GIVE ME A BREAK!
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peace Kurt,
No, being FOR God is not wrong necessarily. However, it can compromise your judgement. A perfect example of this is the religious extremists (Christian/Muslim/other) who are so convinced God is on their side they commit injust acts upon others with no consideration.
'al quran' itself requests the reader to challenge it, ponder it, scrutinise it, research out with it, even disprove it etc. What does this tell you about the relationship God wants you to have with Him?Even many good & bad deeds require for you to ponder and consider the best approach. If you mix emotion with trying to do the right thing, your judgement is more likely to be compromised.
Dont get me wrong, at times, emotion can be a good thing, but not when trying to consider and weigh up evidence.
"No, being FOR God is not wrong necessarily. " Necessarily??? ??? brickwall Wakas, ....I don't know what to say to you, sometimes you render me speechless. God only asks those who disbelieve, who doubt, who are hipocrits to challenge, dispute the Quran. You are absoultely out of line in saying the opposite. You may sound so calm, but your own emmotion is what is causing you to blindly say the wrong things as well. Where is the relevance in your rebuttal to Brother IronSky's comment? You are taking how he believes in God, and is all for God, and making it emmotional, and telling him, he can challenge and even try to dispute the Quran and God gives him permission??? ONLY TO A NON Believer, to do anything otherwise as a believer, would be to transgress,and focus on negative and senseless,wasteless time, rather than believe, accept, sumbit to the truth.
!!! Sheesh!
Peace be with you Wakas, I think you and I have some very different view points.
Honor
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Salaam Honor
Salam johnny_k
First of all you completely took that ayat out of text.This ayat if you read the entire surah, and ayats before and after, is referring to people who during the time of the prophet Muhammad, took the name of Islam, so as to be like a trend, to be a follower for the sake of just pleasing others, but with no real belief or understanding why they should believe what they do, so that is what this is talking about. NOT as some example so as not to call our religion something other than Islam.
Honor
Islam is Islam sister , just like a Rose is Rose , others may call It Magnolia or Poison Ivy but cannot changed the Subtance . So in many ways these people are trying to deceive themselves . As for Pleasing Others , they are called " Mental Shirk " , to which I am asking them to Emancipate themselves from . Perhaps you should start calling them by the meaning of their owns names in whatever language and see if they still Recognize Themselves ? peace
Cheers
p.s. Proper name has meanings , so it can be translated in the 21st century ( The age of Internet yay )
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peace,
i disagree wakas, and progod, you should change your name according to wakas logic, your name sounds to biased in favor of God
Interesting extrapolation, but the logic of mine you refer to does not address names, only thinking. If progod was indeed biased towards God to the extent of following blindly, then this would be problematic (for him mainly). Signs/ayats such as 1736 clearly demonstrate God does not want blind following.
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Honor, I do not understand the sequence in your illustration, so I inserted brackets within it to clarify
Them (Arabs) saying they are (believers), means they are telling a falseness, for god knows that no faith has entered their hearts yet, but god telling them they became (muslim), is because it will take faith to enter their hearts to become muslims,and that can take time.
Let me know if the above is correct.
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peace honor,
"No, being FOR God is not wrong necessarily. " Necessarily??? Huh?
Does this mean you disagree with the example I gave of the extremist Christians/Muslims/other? i.e. them being FOR God does not compromise their judgement?
God only asks those who disbelieve, who doubt, who are hipocrits to challenge, dispute the Quran.
Since you like to study surrounding context of verses, can you tell us whom 1736 is directed to? Are you saying it is hypocrites/disbelievers? Please clarify and ideally bring supporting evidence.
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peace honor,
Does this mean you disagree with the example I gave of the extremist Christians/Muslims/other? i.e. them being FOR God does not compromise their judgement?
Since you like to study surrounding context of verses, can you tell us whom 1736 is directed to? Are you saying it is hypocrites/disbelievers? Please clarify and ideally bring supporting evidence.
Wakas,
First my let me state, I will not answer a question regarding a statement you made, that was in refuttal to Ironsky,.. that was completely irrelevant. While you may find your example of Christians or Jews or whatever being extreme as some sort of relevancy, I believe you are out of context, and took a simple statement of faith on behalf of IronSky and changed it in to determining whether someone really is a believer or an extremist, and how that comprimies their judgement. This is not a topic that I am discussing at this point.
Also, You can challenge me all you want, I am not so arrogant as to always try and disprove you. I will rise to the challenge, but I will not always, I am not here to prove anything to you. And I don't want to waste my time doing so, all the time. I will get back with you on this challenge in due time.
Honor
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Peace,
Ironsky and others you can disagree with the knowledge I put to you or not. I just put forth pure knowledge from Classical Arabic. You can disagree with that if you chose but that is on you. Furthermore, I am for God, but I first anaylized who and what God is before i decided to commit my faithfulness to Him. I am for him all the way, but we know from the Quran that &aql or intelligence and tafkeer (thinking) and hukm(deciding) are our most important assets. Emotion can get in the way of that especially when we have vested interests in titles and names and not the ideas that these names mean. In this case we have people who pledge themselves to a title and he civilization and people it represents despite it being the wrong term for the message that God gave us. What we have here, unfortunately are people who can't see the forest from the trees and who are not willing to follow logic and God (despite the names) at all costs.
Wakas is right that emotion can cloud judgement, and skepticism when it is an emotion (mistrust) can also cloud judgement, but critique and analyzing is not scepticism. You definitely have to let go of your emotional attachment to tell the truth. Then once you've seen the fleeting reality of these words and how they are not so connect to God but to this world then you will see you're error and hopefully you can fill your heart not with faith in Islam but with faith that involves submitting and making peace with God.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace sis "honor",
Salam johnny_k
First of all you completely took that ayat out of text.This ayat if you read the entire surah, and ayats before and after, is referring to people who during the time of the prophet Muhammad, took the name of Islam, so as to be like a trend, to be a follower for the sake of just pleasing others, but with no real belief or understanding why they should believe what they do, so that is what this is talking about. NOT as some example so as not to call our religion something other than Islam.
Honor
JK- This is the first time somebody has told me tht i took some verse out of context in the Quran. Shows me tht ur actually doing your best to analyse the Quran. Respect. ). BUT i also have my reasons as to why i believe my quote was relevant. As "progod" also mentioned the term "ism" can mean to charactesize and we can see tht when GOD talks about His names, He means His attributes which we do not need to recite in Arabic. Moreover do you claim tht Abraham used the Arabic term "Muslim" whilst tht term as such was nonexistent in his time? Neither this verse nor any others could possibly imply tht the terms "muslim" or "islam" are proper names. Our way of life should not be termed in any particular language. The reaons as to why the Quran was revealed in Arabic could be many eg Arabic has a rich grammar which makes it more easy to determine whther the reference is male or female even by using mere verbs. But claiming tht it was revealed in Arabic so we do not translate specific terms like "islam" or "muslim" doesnt seem to make any sense. GOD Bless!
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Salaam Jk
I concur with you Johnny that you did not take the Verse outa context , however , you did Take out two Verses from The Quran i.e. 9128-129 . Any chance of you Re-Instating them ?
Peace
JK- If GOD showed me though the code-19 pattern, which i can accept with high probability, that these two verses aint part of His Book then it would be foolish for me to believe otherwise. I go with what i observe to be true NOT what people tell me to beleive is true without evidence and this is crucial to me. GOD Bless!
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Salaam JK
Since you are good at maths , could you tell me which Word in the Quran which is The Middle / Center of It ( Quran ) please ? Your Version and 9128-129 inclusive please ? My 12 year old boy has been asking me about this and I promised him that I'll find out from the Brothers and Sisters in the Forum for him .
Thanks a Million JK
Cheers
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Peace Samia,
Let me correct you
rather it should beQuote
The bedouins/the people of the forest/desert/wilderness/the Arabs have said "We have faith/We will be faithful." Say "You do not have faith. You should rather say We have been submissive/We will be submissive. Faith/faithfulness has not entered your hearts yet, but if you obey God and/meaning his messenger nothing you do will be belittled in any way. . ."The difference in the translations was to point out where MUSLIM should have been SUBMISSIVE.
If anyone has questions about the different tenses the perfert tense in Arabic can mean future, past or conditional.
Godbless,
AnwarThanks Anwar. But I deliberately did not translate it for those who believe islam and all derivatives, necessarily, should not be translated. Look at honor's comment below your message. However, I missed part of the verse "you do not have faith", sorry.
You also say that the perfect tense can mean future, past or conditional. I do not know of that, except with some tools, like in if we go tomorrow, "go" will be in the perfect tense in the arabic sentense, but that's only possible with the presence of "if". Can you give examples of a perfect tense meaning future without the need of the presence of another word or at least a specific context (such as God is forgiving, merciful, again "is" is in the perfect tense in the arabic text) ?
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First my let me state, I will not answer a question regarding a statement you made, that was in refuttal to Ironsky,.. that was completely irrelevant. While you may find your example of Christians or Jews or whatever being extreme as some sort of relevancy, I believe you are out of context, and took a simple statement of faith on behalf of IronSky and changed it in to determining whether someone really is a believer or an extremist, and how that comprimies their judgement. This is not a topic that I am discussing at this point.
Here is the relevance... IronSky clearly implied that being FOR God would not stop one thinking clearly AND he asked if this was wrong. I simply pointed out it was not wrong necessarily and gave an example in which it could be. He never commented on it directly. This is usually a sign of admission.
Also, You can challenge me all you want, I am not so arrogant as to always try and disprove you. I will rise to the challenge, but I will not always, I am not here to prove anything to you. And I don't want to waste my time doing so, all the time.
Thanks for stating you cannot (or rather, will not) answer some of the questions put to you. Forum members can clearly read this thread and see which members answered questions put to them and who did not, who brought supporting evidence and who did not etc.
I will get back with you on this challenge in due time.
I look forward to your reply in "due time".
So wakas you gave an example of extremists being clouded in their judgement, what about extreme scepticism, it seems to be clouding yours.
So you admit these extremists were clouded in judgement, ergo, an example of being FOR God clouding judgement.
Lastly, like progod said, there is a difference between "skepticism" and "analyzing". Lets stick to evidenced comments and not what "seems" to be the case.
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Peace honor,
yes you are right - in your set of thinking. Other people have a different approach and they too are right. It all depends the definition you start from.
IMO the message inspired by god (or would you prefer allah) is for humankind. It teaches a certain kind of behavior to be adopted so that we can strive for peace in this lowly life. The people that take the word in their original meaning might be closer to the truth than those that try to follow what man made of it.
Sorry if i shock you, but islam ; even though i still call it islam (as i'm used to it), is for me a state of mind more than an organized religion. Actually, what people usually call islam is not something i believe in. I still use the words though, because i hope that i can make people understand what islam could be...
But why is the choice of words so important to you? Others have a different approach and chose to translate, they too have their good reasons, and i do not think it is because they are ashamed of or afraid to say what they believe in.elke
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But why is the choice of words so important to you? Others have a different approach and chose to translate, they too have their good reasons, and i do not think it is because they are ashamed of or afraid to say what they believe in.
Exactly, Elke, I don't mind people calling themselves Muslims and criticizing my views, but I don't like it when people assume others' intentions ("they're just following their lowly desires...they're ashamed...they care more about what people think than following God..etc).
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Exactly, Elke, I don't mind people calling themselves Muslims and criticizing my views, but I don't like it when people assume others' intentions ("they're just following their lowly desires...they're ashamed...they care more about what people think than following God..etc).
I believe this all was started with the post regarding the divisive nature of the word "Muslim", how it makes other people uncomfortable, as one of the reasons. I agree, the meaning associated, the substance of it, of the nature of the individual is far more important than what words he/she associates with, I know people who attest that they're Muslims, follow Islam, but from my understanding of Islam, they seem to have transgressed.
Just because you can call yourselves to be followers of whatever names you feel necessary does not mean that you should do it. Reasons for these actions must be justified, in my humble view, changing names, terms because of their perceived divisive nature, or in light of the reactions of others, is not a valid argument to do so. It is merely sugar coating words, trying to please others, conforming to their prejudices of the words.
Is there a real need to in the first place? Just because some words are of Arab origin aren't being translated, Islam, Quran, Muslim doesn't mean we should? There is unity in concept by sticking to these crucial words in Arabic. The estimated 1 Billion people who call themselves Muslims, they all understand that Allah means God, Tuhan, Boze, Got, Dieu, whatever it is in their respective languages but for these people there is also a kind of kinship, a brotherhood for all of them, as they all understand Allah, Muslim, Quran. It is a beautiful thing.
Because some people find a divisive nature of these words, suiting the prejudice of these words, would it not be better to challenge prejudicial preconceived notions of Islam, Muslims, the Quran by presenting our Quranist understanding of it. Using these very same words but without some of the perversions that is already being perpetuated in its name by the mainstream traditional Muslim beliefs and interpretations? We can show the world the misgivings of the Hadith, we can show them what Islam and the Quran is really about. Can we really do so if some of us have a such aversions identifying with these names? Choosing not to call themselves Muslims and their religion Islam, the book the Quran.
We read the same Quran as the Sunnis, Shias, Sufis read, would they identify with our understanding of this Holy book if we can't bear to use the same name as them? Preferring to call it, the great reading or what have you, even avoiding the word Muslims since this is just "too" divisive.
Hey, this is just me.
Rumi
