Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
-
Dear Warner and Samia.
let me try and explain one more time The Mohsinnats in 4-24
4-22, bans nikah with the women who were previously married to one's father,
4-23, bans any sexual contant with 13 kind of women with the word hurmat
both verses conclude the issue by saying , except what is preceded.
and now 4-24
"AND MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU MUTTALLY AGREE WITH"
consider either of the two possibilities listed below
- After listing the prohibited , God starts discussing the rest of the women by saying
"And the MOhsinnats" except MMa
God decrees a law , that for the rest, you must seek them in a proper contract/relationship before sexual contact(The MMA stay as an exception to this universal law)
Now if you still insist upon connecting 4-24 with 4-23 and continue to link the banning, with Mohsinnats in 4-24
consider the following option
- 4-22 bans wives of your fathers,
4-23 bans sexual contact with 11, unconditionally and bans 2 more under certain conditions
(a)collection of two sisters,
(b) gone in a women, the daughter banned for ever, married or you had
sexual contact with the women short of penetration, you may change your
mind , divorce the mother, and marry the daughter.4-24 continues the ban for the rest of women , and allows sexual contact with them only under a condition, a law decreed by God(God's book is over you), which is
seek them with your money in proper contract , before sexual contact
Not for fornication.And MMA stay as an exception to this rule
peace
siki
-
Mohsinaats of al Nissa
All halal good/chaste/righteous women(minus the prohibited 14 as in 4-22, 23 . and known fahishas or zanis, and of course not an ailien Female because she has to be from Nissa )
Mohsinnat al mominat (halal)
The Red,, but sub categorised to believing
mohsinnat minal zin o auu-to -ul kitab(Halal)
The Red,, but sub categorised to the women who are followers of the previous scriptures.
Mohsinnat al mushriQat (Haram for marriage only)
The Red ,, but sub categorised to Mushriqs.(Allowed for marriage, only in a situation for a believer, if she/he is a Zani, 24-3)
MME might consist of the following women
Mohsinnat al mominat, mohsinnat of the believing category, mohsinnat of the mushriqat, and the prohibited 14 as described in 4-22 and4-23, who will not be Mohsinnats.
we would call any maiden belonging to all the above categories as a fatayat,
Ones own young daughter/sister/in law (etc) would be fatayats but not mohsinnats
some body out of prohibited 14 might make it into your MME, who can not be categorised as Mohsinnats,
According to my knowledge, All the verses which talk of mohsinnats , go in line with the above mentioned explanations. Any contradiction or problem in understanding, please point out , i shall be most willing to discuss.
peace
siki
-
Dear all
After reposting my understanding above, it seems, no body has any objections,
To further boost the confidence, i shall take up every verse containing the word , MOHSINNAT" and elaborate on its meaning in the context of the verse , and analyse, weather it makes sense. I shall keep my analysis limited to the relevent words of MOHSINNAT"
To start with 4-24
And the MOHsinnat ul nisa" except MME,.....
After prohibiting certain women , now God wants to discuss the rest, but uses the word MOHSinnat for them instead of NISSA, why ? because he wants to recommend the righteous/chaste women for the bond , NOt every women.
So he says MOHSinnat out of NISSA, the chaste women out of the women
now remember , God is recommending every chaste women (minus prohibited 14) for a bond , under a condition , which ensures the payment of their ujoors before one could derive sexual enjoyment.Mohsinnats of MME stay as and exception to this rule, meaning you may derive sexual benefit from your MME without a regularised bond and payment of ujoors.
This ayah clears all the doubts if any, about MME being MOHSinnats as well, had they not been mohsinnats , there was no need to state , except MME as they could also be mohsinnats , so the mohsinnats belonging to MME category are being excluded from the "ujoors" pre condition.
I shall continue with my analysis of relevent ayahs in further posts.
peace
siki
-
Dear ALL
to continue with the analysis , i shall discuss 4-25'
4-25 , if you can not afford to marry a believing mohsinnat , then from MME a fatayat of believing category, nikah them with the permission of their masters,,,,
if due to any reason one is unable to marry a believing mohsinnat , then God is prescribing the next best option, and that is , marry a Mohsinnat who is a maiden and believing out of MME.
and she is to be a maiden , not a widow or divorcee from MME category of MOhsinnats.
After she is bonded ( a mean has been provided with the help of which she can stay chaste/righteous) and even then if , she commits Fahisha , punishment for this sub category of mohsinnats would be half , of what is prescribed for a regular MOHSINNA.
i shall continue
peace
siki
-
And now 21-91 and 66-12 which are in reference to Mary.
God uses the words AHSANATI FARJAHA in both the verses, if we take ahsanati in the same meaning which is Chastity then it makes sense , God does not call her only a Mohsinna here ( she was more than a MOHSINNA) , because He wants to convey slightly different meanings.
when we call some one as chaste, we mean that he/she does not use his/her sexual organs, except the legal way.
The case of Mary is described differently here, and the word ahsanti is combined with farjaha (sexual organs) giving precise meaning of Chastity of sexual organs , or virginity, meaning that her sexual organs were not used at all.
Precise use of AHSANATI FARJAHA in both the verses should clear all doubts regarding Marry being married.
will continue
peacesiki
-
5-5.. Further declares the "MOHSinnats" of the believing category and the mohsinnats of the followers of previous scriptures "as HALLAL " provided , the sexual benefit is derived in some kind of bond which entails paying of their UJOORs . (wages) The desire to maintain Chastity being the prime criteria , not as license/legalized cover for satisfying uncontrolled sexuality.
To be continued
peace
siki
-
24-4.. those who launch a charge against MohSINNATS and then fail to produce four,,,
This verse uses the word MOHsinnat , The general word Mohsinnat ONLY
Meaning that anyone who accuse a chaste women , Any chaste women , she could be just any women . Married, unmarried ,young maiden, widow , divorcee , believing or mushriq,, doesn't matter , (known fahisha or Zanis are being excluded under this clause)
Because remember, God could have used the word NISSA here , but he did not
makes sense , isn't it? i shall continue.
peacesiki
-
24-23
Those who falsely accuse mohsinnat tul Ghafilat ul mominat,,,,,,
The verse , precisely focuses on false accusation of a certain kind of women , who are MOHSINNATs ( chaste) believers, but are Ghafilats
Ghafilats are the ones who are careless, so the exact sense of the verse is
The women who are believers ,( meaning that they believe in God's rules and are aware of the lines drawn regarding Chastity), and are chaste women , but are Ghafilats, ( meaning careless).
Any chaste believing women, who has a careless attitude , chances are, could end up doing some action which might mislead people, and hence provide an opportunity for false accusation.God is stressing upon us to be very carefull in such cases, and warning us of dire consequences here , and the hereafter for such unfounded accusations against a believing chaste but careless women.(off course worldly punishment as in 24-4 stays valid along with this extra condemnation by God in this particular case)
(Aysha's false accusation could be an appropriate example)
peace
siki
-
Peace Siki
What is the difference between the Al Mohsnati in 243 and 425.
24-3,,, zanis and zanias should nikah only a zani , zania or Mushriq/Mushriqa and this is prohibited for the believers.
A chaste believer can not marry a mushriqa
He (the believer) is forced to marry a mushriqa or a zania in case he (the believer) himself is a Zani
something very important here, God ommits his recommendation (of chaste women) and does not stress upon the Mushriqa being a MOhsinna (chaste)
God does not use the word MOhsinnat al mushriqat, because that would have stressed upon bonding a Mohsinna (chaste) non believer, to a proven zani (unchaste) ,and this would be unfair.
peace
siki
-
Peace Siki
There is no forced marriage mentioned in the verse.
ya! i agree, i guess i chose an inappropriate word to describe God's intentions
24-3 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden
From my understanding of the Quran Muhsinat al Mushrikat is an oxymoron.According to my opinion such a concept can not exist.
I agree there is no term Mohsinnat al Mushriqat mentioned in Quran , but it does not mean that they don't exist, 4-24 (Mohsinnat al Nissa) indirectly proves their existence, but are prohibited for Nikah "only" (as per 24-3 ) "Mohsinnats" simply means, chaste women excluding prohibited 14,
Brother warner! yes Good that you brought it up. A person of your intellect was bound to come up with a valid criticism on a loose end. . This endorses my opinion about your keen and rational judgement on critical issues.
Because , !
There is an other important, but complicated issue here which i would like to discuss with you, and other forum members when i am finished sorting out the Term "Mohsinnat", the very reason that i started this thread .
peace
siki
-
To continue with my analysis,,,
There are three more occurrences of the ROOT HSN, 59,2 59.14 AND 24-33, "Qaria al hassana", "Hassonahum", and "Tahsoonna"
59,14 talks of the building which protects,from enemy attacks, and is called Fortress,
59,2 again refers to the buildings and other arrangements , which one makes to protect himself and hence could be called Fortresses.
24-33 The word Tahsoona is used in contrast with Bigha ,
"Bigha" is prostitution and is contrast to Chastity, The verse advises , Not to force the Maidens in to BIgha if they desire to be chaste.peace
siki
-
Peace Siki
Also in 2180.
A believer can not marry a Mushrikat anyway.
ya . 21-80 uses the word " sanna tul labboosee" which is the body armour for protection during a fight.
Warner!
Can you elobrate on "Anyway" ?
Waiting for further comments , or rebuttals ?
Anybody?
peace
siki
-
looks as if no one has any more objections to my understanding , so to conclude,
The root word HSN has the basic meaning as ," To protect , to lock , to save, to shield " etc, and people who went on the "PROTECTED PATH ", were not all that wrong , but the language of quran meant to convey a certain understanding through its usage.
when we use the word protected , for a women in contrast to lewdness , or Mussafa , it means the women is desirous of protecting herself from committing Fahisha, or we can say she guards herself from out pouring her sexuality in an illegal way, and we have a name for such women, CHASTE WOMEN, OR MOHSINNATS OUT OF NISSA.
The same women , when enter into a bond /nikah /Ahsinna , it means now they are protected , or we can say that these women who protect /want to protect themselves from committing fahishas have another mean or shield , which would further aid them in maintaining Chastity.The building which protects , we name it as "Fortress" , and the same root word when used in connection to dress , we have a name for it again, "BODY ARMOUR"
"Ahsanati Farjaha" means protected sexual organs , which conveys the meaning of "virginity"
Now, if we have no more objections, I ask the concerned forum members to get rid of their faulty understandings , like self protected , engaged self protected , married protected , parent protected etc, but if they still have difficulty comprehending this improved understanding , i will be more than willing to debate and clarify ,as i would like to move on, and untill and unless we correct an important basic , we cannot reslove more complicated issues.
Also, i would request brother Layth to improve upon the translation of relevent verses in the light of this discussion , if he feels appropriate.
peace
siki
-
Peace Siki
I stand by my explanation.
The meaning of the words been agreed longtime back. The issue was use in the Quraan. I mean every use of HShN.
An objection not being raised does not make you right. If you read through the thread many objections are raised against your theory. Personally I am tired of objecting on this topic since I made my point.
If you are planning to get married I can give you an advice though. Marry an honorable woman.
-
peace warner
Have i been so illogical and stupid , that No One wants to engage in a rational discussion with me anymore ?
Am i calling "Qaria al hasna" (Fortress ), A chaste/honorable building?
Did i define "sanna tul laboose" as the "Steel Chastity belt" which some folks made their women use, to prevent them from comitting fornication ?
what does an honorable women cares about the most ? what is the single, most important attribute of your honorable women without which she does not deserve this title ?
When i married , i looked for a woman , who could assure , that she does not need that " lockable steel chastity belt" when i am away.Could you tell me, your one line definnition of word "MOhsinnats" which conveys one consistent meaning ,without contradiction in all the relevent verses of Quran , once again please?
peace
siki
-
Peace Siki
Following is my analysis of Mohsanat from an earlier thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php topic=12172.msg91855;topicseen#msg91855
Peace All
The word MohSanat/MuhSinin occurs few times in the Quraan (I have listed the verses below) with regard to laws relating to women. This word is used in important law issues related to marriage, slandering and adultery also related punishments. Almost all translators translated this word as chaste, virtuous, free, independent, married etc. The problem is if you use any of these meanings in all verses there were many contradictions. You have to just read through the thread A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23 to see the amount of confusion these 2 words were causing.
I try to determine below the meaning of this word without contradicting any verse . And most importantly you will notice the simple and intelligent way the Quraan uses this word to communicate its message.
AhSanat Mary is described as AhSanat in 2191 and 6612 to mean committed/dedicated to the temple or Gods service. Mary?s mother committed/devoted her child to the temple in 335 (Muharrar ~ freed from all worldly affairs and specially dedicated to Allah's service). If we take ?protected? as a meaning for AhSanat then it will mean protected by the temple in this context.
2191 Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin
6612 Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin
Mohsanat/Muhsanat means committed or devoted to something or someone. In the following verses it means committed through marriage. And if we use protected, MohSanat should mean protected by (the oath of) marriage.
4 24
Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).
Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.
In this verse minan nisa is used to convey no married woman is allowed either believing or from the people of the book.
4 25
Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).
If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
5 5
Al yauma uhilla lakumut tayyiba_t(u), wa ta'a_mul lazina u_tul kita_ba hillul lakum, wa ta'a_mukum hillul lahum, wal muhsana_tu minal mu'mina_ti wal muhsana_tu minal lazina a_tul kita_ba min qablikum iza_a a_taitumuhunna uju_rahunna muhsinina gaira musa_fihina wa la_ muttakhizi akhda_n(in), wa may yakfur bil ima_ni fa qad habita 'amaluh(u_), wa huwa fil a _khirati minal kha_sirin(a).This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful to you are believing women committed (to you) and women committed (to you) among the people of the book revealed before your time when ye give them their due dowers and desiring commitment not lewdness nor secret intrigues. If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
In this verse the women referred to (believing and from the people of the book) are lawful to you only after you have married them. Look at the preceding words in all verses .Example ...Lawful to you are....
24 4
Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_ti sum ma lam yatu_ bi arba'ati suhada_ a faj lidu_hum sama_nina jaldataw wa la_ taqbalu_ lahum saha_datan abada_ wa ula_ ika humul fa_siqu_n
And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors
24 23
In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim
Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty
Warner!
please confirm, is this the explanation that you stand by?
siki