adam/angels
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I read this on another forum... thought id bring it over see what you guys all think...
I have the following questions regarding the creation of Adam and Eve that is mentioned in Surah 2. What does the word "names" occurring in these 230 refer to? God asked both the angels and Adam to name those things whereas He hadn?t taught the angels. How could the angels know the "names" since they were kept in darkness? Testing angels implies that, like human beings, they too have freedom of argument, choice, and action. Then what?s the difference between angels and human beings apart from the fact that they are made from different material? Why was Adam first sent to Paradise when he could have been sent directly to earth?
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I read this on another forum... thought id bring it over see what you guys all think...
I have the following questions regarding the creation of Adam and Eve that is mentioned in Surah 2.
Hello
What does the word "names" occurring in these 230 refer to?
It should be referring to names of objects, just any object
God asked both the angels and Adam to name those things whereas He hadn?t taught the angels.
Exactly, see the Quran told us that Allah taught Adam the names KULUHA, the word Kuluha means ?ALL THE NAMES of all the objects?.
On the other hand it is clear from the story in the Quran that Allah didn?t teach the Angels all the names.
Why He did that?, well it is totally up to Him what He does, He just can?t be questioned regarding His actions, this is what the Quran said, however for the sake of understanding I understand why we ask this question, indeed the Angels themselves asked a similar question, they asked Allah why He wants to create humans on earth, His reply though was tough, He responded that He knows what the angels don?t know, He did not tell them why He wants to create humans on earth rather a reply to totally shut them up from questioning Him regrading His actions.
How could the angels know the "names" since they were kept in darkness?
They were not kept in darkness, the matter is simply they were not taught the names of some objects, sort of it was not important for them to k now it according to their purpose of creation, but because they questioned Allah while He should not be questioned, Allah sort of exposed their ignorance regarding the things that He didn?t teach them, that is what they said too when they failed to state the names of these objects, they said that they only know what Allah taught them, can you see the difference,
Allah taught both, the angels and Adam, but with Adam, He taught Him all the names, but we were never told that the angels were taught all the names hence their failure to recognise some object names
Testing angels implies that,
That was not a test, in a way they need not to know the names of these new objects, the matter was only to expose their ignorance that they should not question Him regarding what He does.
If your read the story again, you will see that the angels didn?t just question Allah regarding Adam creation, but they also discussed the matter between themselves, sounds like the angels were really puzzled by Allah intentions, so in alter time they lept talking with themselves, so Allah gave them a lesson and told them that He surely knows what they say in public or in secret. ?Ma Tunbdoon Wa Ma Kuntum Taktimoon? 233, so it was not a test, the angels have no freewill as the humans and the jinn have.
like human beings, they too have freedom of argument, choice, and action.
The humans have the freedom to argue the existence of Allah, the angels don?t have that freedom, they know 100% that He exits therefore they should never question Him, we can?t compare the angels with humans as we can?t compare the apples with the mangos, this is a fallacy on its own. But if you insist to compare the two then a full on believer in total obedience like the status of the angels SHOULD NEVR QUESTION ALLAH concerning what He does, this is what Allah said in the Quran.
Then what?s the difference between angels and human beings apart from the fact that they are made from different material?
There is a huge difference indeed, the angels have no freewill and know 100% that Allah exits, the humans have freewill and are not sure that 100% Allah exits. That is what the test imposed on the humans and Jinn is all about, does Allah exist or not, for the angels they don?t have that option, for them Allah must exist 100%. This is a huge difference indeed.
Why was Adam first sent to Paradise when he could have been sent directly to earth?
This is the main wisdom in the whole story, see Allah said before creating Adam that He will create humans on EARTH, so we were created and were destined to earth to start the hardest test ever in this life, so Allah planned to accompany this with a huge lesson to Adam, being the first prophet to humanity, he would have learnt a great lesson in recognising how Iblis is our main enemy, I.e. Adam must have been very determined to transfer the message to his children whom they never seen any of this, imagine Adam was the same, he was created and sent straight to earth with an advice to watch for satan, would you think he would have been that committed?, well according to the human nature I don?t think so, look at most of us who only heard these stories and never seen any of all this, look how flawed we are even if we claim to believe in God and hate satan, imagine now how flawed we would have been without Iblis causing us to exit from the heaven.
Try to think of it in a simple manner as this
If you break the law and get punished severely, it is less likely that you will break the same law again
However Adam was only made to believe that his exit from heaven caused by listening to Satan who said the opposite to what Allah said
I believe later on Adam recognised that what he went through was a must to go through because it was according to Allah plan
If you read the story again you will see that Allah forgave Adam and his partner on the spot, and that was before He sent them to earth, so how come he forgave them on the spot while punishing them later and sending them to earth?, it makes no sense unless the removal from the heaven was not a punishment rather the next step of Allah plan for the humans to exist and be tested on earth
Allah knows best
Salam
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Peace "AB",
Amongst other things you said...That is what the test imposed on the humans and Jinn is all about, does Allah exist or not, for the angels they don?t have that option, for them Allah must exist 100%....
JK- Now please consider that GOD calls Iblees a Jinn in the Quran and he/it was also just like the malaika 100% sure of GOD as he/it was in direct contact with Him before. So does that now mean that Jinn also dont have a free will? Moreover free will itself is just an illusion. Everything happens as a cause of a previous thing and this chain continues. Thus there is no real free will, just the illusion of it which we have. Also saying tht any finite being can be 100% sure of anything is technically incorrect. One can be 99%,99.999%,99.99999999999999% sure but never 100%. Eg i just typed this message but can i be 100% sure tht i did it? The answer is no because there are still possibilities, though very vvery slight, tht 1)this is all a dream im having(someone might claim tht look tomorrow and i do n still find it there but then i can again say tht ive just not yet awakened from my dream and the uncertainty continues) 2) somebody else wrote it and a hypnotist gave me so many suggestions that i now beleive tht i, JonnyK, was the one who wrote it. This is why in science we always talk about probabilities of truth and thts with what we have to go. And yes if the prob of a certain thing is high we go for it even if it may be falsified in the future. This is how we have to live and in the long run we will succeed this way GW. GOD Bless!
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Peace
It seems areas of superiority are shown here between the human and the powers regulating the universe. Sometimes they have one, two, or more tasks, but that is all. Remember they said, "we know only what you have taught us". It's a humble attitude man should have. We grow cocky cause of our technology, but none of it surpasses the artistry of God in the human body alone, which is quite a feat of art and wit.
Joe
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Peace "AB",
Salam bro
Amongst other things you said
JK- Now please consider that GOD calls Iblees a Jinn in the QuranSorry bro, what do you mean ba calling him a jinn?, as far as I know iblis was never called a jinn, he was described as being from the jinn but that is not calling him jinn
and he/it was also just like the malaika 100% sure of GOD as he/it was in direct contact with Him before.
in this aspect only, I would say yes, however it seems that he totally miscalculated what the God should be, this is a common fallacy in humans also, look around you and you will see millions who claim to believe in God.
So does that now mean that Jinn also dont have a free will?
I don?t see the connection you are trying to explain, Iblis always and still have a free will (but it seems he is cursed), the angels never had one, so why you are comparing the two?
Moreover free will itself is just an illusion.
hmmm, well I may agree that the humans have one option to go for which is to believe, this is the only option to save the self (we don?t have more than one option to save the self). However that does not contradict the reason of our creation, we were created for that reason only which is to believe. And hence there are those who chose to believe and others who believe not, then there must be a free will regarding the belief, the outcome of that is totally different story.
Everything happens as a cause of a previous thing and this chain continues.
you can?t say the above so generally because there are things that happens out of the blue, the least your statement above does not apply to God, He can do anything or cause anyth9ing to happen without the need of a previous event.
Thus there is no real free will,
and what is the REAL free will?
Is it to reject belief and not be punished for it by God?
Well, on that account yes there is no real free will, but again that is not a contradiction, because He created us from the first place while we did not have any will to prevent that from happening
just the illusion of it which we have.
sorry, can you elaborate?
Also saying tht any finite being can be 100% sure of anything is technically incorrect. One can be 99%,99.999%,99.99999999999999% sure but never 100%.
I have to disagree bro, there are things that can be concluded 100%, and sometimes 500%, lol
Eg i just typed this message but can i be 100% sure tht i did it?
I say 500% you did
The answer is no because there are still possibilities, though very vvery slight,
the only possibility that you lied, however this is irrelevant because you have to also consider that I may have see you writing it, therefore from my side it has to be one of those 100% conclusions
tht 1)this is all a dream im having(someone might claim tht look tomorrow and i do n still find it there but then i can again say tht ive just not yet awakened from my dream and the uncertainty continues)
and did I see you writing it in that dream?, I mean if I saw you writing it and someone doubted you because you may be dreaming, then me and you must be dreaming the same dream, right?
- somebody else wrote it and a hypnotist gave me so many suggestions that i now beleive tht i, JonnyK,
hmmm, I had to be hypnotised with you then
was the one who wrote it.
and AB saw Jonny doing it, I mean her has to convince me too while I?m hypnotised with you. Far out bro, what the hell you are talking about?
This is why in science we always talk about probabilities of truth and thts with what we have to go.
sorry bro, what science has to do with belief exactly?
For me I don?t need science to believe, or should I?
And yes if the prob of a certain thing is high we go for it even if it may be falsified in the future. This is how we have to live and in the long run we will succeed this way GW. GOD Bless!
Thanks bro, but you can please tell me what all the above has to do with the story of Adam in the Quran?
Cheers
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Peace "AB",
Salam bro
JK- Regarding the bro issue i still cannot call you bro if you agree tht the Quran at some point allows wife beating. It is at total odds with my nature. Have you corrected this view of yours as yet?
Sorry bro, what do you mean ba calling him a jinn?, as far as I know iblis was never called a jinn, he was described as being from the jinn but that is not calling him jinn
JK- Same thing.
in this aspect only, I would say yes, however it seems that he totally miscalculated what the God should be, this is a common fallacy in humans also, look around you and you will see millions who claim to believe in God.
JK- Wht in the Quran tells you tht malaaika cannot miscalculate? Infact they already did by questioning GOD. Moreover these terms jinn and malaaikah do not necessarily refer to separate intelligent beings(SIBs) but rather parts of the human psyche/hidden and unknown tribes and forces of nature respectively. If you do beleive these two be two seprate entities however then to be consistent with evolution i would say tht u shld at least agree tht jinn are a differentiation of angels after their fall. Everything comes out of a singularity as per 2130 and scientific evidence.
I don?t see the connection you are trying to explain, Iblis always and still have a free will (but it seems he is cursed), the angels never had one, so why you are comparing the two?
JK- GOD gave the command exlcusively to the angels which can only mean tht angels and jinn were not differentiated as yet(if we take these terms as SIBs), thus iblees being a malak before too. or do you say GOD is unfair or inaccurate by commanding something to malaaikah, then a jinn does not obey and gets punished? Doesnt make sense either way.
hmmm, well I may agree that the humans have one option to go for which is to believe, this is the only option to save the self (we don?t have more than one option to save the self). However that does not contradict the reason of our creation, we were created for that reason only which is to believe. And hence there are those who chose to believe and others who believe not, then there must be a free will regarding the belief, the outcome of that is totally different story.
JK- If the outcome was not intended to be discussed then i agree.
you can?t say the above so generally because there are things that happens out of the blue, the least your statement above does not apply to God, He can do anything or cause anyth9ing to happen without the need of a previous event.
JK- There is nothing which happens "out of the blue" though it may intially appear so. There is always a cause for something, be it on the macro or micro level of particles.
and what is the REAL free will?
JK- I guess i shldnt have used the word real free will. Anywys i tried to differentiate btw the illusion of free will and actual free will.
Is it to reject belief and not be punished for it by God?
JK- No i think u got confused.
Well, on that account yes there is no real free will, but again that is not a contradiction, because He created us from the first place while we did not have any will to prevent that from happening
JK- You are correct to the first part. As to 2nd part im not completely sure. I agree we dont remember anything before birth but ive theorized tht it maybe possible tht our creation, which is a differetiation of ultimately quantum particles, to our current state, might just be because we cldnt bear the presence of GOD, argued with Him or whtsoever. This would relax the issue as to why some people are born disabled. Another possibility is multiple earth tests(the quran mentions 7 heavens and A LIKEWISE NO of EARTHs in one verse) and after we die here we go to the next and next seven times and/or until we have evolved enough to be ion the presence of GOD again. This is perhaps more resonable because taking the memory of past experiecen hinders improvement if im not missing something and since we have no memories before our birth this life of ours is the first. This also seems more consistent with GOD stating He created us when we were nothing.
sorry, can you elaborate?
JK- We just feel tht we have free will whilse there is no such thing because everything is causal. Our conscience is also a result of causal activities in our brain.
I have to disagree bro, there are things that can be concluded 100%, and sometimes 500%, lol
JK- >100% confirmity is sometimes used emotinally but is obviously technically incorrect. How can one be more right than completely right, techncally? 2ndly no we can only approach 100% but never actually reach tht either since we are finite beings and it would require infinite calcs for anything to be 100% sure(note theres a great diff btw 99.9%(1 in 1000 uncertainty) and 99.9999%(1 in a million uncertainty)).
I say 500% you did
JK A lear eg of an emotional statement.
the only possibility that you lied, however this is irrelevant because you have to also consider that I may have see you writing it, therefore from my side it has to be one of those 100% conclusions
JK- See now even you had to admit tht there is a possibility and tht is definitely not the only one. Ofcourse one can make many more observations which further decrease the probability of me not have written the above post but still not 100%.
and did I see you writing it in that dream?, I mean if I saw you writing it and someone doubted you because you may be dreaming, then me and you must be dreaming the same dream, right?
JK- Infact you did not see me writing at all. All you saw is a post in the name of jonnyk. Who knoiws maybe someone stole my ID and wrote in my name.
hmmm, I had to be hypnotised with you then
and AB saw Jonny doing it, I mean her has to convince me too while I?m hypnotised with you. Far out bro, what the hell you are talking about?
JK- I think ive explained this now above tht you can never be 100% sure. In this case you cant even be sure whther this post in my name and the one posted the previous day are both from the same person. Cldve been my bro, mom, friend, etc whom i told to write it down for me. So you clearly see tht this case is far from even 99.999% certainty.
sorry bro, what science has to do with belief exactly?
JK- Science and the scientific method is what leads to a certain probability of something being true or not in the first place. How in GOD's name can i know tht the Quran is correct and from GOD with high certainty if i do not emploiy the scientific method?
For me I don?t need science to believe, or should I?
JK- Please tell me what lead you to the conclusion tht the Quran is GOD's Word. Then we'll discuss this.
Thanks bro, but you can please tell me what all the above has to do with the story of Adam in the Quran?
Cheers
JK- Adam most likely does not refer to any one individual man. Adam were the first humans which evolved on the african continent(note tht the original term adam also denotes BLACK ppl and this is very consistent with science). You should read and consider some of bro Arnold's articles. GOD Bless!
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Peace "AB",
Salam bro
JK- Regarding the bro issue i still cannot call you bro if you agree tht the Quran at some point allows wife beating. It is at total odds with my nature. Have you corrected this view of yours as yet?
What a load of non sense, it is you who needs to correct his views, not one, but many
I refuted this matter before you Arabic language ignorant, there was no Anhuna in the verse to mean stay away from them, you are a clear cut liar
For the bro thingy, of course I dontl consider you a brother in faith, I only used the amercian word to call you, I just didn?t want to call you with your name
Can you stop me from calling you bro?
JK- Same thing.
dismissed
JK- Wht in the Quran tells you tht malaaika cannot miscalculate?
There is no miscalculation, it was a matter of ignorance on the malaika side
Infact they already did by questioning GOD.
So?
Moreover these terms jinn and malaaikah do not necessarily refer to separate intelligent beings(SIBs) but rather parts of the human psyche/hidden and unknown tribes and forces of nature respectively.
dismissed
If you do beleive these two be two seprate entities
Of course I believe it 500%
however then to be consistent with evolution i would say tht u shld at least agree tht jinn are a differentiation of angels after their fall. Everything comes out of a singularity as per 2130 and scientific evidence.
there is no evolution therefore I have to dismiss your silly statement
JK- GOD gave the command exlcusively to the angels which can only mean tht angels and jinn were not differentiated as yet(if we take these terms as SIBs), thus iblees being a malak before too. or do you say GOD is unfair or inaccurate by commanding something to malaaikah, then a jinn does not obey and gets punished? Doesnt make sense either way.
God said in another verse that Ibis is from the Jinn, God has refuted your lie
JK- If the outcome was not intended to be discussed then i agree.
Mate, you talk a lot of non sense, I have to dismiss the rest of your comment, indeed most 19ers are nothing but time watsres, sorry
JK- There is nothing which happens "out of the blue" though it may intially appear so. There is always a cause for something, be it on the macro or micro level of particles.
JK- I guess i shldnt have used the word real free will. Anywys i tried to differentiate btw the illusion of free will and actual free will.
JK- No i think u got confused.
JK- You are correct to the first part. As to 2nd part im not completely sure. I agree we dont remember anything before birth but ive theorized tht it maybe possible tht our creation, which is a differetiation of ultimately quantum particles, to our current state, might just be because we cldnt bear the presence of GOD, argued with Him or whtsoever. This would relax the issue as to why some people are born disabled. Another possibility is multiple earth tests(the quran mentions 7 heavens and A LIKEWISE NO of EARTHs in one verse) and after we die here we go to the next and next seven times and/or until we have evolved enough to be ion the presence of GOD again. This is perhaps more resonable because taking the memory of past experiecen hinders improvement if im not missing something and since we have no memories before our birth this life of ours is the first. This also seems more consistent with GOD stating He created us when we were nothing.
JK- We just feel tht we have free will whilse there is no such thing because everything is causal. Our conscience is also a result of causal activities in our brain.
JK- >100% confirmity is sometimes used emotinally but is obviously technically incorrect. How can one be more right than completely right, techncally? 2ndly no we can only approach 100% but never actually reach tht either since we are finite beings and it would require infinite calcs for anything to be 100% sure(note theres a great diff btw 99.9%(1 in 1000 uncertainty) and 99.9999%(1 in a million uncertainty)).
JK A lear eg of an emotional statement.
JK- See now even you had to admit tht there is a possibility and tht is definitely not the only one. Ofcourse one can make many more observations which further decrease the probability of me not have written the above post but still not 100%.
JK- Infact you did not see me writing at all. All you saw is a post in the name of jonnyk. Who knoiws maybe someone stole my ID and wrote in my name.
JK- I think ive explained this now above tht you can never be 100% sure. In this case you cant even be sure whther this post in my name and the one posted the previous day are both from the same person. Cldve been my bro, mom, friend, etc whom i told to write it down for me. So you clearly see tht this case is far from even 99.999% certainty.
JK- Science and the scientific method is what leads to a certain probability of something being true or not in the first place. How in GOD's name can i know tht the Quran is correct and from GOD with high certainty if i do not emploiy the scientific method?
JK- Please tell me what lead you to the conclusion tht the Quran is GOD's Word. Then we'll discuss this.
JK- Adam most likely does not refer to any one individual man. Adam were the first humans which evolved on the african continent(note tht the original term adam also denotes BLACK ppl and this is very consistent with science). You should read and consider some of bro Arnold's articles. GOD Bless!
dismissed
Salam
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Peace "AB",
What a load of non sense, it is you who needs to correct his views, not one, but many
JK- DISMISSED!
I refuted this matter before you Arabic language ignorant, there was no Anhuna in the verse to mean stay away from them, you are a clear cut liar
JK- I thik bro Arnold and others have given enough examples using classical arabic dictionaries and other qurani usages of the same term.
For the bro thingy, of course I dontl consider you a brother in faith, I only used the amercian word to call you, I just didn?t want to call you with your name
Can you stop me from calling you bro?
jk- dismissed
There is no miscalculation, it was a matter of ignorance on the malaika side
So?
JK- If it was mere ignorance why do the angels say "would You create one who would shed blood...whilst wer praising you day and night". This sure is indicative of arrogance on their part as well.
there is no evolution therefore I have to dismiss your silly statement
JK- Besides their being tons of scientific evidence at talkorigins.org here is one of the latest proofs
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5MGod said in another verse that Ibis is from the Jinn, God has refuted your lie
JK- The word "kaana(past tense of "kun" which means be/becomes)" can just as well mean "became".
Mate, you talk a lot of non sense, I have to dismiss the rest of your comment, indeed most 19ers are nothing but time watsres, sorry
dismissed
Salam
JK- Yeah right, nice way to discuss the issues. > GOD Bless!
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Salam jonny
look bro, I'm not discussing the issue, I was onlt replying to the main thread questions, however you want to debate it so you may find somone else to debate it with him
on the other hand I'm happy to debate code 19 with you, you may also watch a proposed debate between brother dip and myself coming soon to FI, of course if brother Edip accepted my challenge
Salam
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Peace "AB",
JK- Id love to see tht. GOD Bless!
Salam bro
Brother Edip just joined FI (My special welcome to him), the rules has been set by brother Zayd, hofully we have some professional debates that all enjoy
Salam
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Peace "AB",
JK- Which forum is tht? Link plz. GOD Bless!
Salam bro
it has not started yet, however brother Zayd has posted the rules if you would like to read it
http//www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=399
Cheers
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I read this on another forum... thought id bring it over see what you guys all think...
I have the following questions regarding the creation of Adam and Eve that is mentioned in Surah 2. What does the word "names" occurring in these 230 refer to? God asked both the angels and Adam to name those things whereas He hadn?t taught the angels. How could the angels know the "names" since they were kept in darkness? Testing angels implies that, like human beings, they too have freedom of argument, choice, and action. Then what?s the difference between angels and human beings apart from the fact that they are made from different material? Why was Adam first sent to Paradise when he could have been sent directly to earth?
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, means by the names of Allah Mercifull and Belevolent.
Names translated form ismun, or in English called as "ism" an idiology or teachings.