatory charity (Zakat),
3.the fasting during Ramadan, and
4.the Hajj Pilgrimage to Mecca.
Specifically, we learn from the Quran (2173) that the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) were given to Abraham.Numerous verses throughout the Quran inform us that the Contact Prayers were in existence, intact, and practiced before the advent of Muhammad (see for example 835 & 954).
All positions of the Contact Prayers are found in the Quran, including the standing position (339, 399), the bowing and prostrating positions (Rukoo' and Sujood) (243, 343, 9112, 2226 & 77).
The Five Times Are Specified in the Quran
1.The Dawn Prayer is mentioned by name in 2458. Before sunrise.
2.The Noon Prayer is specified in 1778. When the sun declines.
3.The Afternoon Prayer is in 2238. Midway between noon and sunset.
4.The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11114. Immediately after sunset.
5.The Night Prayer is in 11114, and is mentioned by name in 2458.006038
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URL All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.
006114
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URL Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.There is no compulsion in the system, so if you feel the need to seek out other books of conjectrure in order to find waht you wish feel free. However, keep this verse in mind
077050
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URL Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?006116
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URL If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
010036
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URL Most of them follow nothing but conjecture, and conjecture is no substitute for the truth. GOD is fully aware of everything they do.034053
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URL They have rejected it in the past; they have decided instead to uphold conjecture and guesswork. -
peace hope4,
Not that I am aware of. If you're in the UK, you can get it for ~$100/?66. I haven't read all of it yet, some of it does not interest me but there may be useful bits of info in other articles too. If I come across some interesting info I will post it. I recommend reading some of the content on amazon.
As a side note, I was considering starting a UK book club (i.e. exchange) for free-minds members, but I'm too busy with other islam/quran projects at the moment, perhaps in the future. I have quite a lot of books.
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As a side note, I was considering starting a UK book club (i.e. exchange) for free-minds members, but I'm too busy with other islam/quran projects at the moment, perhaps in the future. I have quite a lot of books.
... scan scan scan scan ...
... OCR OCR OCR OCR ...
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;D -
As a side note, I was considering starting a UK book club (i.e. exchange) for free-minds members, but I'm too busy with other islam/quran projects at the moment, perhaps in the future. I have quite a lot of books.
Selam Wakas
I think that would be a great idea. What also would be a good idea is to set up a study centre. But we would need a grant of some sort for that.
Peace
