Muhammad Wrote the quran

Al-Quraishi

Hows about we have a 1 on 1 with this?

It'll be much better if one participant can make a claim with their evidences and the one with the opposing view can make their refutation/counter claim with theirs in a structured manner.

unknownuser

Hello Joe

Let me now reply to your view regarding the word Ummi

"Regarding the word 'umme' the following verses will be used to back up my view that it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.

Firstly your comment above is very vague, you said ? it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.?,

What that means exactly?

Did they receive a scripture or not? Without waiting for your answer I will state to you all possibilities and show you that it still makes no sense under all

Possibly you mean any of the followings

They never received a scripture before, i.e. they have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
They received scriptures but they ignored it and never pondered upon it, i.e. they have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees

That is the only two possibilities as far as believe that should be the cause for your statement, that they have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees

Let?s now look at the verses where the Ummi and its plural appeared and see which one of the possibilities above fit (it can?t be both)

Let me first say that The word Ummia means illiteracy, it is very common in the Arab world, there is even a common expression used in these countries called Mahw Al Ummia, i.e. eliminating illiteracy, it is a program to educate those who do not read nor write

On the other hand, if we talk logically then we have 3 other possibilities in addition to those who don?t read nor write

Those who read but not write
Those who write but not read
Those who do both

Possibility 1 is valid because there are many who can read but can?t write, I know a lot myself in different languages

Possibility no 2 is illogical because there is no way that someone who can write Arabic words while can?t read it at the same time. We are not talking drawing in here.

We have to eliminate possibility 3 because if you read and write then you are not Ummi any more

Therefore the word Ummi applies to the followings

Those who don?t read nor write
Those who read but don?t write

I.e. any one who belongs to any of the above MUST BE UMMI

The Quran clearly referred to the prophet as an Ummi in two locations (I think), let me bring them all so we leave nothing without pondering on, I brought in the most common translations

157
YUSUFALI "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

PICKTHAL Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him they are the successful.

SHAKIR Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

158
YUSUFALI Say O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words follow him that (so) ye may be guided.

PICKTHAL Say (O Muhammad) O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

SHAKIR Say O people! surely I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, of Him Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He; He brings to life and causes to die therefore believe in Allah and His messenger, the Ummi Prophet who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that you may walk in the right way.

(157)
(15

-> As you can see above the word ??, appeared in both verses, regardless of what the verses say let?s see how all translators did

YUSUFALI translated as ?the Unlettered?
PICKTHAL translated as ?who can neither read nor write?
SHAKIR was not translated and was kept as ?the Ummi?

I would say all three are accurate, because the Quran told us clearly that the prophet never wrote nor read a book before in 2948 as I explained earlier.

We can safely say that Mohammad DID?T READ NOR WRITE at least up to the Quran revelation, i.e. the word Ummi applies to him, remember that it applies to the following

Those who don?t read nor write (Mohammad belongs to this group 294
Those who read but don?t write

And that is why I said all 3 translators are accurate because if you don?t know how to read nor write as we were told that Mohammad was alike, then you are any of the followings and according to each translator

YUSUFALI ?the Unlettered?
PICKTHAL ?who can neither read nor write?
SHAKIR ?the Ummi? under the Arabic language of course, because Shakir did not translate it at all, I guess he was not sure what it means.

Now to claim that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands before he died is unfounded and is nothing but conjectures because to prove so you need to refer to the history about Mohammad, the Quran never told us that he did so we only left with the history, the history on the other hand never told us that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, this is an obvious clear cut lie that some ignorant try to inject it through the minds of na?ve Muslims, deliberately or not I don?t care, this won?t stop me from showing that they are saying nothing but conjectures, I?m sure it has to serve something they have in mind but I?m also sure that it will serve a low desire. Allah clearly told us that Mohammad did not know how to read nor write, you along with others claim that 2948 stated that HE DIDN?T WRITE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES BEFORE BUT KNEW HOW TO WRITE, total non sense, let me say why again, because if the BOOK mentioned was without the Al, i.e. THE then it is called Nakirah, i.e. UNKNOWN. i.e. ANY BOOK that you can think of, here it is again ? ?, ?Min Kitab?, NOT ?Min AL Kitab?, therefore Allah clearly means Mohammad never wrote or read any book before. (any book you can think of including scriptures - UNKNOWN)

Let?s now assume that all the above is wrong and the word Ummi means that Mohammad ?has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.?, obviously according to that then we have to eliminate one of the possibilities, let me bring them again

Mohammad never received a scripture before, i.e. he has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
Mohammad received scriptures but he ignored it and never pondered upon it, i.e. he has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees

Sure we have to eliminate possibility 2 because Mohammad never received a scripture before the Quran, right?

Therefore under your view the word Ummi should mean one who has not received a scripture before.

Let?s see if that meaning fit in other verses

We have the following verse describing the Jews

YUSUFALI And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

PICKTHAL Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.

SHAKIR And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.

(7

-> The above verse is compelling evidence against those ignorant who say Ummieen /Ummioon means those who didn?t received a scripture, 278 is talking about the JEWS, indeed the whole context for tens of verses before it is all about the Jews and as you can see Allah described SOME OF THEM as illiterates ? ?, ?Wa Minhum Ummioon La Yalamoon Al Kitab?, i.e. ? Among them are unlettered folk who know not the Book?, obviously the Jews received the Book called Al Torah, this means, the ignorant logic that Ummioon means those who didn?t receive the Book is nothing but a lie, can you also see that Al which means THE preceded the word Kitab, i.e. THE BOOK, i.e. not any book rather their book ?THE SCRIPTURE?, ?THE TORAH?

Therefore all translators are accurate in translating the Plural of Ummi as illiterates, I wonder though why Shakir didn?t keep it as Ummioon as he did before in 7157-158, sounds he was a bit confused.

-> Now we have a contradiction under your understanding brother Joe, because we concluded that Ummi means those who has not received a book, while 278 is telling describing those who received a book as Ummioon, right?

Let me bring the two possibilities again and see if we can eliminate a possibility

They never received a scripture before, i.e. They have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
They received scriptures but they ignored it and never pondered upon it, i.e. they has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees

Remember, we eliminated possibility 2 before, now it is about time to eliminate possibility 1 according to 278

i.e. we are left with no possibilities, see, no sense as I told you earlier

Let me continue with you Joe and see how your understanding that was vague from the first place fits more verses

YUSUFALI So if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me. And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned Do ye (also) submit yourselves? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

PICKTHAL And if they argue with thee, (O Muhammad), say I have surrendered my purpose to Allah and (so have) those who follow me. And say unto those who have received the Scripture and those who read not Have ye (too) surrendered? If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is thy duty only to convey the message (unto them). Allah is Seer of (His) bondmen.

SHAKIR But if they dispute with you, say I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.

(20)

-> In the above example we read a clear order from Allah to Mohammad ? ?, ?Wa Qul Li Alazina Uotu Al Kitab Wa Al Ummieen A Aslamtum?, i.e. ?and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people Do you submit yourselves??, i.e. all translators are accurate in translating the word Ummieen, but I still wonder why Pichthal is not consistent?, see, he first translated it as ?who can neither read nor write? in 7157-158 then he used the word ? unlettered? in 278 then in here he translated it as ?read not?, very confusing by him, I agree that all may be equal in meaning, but the Arabic word was the same in all three locations you expect the same English word I reckon.

I still have to say, you will see many ignorant who will lie and say oh yeh, here is our compelling evidence that Ummieen means those who didn?t receive a scripture, they lie and say, look at the above verse, Allah said to Mohammad , say to those who received the book and to the Ummieen, i.e. the Ummieen is the opposite of those who received the book, i.e. the Ummieen means those who didn?t receive the book

What a fallacy, I can?t believe it man. So you reckon if I say to the Americans and the British to piss off Iraq, would that mean the British are the opposite of the Americans?, bloody crap bro, what load of non sense is that?

Remember that we have seen the Jews been described as Ummioon in 278, and they received The book, right?

Quraish people were mostly Ummioon, i.e. most of them didn?t k now how to read nor write or at least they knew how to read but not write, the prophet though was uniquely flagged by Allah in the Quran as one of those Ummioon who didn?t know how to read not write as 2948 told us, indeed the Jews used to refer to Quarish as Ummioon, i.e. those who mostly are illiterate, let?s have a clear example

YUSUFALI Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans). but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.

PICKTHAL Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

SHAKIR And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know.

(75)

-> See above, the verse is about a trust between Quraish and the Jews or I should say Ahl Al Kitab in general, some of the Jews dishonoured some trusts and said ?There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach)? , only Shakir got it right this time, both Yusuf Ali and Pikhthal contradicted themselves really bad, see how they translated the same word as ? ignorant? and ? Gentiles?, respectively, they are very confused mate and their translations can never be trusted.

And finally bro, let me bring this compelling example

2
YUSUFALI It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-

PICKTHAL He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest,

SHAKIR He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

3
SHAKIR And others from among them who have not yet joined them; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.

(2)
(3)

-> The two verses above are very important, because I believe it is only concerning the Ummieen who lack literacy regardless if they only lack writing or lack both writing and reading, at the end of the day they lack literacy , one of the duties of the prophet was to explain to those who lack literacy Al Kitab and Al Hikmah, before that, they really were in clear error, and as a mercy from Allah, He deployed Mohammad for them to teach them what they can?t understand on their own even if they know how to read. I can assure you bro there are many non Arabic speaking Muslims who read the Quran in Arabic and they don?t understand a word, they have just been taught how to recite it, you will find many of those in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, and India, those must be called Ummioon of course, you can see that Yusuf Ali and Pikhthal translated it right while Shakir tried to be a bit smart and said ? the inhabitants of Mecca?, i.e. Quraish, and the history tells us that most of Quraishis were illiterates, on the other hand Shakir also contradicted himself.

And when they meet those who believe they say, We believe, and when they are apart with one another they say, Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not understand? Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but only (from) heresay, and they do but conjecture. (276-7

I explained 276 above bro

Here we have the 'umme' among those who conceal the truth, keeping it among themselves as if they own it.

That is a totally new meaning for the Ummi, now I have to say we have to agree to disagree, just let the public make up their minds

The last sentence actually makes it clear what 'umme' is referring to; it is those who do not know about the book, they learn of it from ramblings and only guess about it. Thus they are not familiar with the divine precepts."

Joe

well, The jews described Quraish as Ummioon and that is after Quraish received the Quran, I really don?t understand why you are mnaking it too hard to understand, the religion of Islam is simple and easy bro. what you are saying is nothing but puzzles and vague views that comply with only non sense

the word Ummin is Unlattered, and it means any of the followings

one who does not know how to read nor write
one who knows how to read but not write

Salam

unknownuser

it was a question, not an argument. get your mind right, son

back to silly name calling again?

so you called me Ahmed Bigot and I have forgiven you, now you are calling me son, would that be a complemet and my lack of english made me think that it is mocking?

sorry for calling it a silly argument, you are right it was a silly question

see, I have been to Mars because there is no evidence that I didn't go to Mars, hahahahaha

they believe one way and post what they consider evidence, and if you believe the opposite then you should post what you consider evidence. if you don't care either way who wrote it down, then that's fine too.

well, I responded the most on this thread, please get your mind right dad

zenje

Peace AB, Peace..

he is repeating the verse that you agreed it is not conclusive that Moghammad wrote the Quran

Hello

what I also found funny that you didn't reply to my question to your allegation in page one

so insteadd of accusing others of acting funny because they didn't not reply to others I urge you to look in the mirror
First of all I just wanted to say, I wrote some points on page 1 yesterday and when I came back to this thread late last night, it was 5 pages long. If you missed that in my post then here it is. Secondly, I pointed out that whatever I would have replied, Tanveer said it, hence the gratitude sent in his direction. But you seemed to have missed that also. Yet, you didn't reply to his point, even after he repeated it. You kept replying others, so I know you saw it, whether you read it or not, I cannot say.

Finally I saw this morning that you have replied to the verse I was pointing out. But instead of explaining your point of view, you just kept calling everyone who believes that the verse indirectly says muhammad wrote quran is a "liar" and is just basing these assumptions on their "low desires". AB, how do you expect to discuss and debate with someone when you do this? Yet you cry foul out loud when others do the same to you? Perhaps you're looking for a verse that says - muhammad wrote the quran - in that case we agree there is none.

It is simple, you don't believe muhammad wrote quran by his hand, I do. That one verse (294 to me is clear cut, to you it's not. I cannot push you or force you to see something you don't want to see. So we can leave it at that. In the end, does it really matter? I mean, think about it. Do the two parties believe that quran is muhammad's concoction? No. Do we both believe quran is God's words. Yes. So how about sitting on that common ground and discuss like human beings, like muslims. handshake

Peace

unknownuser

Peace AB, Peace.

Salam Zenje

.First of all I just wanted to say, I wrote some points on page 1 yesterday and when I came back to this thread late last night, it was 5 pages long. If you missed that in my post then here it is.

ok

Secondly, I pointed out that whatever I would have replied, Tanveer said it, hence the gratitude sent in his direction. But you seemed to have missed that also. Yet, you didn't reply to his point, even after he repeated it. You kept replying others, so I know you saw it, whether you read it or not, I cannot say.

as I said I do'lt reply to him because we crossed before and I decided that I will never reply to his arguments due to the fact that I believe that he maniplulates the Arabic language due to his lack of knowledge in it, if the truth hurts then I'm sorry, this won't stop me from saying it, he just expresses his views, I will express mine and the public decide.

Finally I saw this morning that you have replied to the verse I was pointing out. But instead of explaining your point of view, you just kept calling everyone who believes that the verse indirectly says muhammad wrote quran is a "liar" and is just basing these assumptions on their "low desires".

well, I'm sorry again if the truth hurts, this is indeed how those who alleged that Mohammad wrote the Quran been described in the 254, you are just been touchy that's all, I still insist that anyone being you, my mother, my blood brother or anyone who claims that Mohammad wrote the whole the whole Quran with his own hands accoridng to 2948 is a liar, sorry again

Brother Zenje, we are not talking assumption in here, we need a verse that tells us what you claim

AB, how do you expect to discuss and debate with someone when you do this?

as I said bro, I will say the same to my father if he claims such unfounded claim and insist on it by lying about 2948 which says the opposite to the alleged claim

Yet you cry foul out loud when others do the same to you?

This is actually a lie, firstly I never cry, those who will cross the line with me I cross the line with them Tanveer did in the Muslim/Mumin thread and I replied back while the mods were watching and having fun I guess, I never go and cry to the mods on any board, on the other hand I know many in here and other boards who cried hard to the mods about me.

Perhaps you're looking for a verse that says - muhammad wrote the quran - in that case we agree there is none.

See, then what you guys claim is nothing but guessing and has to be classified as conjectires, sorry

It is simple, you don't believe muhammad wrote quran by his hand, I do.

fine, be my guest and I have no problem with that, but please don't say that the Quran said so because you agreed that there is no such verse that claims as such.

That one verse (294 to me is clear cut, to you it's not.

again the verse never said that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, in fact it denies that, firstly it says that Mohammad never wrote a book (any book) before then it added that if he does (i.e. wrote any book including the Quran) then the Kuffar would have doubted him, I.E. 2948 DENIES THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE THE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS

I cannot push you or force you to see something you don't want to see.

Likewise

So we can leave it at that.

sure

In the end, does it really matter? I mean, think about it.

That is a question I asked SC, of course it does not matter for me, and surely it is not important to know, however when I meet others who say that 2948 claimed that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands I have to interfer because 2948 DENIES THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE ANY BOOK INCLUDING THE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS, yet you and others claim that he wrote the WHOLE QURAN with his hands accroding to 2948

Do the two parties believe that quran is muhammad's concoction? No. Do we both believe quran is God's words. Yes. So how about sitting on that common ground and discuss like human beings, like muslims. handshake

Peace

Sure, sorry if I upset you with ny brutal honesty

Salam

phoenix1

Ahmed, if Mo didn't write it, who did?

unknownuser

Ahmed, if Mo didn't write it, who did?

I'm sorry I have to dismiss you because you are following the footsteps of the Kafirs on faithfreedom web site and clalled Mohammad Mo

you are dismissed

zenje

Peace AB,

as I said I do'lt reply to him because we crossed before and I decided that I will never reply to his arguments...
I did not know that. Also I haven't been following the muslim/mumin thread you talked about. Now I know your feeling on this issue, lets move on. )

well, I'm sorry again if the truth hurts, this is indeed how those who alleged that Mohammad wrote the Quran been described in the 254, you are just been touchy that's all, I still insist that anyone being you, my mother, my blood brother or anyone who claims that Mohammad wrote the whole the whole Quran with his own hands accoridng to 2948 is a liar, sorry again
This is wrong IMO. I think you know what a "liar" is. You don't know this of me. This is my understanding of the verse, hey maybe if you could explain it without those terms I might even come to a better understanding.

Lie = A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Liar = A person who lies.

Perhaps you're looking for a different word, but I take that word very seriously if someone accuses me of such. It's not about hurting my feeling, so saying the 'truth hurts', doesn't mean anything. Infact, if anything, THAT is a lie.

Quote from zenje on Today at 034647 AM
Yet you cry foul out loud when others do the same to you?

This is actually a lie, firstly I never cry, those who will cross the line with me I cross the line with them Tanveer did in the Muslim/Mumin thread and I replied back while the mods were watching and having fun I guess, I never go and cry to the mods on any board, on the other hand I know many in here and other boards who cried hard to the mods about me.
I take it you don't understand that phrase - to cry foul. So no need to call me a liar and jump to conclusions. This is the statement, on this same thread, that I was talking about...

Yep let's turn the subject to defame Ahmed, lol, I knew it it it will happen...
That's crying foul. I'm sure you've watched a soccer game (especially Italy in world cup), when they get tackled and the lie down on the ground showing their in lots of pain, when truly they're not. And not 2 minutes before he did tha same thing to another player. Yes, thats you crying foul. It doesn't mean you have actual tears, or that you went crying to the mods.

Back to the issue at hand...

again the verse never said that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, in fact it denies that, firstly it says that Mohammad never wrote a book (any book) before then it added that if he does (i.e. wrote any book including the Quran) then the Kuffar would have doubted him, I.E. 2948 DENIES THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE THE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS
How? Again, I can understand why you think the verse doesn't confirm it, but how does the verse DENY it? ???

You were not reciting any scripture before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

Here's my understanding - He could neither recite/read or write before this. Now (at that time) he can.

Let me understand your position first - (1) could Muhammad READ? After the revelation that is (I think before is clear). (2) Was quran written during his lifetime? Yes or no answer will suffice.

Thanks. peace

honor

Peace all,

The above is incorrect. The Qur'aan was in a book form (written AND compiled in book form) during the time of the Prophet. Please re-read the article I referenced earlier for proofs from al-qur'aan. Sister Honor's post indicates that she also has not read the referenced article which corrects some of her misunderstandings

http//free-minds.org/books/wadud_05.htm

Salam Tanveer,

Thanks for pointing out that article, I never saw it before. I read throught it and thought I would post some of the key points for othersthese are all points from the following article http//free-minds.org/books/wadud_05.htm)

..it is far from expectation that Muhammad did not learn writing after the first revelation instructed him to do so. In fact it is clear from the verse that follows that he remained unlettered only as long as the revelation did not come to him
"And you were not able to recite a book before this (revelation), nor were you able to transcribe one with your right hand in that case indeed those who follow falsehood have doubted." (294

Next comes the Quranic evidence that Muhammad himself used to write the revealed verses which he then dictated to others. Thus it is said
"And they (non-believers) say (these are) the tales of the ancients which he (Muhammad) has written down and which are dictated before him morning and evening." (255)
Here the word "Aktatab" is significant which means "to take notes especially when a second person is dictating."
Moreover the practice of keeping written records of revelation started centuries before the Quran was revealed. To reduce the verbal divine message into writing was not a new thing to start with.

Question If muhammad wrote them as they were revealed, how was it a book before he wrote it? You will see later that this article claims the quran was already a book, before it was written by Muhammad and his companions.

Thus the Quran says
"Mankind was one single nation and God sent messengers with glad tiding and warnings and with them He sent the book in truth, to judge between people in matters they differed." (2213)
"We sent our messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the book and the balance." (5725)
"And when there came to them a messenger from God confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the book, threw away the book of God (Quran) behind their backs, as if it had been something they did not know." (2101)
The holy Quran has used the word <Kitab 'book' for itself at so many places. Scattered written sheets of paper are never called a book. A book is a treatise written on a number of sheets which are fastened together. After 'Sura Fateha' the opening chapter, the Quranic text begins with the following verse-
"Here is the book, in it there is no ambiguity, uncertainty or psychological complex. It is a guidance to those who save themselves from the consequences of going against the Divine laws." (21)
At hundreds of other places the Quran has called itself a book in different contexts. The Quran is a book which is a collection of various "Sura" chapters. Thus in support of the truth contained therein, the Quran challenges the vain-glorious opponents of Muhammad who doubted the revelation of the Quran and said that he (Muhammad) composed the verses himself, in the following words
'Or do they say, "He forged it"? Say "Bring then a Sura like onto it." (103
"Or they may say, "He forged it". Say, "Bring you then ten Suras forged like unto it." (1113)
Again it is repeated
""Say "If the whole of mankind both civilised and uncivilised were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support." (178
Thus the whole world is challenged to produce a book like this and it has not been able to produce one. Its beauty, standard and purity is a proof by itself that it is a book revealed by Allah and compiled by one to whom it was revealed.

The Quran is a book which was not only written but also rehearsed side by side with its gradual descent. Thus it is said
"Recite from the book what has been revealed to you." (2945)
"And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the book of thy Rabb None can change His words." (1827)
But in spite of all this, when the non-believers persisted in their opposition to the Quran, they were questioned in the following words
"Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the book which is rehearsed to them?" (2951)
Again it is said
"Or have you a book through which you learn?" (6837)
It clearly indicates that Quran is a book which was written and compiled side by side with its revelation and that Muhammad and his companions used to read the book. The non-believers were asked whether they also get a revelation like this and whether they also write it down and then rehearse as is done by Muhammad and his companions. This also indicates that the verses of the book had a regular order and sequence, so they could be rehearsed by the Rasool and his followers.

So the book was already formed, and then inspired to muhammad and he then rehearsed it to his companions and then together they all gradually wrote down the book as it was inspired ???

Material used by Muhammad for writing the Quran-
The Quran points out that the book, the exactness of which is compared above with the controlled movement of the stars, was recorded by Muhammad and his companions, not on places of stones, nor on date-palm leaves, nor on pices of bones but on parchment paper.
In the verses given below five things are produced as a witness to support the truth that the way of life followed by non-believers shall bring destruction, and one of these five things is the Quran written on parchment scroll. Thus it is said
"By the mount (of Revelation), by the book inscribed on parchment unfolded, by the much-frequented house (Kaba), by the canopy of outer space raised high, by the ocean filled with swell; Verity, the doom of thy Lord will indeed come to pass." (521-7)
So far we have learnt from the verses described above that the Quran was present with Muhammad in the form of a written book, in a specific order and sequence, and that is was written on a parchment scroll.

So muhammad had the book, and then it revealed itself to him in inspiration, because at that time he neither knew how to read or write, but he could read the book by gods command, and then he wrote it on parchment paper? along with his companions?

We noticed above the measures adopted by the Rasool and his companions for keeping the written record of the Quran. Now let us turn the other aspect i.e. the learning of the Quran by heart. The Rasool was intructed, in the very begining of the period of revelation, in the following words
"O the creature of harmony and single mindedness in the ranks of your followers! Stand (to prayer) by night, but not all night; half of it or a little less, or a little more and recite the Quran in slow well arranged and integrated stages (so as to enable your companions to follow closely its sequences, deep meaning, significance, beauty proportion.)" (731-4)
Though it was the Rasool who was given this instruction in particular, in fact it was meant for the whole Muslim community who faithfully followed this practice. But as the volume of the Quranic text gradully increased and at the same time the responsibilities for the establishment and maintenance of Islamic Social Order increased, it was no longer possible to recite the whole of the Quran every night. So the Divine instructions for the recitation of the Quran were modified. Thus it is said in the last verses of the above -said chapter
"Your Cherisher and Sustainer knows that you stand forth (to prayer) nigh two - thirds of the night, or half the night, or a third of the night and so does a party of your companions. But Allah apoints the measures of day and night, and he knows that you are unable to keep count thereof. So He has turned to you (in benevolence) read you, therefore, of the Quran as much as may be easy for you." (7320)

How did the volume of the quranic text increase, if it was already in book form when it was revealed to muhammad?

Now let us recount the facts gathered so far, from the Quran itself, regarding the safety of the Quran

In the very first revelation to Muhammed, the importance of writing was impressed upon him, as a written document is much more authentic and beyond suspicion.
Muhammed remained unlettered only till the time revelation came to him.
After the start of revelation, Muhammed used to dictate the revealed verses to his companions immediately after they were revealed and this become a regular practice.
The Quran has called itself a book at scores of places and it is apparent that scattered leaves are not called a book.
The Quran is a collection of various chapters.
The copies of Quran were present with the Muslims during the lifeime of Muhammed and they used to read it by sight.
The material used for writing the Quran was large pieces of unfolded parchment.* (i)
The scribes to whom the Rasool dictated the Quranic verses were most honourable, and pious men of great integrity.
The Rasool and his companions used to recite the whole Quran every night which indicates that the words of the Quran had a regular sequence.
Men and woman learnt the Quran by heart and thus it was safety preserved in the memory of a vast number of Muslims during the lifetime of the Rasool.
Allah took upon Himself the assemblage, the correct recital and the explanation of the Quranic verses, by presenting a subject in various ways and different contexts.

It would be most helpful if you and others could help me to better understand, while I am not disputing any of this, I am confused by some of the author of the articles points. I am sure there are some easier explanations for me to understand by some of you

Honor

AaRoN

so you called me Ahmed Bigot and I have forgiven you, now you are calling me son, would that be a complemet and my lack of english made me think that it is mocking?

if you forgave me then why are you bringing it up again?

see, I have been to Mars because there is no evidence that I didn't go to Mars, hahahahaha

i will agree that you are a space cadet, i give you that

well, I responded the most on this thread, please get your mind right dad

what i don't understand is why you continue to use ali, pickthall, and shakir, yet complain how deficient these translations are. where's your own personal translation?

it seems you expend alot of energy quoting a translation and then correcting the translation after you have quoted it... it would seem to me that it would just be alot easier in the long run to make your own translation using the words as you believe they should be

unknownuser

if you forgave me then why are you bringing it up again?

That's an easy one

because you are continuing to call me names, sounds like you didn't learn from the first lesson when you called me Bigot

look stop calling me names and we can be pals

i will agree that you are a space cadet, i give you that

would that be the required evidnece that I have been to Mars?

what i don't understand is why you continue to use ali, pickthall, and shakir, yet complain how deficient these translations are. where's your own personal translation?

well, while I'm usning them, I'm still exposing their mistakes, if they they something right I would acceot it from them or from anyone for that matter, on the other day I had an intense debate on FFI regarding the alleged claim that the Quran considers Mary as part of the trinity, when I looked at many trnslation I found Y A was the correct one, so I used it.

however till now I have never seen and accurate translation to the whole Quran

it seems you expend alot of energy quoting a translation and then correcting the translation after you have quoted it...

well, you cosnider me hyperactive

it would seem to me that it would just be alot easier in the long run to make your own translation using the words as you believe they should be

well, if Allah wants this to happen, believe it will happen regardless I like it or not

Salam

AaRoN

look stop calling me names and we can be pals

does that mean i can bum a smoke?

well, if Allah wants this to happen, believe it will happen regardless I like it or not

maybe allah wouldn't mind if you took the initiative

unknownuser

Peace AB,

Salam bro

I did not know that. Also I haven't been following the muslim/mumin thread you talked about. Now I know your feeling on this issue,

Sounds childish but cool with me, I have no problem that others call me as such regarding this matter, I just took my decision not to exchange info with him ever unless the God wills otherwise

lets move on. This is wrong IMO. I think you know what a "liar" is. You don't know this of me. This is my understanding of the verse, hey maybe if you could explain it without those terms I might even come to a better understanding.

Fine, on the other hand I didn?t use the word liar with malice intent, for me anyone (including myself) who says things opposite to what the Quran says is liar, if you have read my comments you should notice that I said I careless about their intention if they do it deliberately or not

Lie = A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Liar = A person who lies.

I believe lies can be categorised, yes the above description is a lie however that is a type of a deliberate lie, there are many however who say a lot of things about Allah while Allah never said it, those humans don't think they are lying, Allah however descirbed them as liars in the Quran, this title (a liar) is valid to those who say about Allah what they don't know

For example we know that many Shiekhs, Mullahs, Imams and Muftis tell us everyday this is Haram and that is Halal, Allah on the other hand hand warned us from saying that regarding matters that are never sanctioned by Him, and He described those who do as such as LIARS, 16116

I?m sure there are many other verses that described humans as liars while the malice intention was not there.

Perhaps you're looking for a different word,

Well, I?m open minded to use another word if that will make you not upset, can you suggest one?

but I take that word very seriously if someone accuses me of such.

Then you have to take the message from your God very seriously that those who say about Allah what they don?t know are liars

It's not about hurting my feeling, so saying the 'truth hurts', doesn't mean anything.

Well, I was not hurting your feeling, but I know the truth hurts the feelings, including mine, it is all about those handling that truth, the majority of humans unfortunately can?t handle the truth

Infact, if anything, THAT is a lie.I take it you don't understand that phrase - to cry foul.

Ok

So no need to call me a liar and jump to conclusions.

I didn?t say Zenje is a liar

I said all those who say the opposite to what the Quran said are liars. If you say the opposite then my statement covers you.

This is the statement, on this same thread, that I was talking about...That's crying foul. I'm sure you've watched a soccer game (especially Italy in world cup), when they get tackled and the lie down on the ground showing their in lots of pain, when truly they're not.

I don?t do that

And not 2 minutes before he did tha same thing to another player. Yes, thats you crying foul. It doesn't mean you have actual tears, or that you went crying to the mods.

Fine, but again I don?t do your metaphor

Back to the issue at hand...How?

Sounds better to me

Again, I can understand why you think the verse doesn't confirm it, but how does the verse DENY it? ???

Of course the verse denies it, see the whole matter is this

If Mohammad was able to write any book and wrote the whole Quran then the Kuffar would have doubted that it is from Allah, so Allah is saying that Mohammad had never read nor wrote any book ?including scriptures? ?UNKNOWN? ?Nakirah? ?No Al?, ?No The?, because if he did then the Kuffar would have doubted that it is from Allah

Clear and simple and does not create any contradiction in the Quran.

On the other hand as sister Honor highlighted under the flawed understanding that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran we must end up with a pile of non sense that made her confused. I'm sure ikt should confuse others as well.

You were not reciting any scripture before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

The translation above is flawed, the verse never said any scripture, the verse said ?a book?, ?Nakirah?, ?Unkown?, ?No Al?, ?No The? and surely ?No Muddaf Ilieh (the only case to have a known nakirah without the Al?

?Min Kitab?, i.e. ?any book?, translating it as scripture is 100% wrong

Now let me just use it for now

See ? You were not reciting any scripture before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand.?, so if Mohammad was able to write any book including any scripture(unknown) ? In that case, the doubters would have had reason.?, i.e. reason to doubt that it is from Allah, i.e. Mohammad didn?t write any book including the Quran

Here's my understanding - He could neither recite/read or write before this. Now (at that time) he can.

if the verse ended without this bit, ? In that case, the doubters would have had reason.? then I may have given ground to your assumption, on the other hand having the verse ending like this ? In that case, the doubters would have had reason.?, clearly indicate the denial that Mohammad wrote the Quran.

Let me understand your position first ?

I stated my position clearly many times now

(1) could Muhammad READ? After the revelation that is (I think before is clear).

Even if he managed to learn how to read after the revelation, if he could not write then he is still an Ummi.

(2) Was quran written during his lifetime? Yes or no answer will suffice.

No one can confirm that (Allah only knows)

I lean to believe that the answer is, No

Thanks. peace

I guess we should leave it at that and let the public decide, better that we stay pals

Salam

unknownuser

does that mean i can bum a smoke? D

not sure really what the above mean, if it means having a cigi together then why not

maybe allah wouldn't mind if you took the initiative

The idea is there for years finding the time to do it is another matter, however I started to think to create an English Quran project on my web site and get all to participate then we create an online english version over a few years or so, my plan is simply to go through all tranlstions and pick the right one, if non is not right then the community should interfer and propose one then we compile verse by verse, I lengthy process I should say but sounds exciting, I might start making a blue print to the points that we should be aware of

Salam

siki

Ahmad very good idea, i have been thinking about it too. who could be a better person than you to start this noble project , MY prayers with you.
May God support you with a thousand angels angel (on line )

By the way , when i research some crucial point , i usually check about 10 translations, and over a period of time i have found SHakir's translation to be relatively better than the others.

peace

siki

unknownuser

Ahmad very good idea, i have been thinking about it too. who could be a better person than you to start this noble project , MY prayers with you.
May God support you with a thousand angels angel (on line ))

this is not a one person project, this is going to be a team/community project, no human is going to take credit for it inshaallah

By the way , when i research some crucial point , i usually check about 10 translations, and over a period of time i have found SHakir's translation to be relatively better than the others.

peace

siki

I agree, that is why I use his the most

Salam

zenje

Peace AB,

Okay, good let's get beack to the good discussion.

If Mohammad was able to write any book and wrote the whole Quran then the Kuffar would have doubted that it is from Allah, so Allah is saying that Mohammad had never read nor wrote any book ?including scriptures? ?UNKNOWN? ?Nakirah? ?No Al?, ?No The?, because if he did then the Kuffar would have doubted that it is from Allah
See, I don't understand what you said here. you keep saying this, but seriously, I don't know what you're saying. Believe me, I'm trying to understand. So let me break it down - First, you disagree that it's scripture, but rather book. Okay, I have no problem with that. So, you're saying that he did not write any book before. He did not read any book before. I agree with you if that's what you're saying.

See ? You were not reciting any scripture before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand.?, so if Mohammad was able to write any book including any scripture(unknown) ? In that case, the doubters would have had reason.?, i.e. reason to doubt that it is from Allah, i.e. Mohammad didn?t write any book including the Quran
Okay... the doubters would have had reason if he knew how to write before, yes?

if the verse ended without this bit, ? In that case, the doubters would have had reason.? then I may have given ground to your assumption, on the other hand having the verse ending like this ? In that case, the doubters would have had reason.?, clearly indicate the denial that Mohammad wrote the Quran.
Doh! You lost me there. This is the part I needed you to explain to me, I dont understand why you believe that if the doubters had reason then Muhammad couldn't write AFTER the revelation.

Here's my understanding - if someone tells you, you couldn't write before this... to me it means that now you can write... right? Okay, if I'm missing AB's point here and someone else can explain it, I'd appreciate it.

Quote from zenje on Today at 045702 AM
(1) could Muhammad READ? After the revelation that is (I think before is clear).

Even if he managed to learn how to read after the revelation, if he could not write then he is still an Ummi.
So I take it the answer is no.

Quote from zenje on Today at 045702 AM
(2) Was quran written during his lifetime? Yes or no answer will suffice.

No one can confirm that (Allah only knows)

I lean to believe that the answer is, No
Thanks. That clears some things up.

How do you translate 734?

I guess we should leave it at that and let the public decide, better that we stay pals
We can stay pals, that does not change, I'm just trying to understand from you what your explanation is. I'm not trying to prove my point or that I'm right, and you're wrong. I'm trying to satisfy my curiousity, and perhaps then maybe we can both come from this having learnt something, even if we still end up in disagreement about this issue.

PEACE.

siki

this is not a one person project, this is going to be a team/community project, no human is going to take credit for it inshaallah

Ahmad ! i think you missed ''' start ''''' in my post?

peace

siki

unknownuser

Peace AB,

Salam Zenje

Okay, good let's get beack to the good discussion.

Sure

See, I don't understand what you said here. you keep saying this, but seriously, I don't know what you're saying. Believe me, I'm trying to understand.

Cool, let?s try an break 2948 into further details

So let me break it down - First, you disagree that it's scripture, but rather book.

No entirely accurate, let me bring the verse again and explain it to you

And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.

(4

The first part ? ?, ? And you did not recite before it?, the damir ?Ha? translated as ?it? in the word ?Qablihi? is referring to the Quran
The second part ? ?, i.e. ?a book?, i.e. any book (unknown)

The two parts together will be like this literally ?you were not reading any book before the Quran?

As you can see we have the words ?Ma Kunt? as the denial words, the action denied is reading any book, and the time for the action is before the Quran, this constitutes a complete sentence in Arabic

What comes after is another piece of information that has nothing to do with the time of not being able to read the Quran, i.e. the words ?Qablihi? only applies to the reading of any book, it does not apply to the writing as I will confirm right now

-> The third part is like this ? ?, i.e. ? , nor did you transcribe one with your right hand?, is independent from the word Qablihi, i.e. the timing of the word Qablihi does not apply to this denial, the denial in here is specific to the Quran actually this is because of the Damir ?Ha? in the word ?Takhotuh? is referring to the Quran and not the ?a book?, if it was referring to a book as the word ?Yatlu? then the Ha should never be there, i.e. the second denial in this part is specific to the Quran and is independent from the word Qablihi, i.e. even after the Quarn he did not write it down.

The proper translation according to the Arabic sentences structures and grammar in those three parts should be as follow

?you were not reading any book before the Quran, and you do not write the Quran with your right hand?

-> The last part goes like this ? ?, i.e. ? , for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.?, i.e. if any of these two things 1) the prophet read any book before the Quran, 2) the prophet was the one who was writing the Quran, was true then the Kafiroon would have doubted that it is from Allah,

Of course if I?m a professional writer then one day I told you here is a book from God that I received, then you read it and find it amazing, there is no doubt that you will doubt that I wrote it myself because I?m a professional writer, in the case of the Quran however if the prophet was involved in any way in documenting the Quran, it would have been a massive blow to Islam from its enemies because it is going to be hard to refute that Mohammad was not the author, indeed even while the whole world know well from the history that Mohammad didn?t know how to write they still allege that Mohammad wrote it, up to this day and this hour every day on FFI and other places, they even say as you know that he copied it from the Bible, while the idiots miss that there was no Arabic bible until at least 200 years after Mohammad death, yet the same verse 2948 denied that he was reading any book before the Quran (I.E Mohammad could have not taken content from the Bible), SEE HOW ALLAH IS REFUTING THE ENEMY UP TO THIS HOUR, this is because Mohammad did not write the Quran nor read any book before the Quran.

The tom and jerry argument presented by Tanveer about the prophet signing a treaty is really a laugh because firstly he exposed his desperation by resorting to the corrupt hadith to support his allegation, secondly the hadith does not tell us that the Quarn was written in full by Mohammad.

Now Mohammad may have learnt reading and writing after the Quran, I have no problem with that but it will still classified as conjectures at my end, on the other hand I?m sorry I can?t acceot that he wrote the Qiran because 2948 denies it

Okay, I have no problem with that. So, you're saying that he did not write any book before. He did not read any book before. I agree with you if that's what you're saying.Okay...

I like to say it precisely then

2948 told us that Mohammad was not able to read a book before the Quran, i.e. He was not able to write either, this is because anyone who can?t read must not be able to write, it is plausible vice verse, I.e, you can read while not write, but your can?t write while not reading and that is up to the Quran revelation
2948 also denied that Mohammad write the Quran with his hand
If any of the above two was true then the Kafiroon would have doubted that the Quran is from Allah.
I don?t know if Mohammad learnt how to read and write before his death

the doubters would have had reason if he knew how to write before, yes?Doh!

And after, because the Quran was revealed in a period of many years, at least 20 years, so during those years if Mohammad was involved ever in writing the Quran, the same argument presented by Allah in 2948 must be valid, i.e. they would have doubted him. i.e. it never happened, that is why it was excluded from the word Qablihi as you see in 2948

You lost me there. This is the part I needed you to explain to me, I dont understand why you believe that if the doubters had reason then Muhammad couldn't write AFTER the revelation.

Exacrly and I hope I explained enough above

Here's my understanding - if someone tells you, you couldn't write before this... to me it means that now you can write... right? Okay, if I'm missing AB's point here and someone else can explain it, I'd appreciate it. So I take it the answer is no.Thanks. That clears some things up.

The argument is invalid because the word before does not apply to the writing, it was a new sentence and this is obvious that thew word Qablihi came after the word read, if the verb of writing is included then it should be without the Ha in ?Takhutuh?

How do you translate 734?

Rattil Al Quran Tartila, does not actually mean to read from a book named Al Quran, it can simply means reciting it from memory in the most proper manner, the Prophet for sure did that during his salat and at dawn all the times

Even if I accept that it means read the Quran the best way (as reading from a book), then it has nothing to do with writing the whole Quran with his own hand still, which was explicitly denied in 2948

We can stay pals, that does not change, I'm just trying to understand from you what your explanation is. I'm not trying to prove my point or that I'm right, and you're wrong.

Nor I?m trying to prove you wrong, I?m saying the truth as far as I can see it and I know well that I will be held accountable by Allah

I'm trying to satisfy my curiousity,

The issue is not important to me and you as both of us stated. Me and you know well that the Quran is from Allah

and perhaps then maybe we can both come from this having learnt something, even if we still end up in disagreement about this issue.

PEACE.

As I said, I?m happy to accept that Mohamad may have learnt how to read and write books after the Quran, there is nothing that refutes that, however 2948 refutes that Mohammad wrote the Quran with his own hands

Salam mate

unknownuser

Ahmad ! i think you missed ''' start ''''' in my post?

peace

siki

sorry, writing too much, I have to have a nap

Thank you very much, you can be part of it if you wish, I have not got it start it yet, possibly within a week to 10 days

salam