Muhammad Wrote the quran
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Well this thread grew overnight like a beanstalk.
Irrelevant to my comment.You actually preseneted no argument other than emotional gesture
It's thinking about possibilities and not saying that whatever conclusion we infer according to the evidence isn't subject to change with new evidence/information/knowledge as in the case of someone who might call their hadith divine and not changeable. Thus there is a big difference.
and the relevence is?. why you want to speculate someting that will neber be known?
that is exactly what thye sunni did, right?
Relevance of that to my comment?
Right.
She gave reasoning, not a story that's divine. You should be trying to refute her reasoning if you think otherwise.
That's just ironic.again in her hadith, she claimed the prophet wrote Be Ism as Bism, I'm still waiting for the evdinece that the prophet did so, till then it will stay as conjectures like like the conjectures by the sunni
Salam
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Peace all,
but it was after his death in khalifa Uthman's time, that it was compiled in a book format in the present order.
The above is incorrect. The Qur'aan was in a book form (written AND compiled in book form) during the time of the Prophet. Please re-read the article I referenced earlier for proofs from al-qur'aan. Sister Honor's post indicates that she also has not read the referenced article which corrects some of her misunderstandings
http//free-minds.org/books/wadud_05.htm
The ahadith were compiled by Persians in Persia (All 10 of them) two centuries after the death of prophet , on hearsay coming through 7th generation, Their Frozen brains could not comprehend , as to why no Arab dared to collect/write such a writing.
Yes, but the first ahadeeth were written about 80-100 years after the death of the Prophet, and then compiled in book form about 200 years after his death.
Thus there is a huge difference
The Qur'aan was written AND compiled in book form during the life of the Prophet.
The unverifiable hearsays claimed to be ahadeeth of the Prophet were first written down 80-100 years after his death and started being compiled in book form about 200 years after his death. No ahadeeth were written down during the Prophet's life and during the time of the four caliphs. Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri, is among those who first transcribed ahadeeth at the behest of Umayyad caliph Umar II (d.720). Please see the following
http//free-minds.org/articles/hadith/hadithhistory.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Shihab_al-Zuhri
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Hello all
Let me start by refuting the non sense by some ignorant Muslims that Mohammad wr0te the Quran with his own hands according to 255
We need to have a look at 254-5 together
4 And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.
5- And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.?
(4)
(5)-> When Mohammad came up with the Quran the kafiroon disbelieved him then they started a propaganda war to discredit Mohammad, one of the things they claimed is as follow as seen in 254 ? And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it?, they also claimed the following in 255 ? And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.?
Now the same ignorant Muslims who rejected the claim by the Kuffar in 254 that ? This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it? accepted the other claim by the Kuffar that ? he has got them written?, can you see how Shakir translated it, ? he has got them written?, that is exactly what the word ??, ?Iktatbaha?, i.e. ?made someone else to write it?, if it was him who wrote it then the word must be ?Katabaha? not Ikitatabaha?
Regardless of what Iktatabaha means, this is a lie by the kuffar as the other lie they said in the previous verse i.e. the following two claims by the Kuffar are nothing but ies
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254 ? And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it?
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255 ? And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.?
However, some ignorant Muslims picked and chose 255 ?The lie by the Kuffar? as a conclusive evidnece that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands
Let me ask those ignorant Muslims, if they take the claim by the Kuffar in 255 as truthful, why the hell they don?t tale the other claim by the kuffar in 254 as truthful?
Whoever claim this non sense about 255 has been exposed
Salam
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It is said that Ibn Shibab had an extraordinary memory - he memorized the Qur?an before he was seven in only eight days, and he was eighteen years old when he began to do ijtihad. There was nothing he would forget after having learned it ?I have betrayed nothing which Allah put in my heart as a trust?, he used to say.
in eight days before he was seven hey? sounds like myth to me
am i supposed to take anything relating to this person seriously?
this is evidence of when ahadith began to be compiled? come on
shall we replace one garbage history with another? i hope not.
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Let me now reply to 2948
And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.
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Clearly it says ? ?, ? And you did not recite before it any book,?, i.e. Mohammad never read a book before, then it says ? ?, ? nor did you transcribe one with your right hand?, some ignorant Muslims deceive others by severely manipulating 2948 and lie saying, Mohammad knew how to write, obviously this means that Mohammad also knew how to read, they also lie and say the he even wrote the Quran with his own hands before he died, this is an obvious clear cut lie that they only cooked to serve their low desires, Allah clearly told us that Mohammad did not know how to read nor write up to the Quran revelation then we were NOT told that the revelation that he learnt how to write then write the Quran, the ignorant on the other hand say but 2948 stated that HE DIDN?T WRITE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES BEFORE, total non sense because if the BOOK was mentioned without the ?Al? i.e. ?THE? then it is called Nakirah, i.e. UNKNOWN. i.e. ANY BOOK that you can think of, here it is again ? ?, ?Min Kitab?, NOT ?Min AL Kitab?, therefore Allah clearly means Mohammad never wrote or read any book before the Quran revelation. (any book you can think of including scriptures - UNKNOWN), Allah never told us that after the revelation Mohammad learnt how to write and write the whole Quran with his own hands, whoever claim that is a clear cut liar because Allah never said so
Salam
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Peace all,
2947 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book (al-kitaab). Thus, those whom We have given the Scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters.
2948 You were not reciting any book before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.It is obvious here tht 2947 is referring to the Qur'aan by "the Book"/al-kitaab, and thus "before this"/qablihi in 2948 means "before this Book (the Qur'aan)". 2948, therefore, means that the Prophet never wrote a book by his hand before the Qur'aan, which clearly indicates that the Prophet wrote this book (the Qur'aan) with his hand.
If I make a statement about any of you in reference to a certain book that "you never wrote a book with your hand before this book", it can only mean that you wrote this book with your hand. Even a 5th grader can comprehend that, unlike someone here who probably needs a brain transplant !
As far as 255 is concerned, Samia had the foresight to anticipate the above post about 255, and she had already posted its refutation in an earlier post (see Samia's last post above) !
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t l w - 1
t l w - 2
t l w - 3seems to me that this root can also mean follow... has anyone even bothered to investigate or suppose that perhaps it isn't talking about reciting at all, but following instead?
perhaps it is saying to the addressee that said addressee never followed prior to this
so perhaps verse chopping is totally out of order since it has other possible meanings than what everyone is trying to make it say
so much for definitive proof... not like anyone can prove anything to anyone else anyways... if someone doesn't want to believe, they simply won't )
enjoy
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Peace all,
The above is a red herring and has no bearing on the current discussion. The relevant word in 2948 is "takhuttuhu" from the root "kha-tay-tay". The discussion is about writing the Qur'aan, not "TLW" of the Qur'aan.
If I tell you "you have never written a book before this book", it can only mean that you have written this book.
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Peace Ahmed
Salam mate
I will have to agree that some do because I do.
Very strange that you make conjectures facts, not much difference from the Sunni hey.
I do not think I am ignorant because I do so.
well, anyone who believes in conjectures as facts being me or you must be a clear cut ignorant, like the sunni exactly, LOL
I may be enlightened because I do.
Great
Apparently you seem to think you have the correct answer so I think I can safely assume you can guide us all to the promised land.
Are you having a go at sarcasm?. Well you are not doing well in that department,
On the other hand yes my answer is the right one as far as avoiding conjectures is concerned, we don?t know if Mohammad wrote the Quran with his own hands or not, NOTHING IN THE QURAN THAT SUGGEST THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE THE WHOLE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS
I?m still waiting for the verse to conclusively prove so.
This is a quote from the link which you will not visit
Sure, let?s have a look
In al-quran there is a challenge put forth to those who would seek to disavow al-quran's divine inspiration. It is made clear that nobody will be able to produce such a reading however.
Sure
"And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your helpers besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it) - then be on you guard against the fire whose fuel is men and stones; it is prepared for the disbelievers. (223-24)
Sure
- Since no man should be able to produce a writ such as al-quran then there should be no doubt that such a reading is from the divine.
What you are going on about exactly bro?
We are not disputing the divinity of the Quran,
Here is the question again
Where is the verse in the Quran that conclusively tells us that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands?
I?m still waiting.
Chapter 29 verse 48 seems to make it apparent that the prophet/messenger could read and write because it is declared the Muhammad could not produce a writ such as al-quran by his own means. We already know that no man can do such by their own means because of verses 23-24 of chapter 2.
2948 never said Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with hs own hands, please be aware that gussing can not be addmisable
And thou didst not recite before it any book, nor didst thou transcribe one with thy right hand, for then could the liars have doubted. (294
That is right, i.e. Mohammad didn?t write the Quran, otherwise ? the liars have doubted.?, SEE
Thus we are presented with the fact that the prophet/messenger never transcribed or recited such a revelation by his own means for if he did the liars would have a just reason to doubt that al-quran was from God. Since nobody can produce such a revelation (see 223-24) we know that it was not written by Muhammad from his own means, nor did he ever have the means to produce any other scripture."
what is going on here?
Here is the Question again, where in 2948 that it says Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands?
I?m still waiting
In the link I posted which you will not visit it states
sorry, I don?t look ar urls posted by anyone to me, either they put the argument using their own words or I will dismiss it.
"Regarding the word 'umme' the following verses will be used to back up my view that it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.
And when they meet those who believe they say, We believe, and when they are apart with one another they say, Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not understand? Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but only (from) heresay, and they do but conjecture. (276-7
Here we have the 'umme' among those who conceal the truth, keeping it among themselves as if they own it. The last sentence actually makes it clear what 'umme' is referring to; it is those who do not know about the book, they learn of it from ramblings and only guess about it. Thus they are not familiar with the divine precepts."
Joe
well, I will reply to your Ummi argument later on tonight inshaallah
Salam
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2948 is proof that the Prophet learned how to write after the start of revelation
2948 You were not reciting any scripture before this (qablihi), nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
Let me break it down further for someone here who might have the comprehension ability of a 5th grader
From 2948
You were not reciting any scripture before this ------> indicates you (the Prophet) recited the whole Qur'aan
SIMILARLY
Nor were you writing one down by your hand ------> indicates you (the Prophet) wrote down the whole Qur'aan with your hand.
you keep bringing up this verse, and you continuously translate it as recite. i provided an alternative interpretation of the evidence. this is not a red herring at all.
if you post an entire verse as evidence then the entire verse is up for being interpreted... unless you just want to look right instead of actually be right... up to you, doctor P
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You actually preseneted no argument other than emotional gesture
and the relevence is?. why you want to speculate someting that will neber be known?
that is exactly what thye sunni did, right?
again in her hadith, she claimed the prophet wrote Be Ism as Bism, I'm still waiting for the evdinece that the prophet did so, till then it will stay as conjectures like like the conjectures by the sunni
Salam
I wasn't presenting an argument to or for the subject Ahmed sigh. I was asking you to refute people based on logic/reasoning of what they actually said as opposed to "look someone wrote a post, hence it is a story, thus a hadith, therefore bwahaha, caught you red handed, hypocrites". It isn't a refutation if it's irrational is it. Samia was using reasoning as she does in most of her posts, try to refute reasoning using reason? Secondly, regarding what you call speculation...I think it's inference rather than speculation in this case because she has given the evidence in her posts.
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t l w - 1
t l w - 2
t l w - 3seems to me that this root can also mean follow... has anyone even bothered to investigate or suppose that perhaps it isn't talking about reciting at all, but following instead?
Yes, it means to follow as in consecutive, not as in "to abide with".
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Peace Aaron,
You are going off-topic
What I meant was that either translation will not change the argument presented in favor of the Prophet writing the Qur'aan with his hand. Try substituting "recite" with "follow" in 2948 everywhere in my relevant posts and you will see that it makes no difference in the argument presented pertaining to this thread. That is why I said that this has no bearing on the present discussion pertinent to this thread.
Maybe you should start a separate thread in the "questions/comments on the Qur'aan" section about the appropriate translation of "tatloo" in 2948, addressed to the Classical Arabic experts, to sort this issue out. !
It appears that Samia has already sorted out this issue. According to her elaboration, the meaning of "follow" as in "consecutive" would make no sense in 2948, showing that it can only mean read/recite in the relevant verse. Where The God wants to indicate "follow" as in "abide with", He uses the words "attabi3u" (650, 1015) or "tabi3a" etc. of the root form "TB3".
I will not make any more comments on this particular issue in this thread.
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It appears that Samia has already sorted out this issue. According to her elaboration, the meaning of "follow" as in "consecutive" would make no sense in 2948, showing that it can only mean read/recite in the relevant verse. I will not make any more comments on this particular issue in this thread.
Salaam Tanweer
I gave the basic meaning. However, it does relate to reading, too. When you read, don't you recite the words consecutively to make a comrehensible sentence?
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at the top of this page in the right hand column it says "Hw ytlw flana" and then gives the meaning "He imitates such a one and follows what he does; he follows him in action" - and close again underneath that another derivative is given the meaning "he read, or perused, or recited... or he followed..." and goes on to say "the Kuran or any discourse or piece of language"
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ahmed
Hello
is there any definitive proof from this quran that it was not written down by the person to whom it was revealed?
No
you keep askin for solid proof that it was... do you have solid proof that it wasn't?
well, it is not like if there is no proof that I didn't go the moon that I must have gone to the moon
silly argument by you
again, we don't know conclusivly if Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands or not, the onus are on those who claim as such, till then it has to stay nothing but conjectures
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I wasn't presenting an argument to or for the subject Ahmed sigh.
sorry for the misunderstaning then
I was asking you to refute people based on logic/reasoning of what they actually said as opposed to "look someone wrote a post, hence it is a story, thus a hadith, therefore bwahaha, caught you red handed, hypocrites". It isn't a refutation if it's irrational is it.
well it is a logical argument, the members in here keep bragging about the conjecutres in the Hadith by the sunnis, on the other hand they create their own hadith at the same time, can't you see that?
pretty silly if you ask me
Samia was using reasoning as she does in most of her posts, try to refute reasoning using reason?
she provided no evidnece but conjectyures, she claimed the prophet must have wrote the word Be Ism, as Bism, now I'm still waiting for the evidence that the prophet did so, till then it has to stay conjectures
Secondly, regarding what you call speculation...I think it's inference rather than speculation in this case because she has given the evidence in her posts.
then tell me what it should lead to that the prophet or another human wrote the Quran, we know that the Quran is from God, He Also never said who wrote it down from humans, why you want the Muslims to follow your conjectures that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands?
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I nominate this - the thread that grew the fastest.
I just wanted to say thanks Tanveer for answering the question. What I found funny was how all your posts were ignored by the person who asked!
PEACE
Hello
what I also found funny that you didn't reply to my question to your allegation in page one
so insteadd of accusing others of acting funny because they didn't not reply to others I urge you to look in the mirror
Thank you
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silly argument by you
it was a question, not an argument. get your mind right, son
again, we don't know conclusivly if Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands or not, the onus are on those who claim as such, till then it has to stay nothing but conjectures
they believe one way and post what they consider evidence, and if you believe the opposite then you should post what you consider evidence. if you don't care either way who wrote it down, then that's fine too.