Muhammad Wrote the quran

zenje

Peace nerspi,

peace
do you thing God would allow spelling errors in the qur'an? don't you think He would've said something to Muhammad? same way He told him about the thing with his wife.

Just so I undertsnd your point, God would keep pointing these mistakes, be they grammar or whatever, through the years... but keep muhammad illiterate? I don't know about you, but it makes more sense to me that he didn't know how to read and write before the revelation, and then he learnt. How hard is that? If any ordinary man from a village in Africa can learn to read and write at over the age of 40, I don't see why this messenger of God couldn't.

Peace.

nadeem

Peace,

It was also a well known historical fact that Muhammad was a successful merchant before his call as a messenger prophet. As a matter of necessity, he obviously knew how to count. During his time, the numeral system as we know it today was not in use. The numerals that we use today, known as the Arabic numeral system, were invented after Islam. Historically, letters were used to represent numbers before the numeral system was invented. This is true in all Semitic languages such as Arabic and Hebrew, and other languages as well. For example, the Roman numerals came from the Roman alphabets. Therefore, since Muhammad knew how to count numbers as a merchant, he should also know how to read and write a transaction. This is a reasonable enough argument.

Excerpt from http//19.org/index.php?id=17,29,0,0,1,0

Nadeem

Samia

peace
do you thing God would allow spelling errors in the qur'an? don't you think He would've said something to Muhammad? same way He told him about the thing with his wife.

And what was the role of the prophet then vis a vis the documentation of the quraan? Jibrael dictates him, he dictates the writers and God corrects the errors? All this so that he does not learn how to read and write during 23 years of revalation? This should mean that there is something wrong with being literate because the prophet does not want to be literate. He is our example. Does this mean we should not learn how to read or write?

phoenix1

peace!

2948 You were not reciting any book before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

now, my question is, is "al kitab" referring to the quran here? or to the "universe?" I think it's the latter.
I also think that when the quran says "you," it is talking to the believer, and not to the prophet.
In the verses preceding 2948, it mentions that the heavens and the earth contain god's signs, and those who reject the revelations are bad (or something to that effect). I think that the "revelations" are God's "signs" (ayat means "sign" not "verse&quot in the "heavens and the earth."
So, what that quoted verse is saying is that we didn't "read" anything before this (we were ignorant), but we didn't write anything ourself either. If we did write something, the doubters would have a reason because then what do they follow? what we wrote? or what God wrote? point is, we can't write anything for ourselves. God is the only one who can create a universe such as this and its laws. So the doubters have no reason.
That's me theory.

This is something Kyle posted that I liked, in response to mq's question.

mq I don't find any reference from AlQuraan on your claim. Please do quote with the reference.

Kyle What is the "Al Quraan" that you are referencing? The word "quran" means "reading". That which is "read" is the entire visible Universe, which is truly an illusion. From time to time, human beings reach thier Divine Potentials and recieve direct inspiriation from God within. Then this is written down on pages. At no point is there the instruction to NAME certain pages "Al Quran".

There are only writings by humans, MANY OF THEM, which we must listen to and follow the BEST, and the BEST is decided by debate(hajja) and verification.

TAJ posted

What you are saying makes a lot of sense, Kyle. Al Kitab or Al Kitaab can mean the Laws of the Creation (the Universe included). It is what we call in Arabic = Nawamees Al Kown or Nawamees Al Khalq = the Laws of the Creation (the Universe included) that God has set in A Quranun Majeed in A Lawhin Mahfoothe = A Glorified Reading in a Safely Guarded Tablet. The Universe is part of Al Kitaab that is surely a Hudan = Guidance for the Considerate/the Watchful/the Thoughtful , those C/W/T who would look into/"read" the limitlessly, endlessly, the perfectly built Universe and be breathlessly taken by it. The C/W/T who would never stop learning and the more they learn the more their faith in God grows. We hear of some people who have flushed that which we have now as "Al Quran" down the toilet, but Allah comforts the C/W/T by saying that Al Quran is Securely Guarded . The Word of Allah is not for humans to mess up with no matter how hard they try.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10045.0

What we are reading, what Mo read, was the laws of the universe, which are everywhere, which are fully detailed, and which can never be destroyed nor recreated by mankind.

And about Muhammad himself, going by what Ayman has written about him, it seems that the image of him from the Hadith cannot be trusted, if he existed at all.

unknownuser

Peace all,

Thanks AB for taking the time to write a concise explanation. I think I understand now, atleast better than before what you're trying to say.
Having looked at both arguments, it is my understanding that Muhammad could not and did not read or write any book (scripture or otherwise) before quran. However, after the revelation, he gained these skills. Not that this is my reasoning, it boggles the mind that a 'messenger' of God was not able to read or write the scripture revealed through him. The emphasis on the pen/writing and reading in quran is enough to convince me that a messenger of God would atleast have those basic skills, practice what you preach, so to speak.

PEACE

Salam bro

Fine, but is there any laws tat the messneger should be the one who writes the scriptures?

we don't even know if Moses wrote the Toarah, do you know?

How about Jesus writng the Injil, do you know if he did?

the point is this regardless the prophet learnt how to read and write later in his life or not, the Quran was clear that he never wrote the Quran

The history records also confirms that the prophet didn't write the Quran

see we only have too sources of information

a reliable source (The Quran)

a corrupt source (The history)

in both sources we have never heard or read that the prophet wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, this was planned according to Allah plan of course

Salam

unknownuser

You're right. I knew you would know that. I just wonder what it is called in Arabic. Is it not (khaT)? Isn't it the verb used in this verse?

possibly Khattat

their job is to draw, I knew a few myself but they know how to read for sure

nerspi

peace

Peace nerspi,Just so I undertsnd your point, God would keep pointing these mistakes, be they grammar or whatever, through the years... but keep muhammad illiterate? I don't know about you, but it makes more sense to me that he didn't know how to read and write before the revelation, and then he learnt. How hard is that? If any ordinary man from a village in Africa can learn to read and write at over the age of 40, I don't see why this messenger of God couldn't.

Peace.

i didn't say muhammad was iliterate. i meant if he didn't know and if he had to tell it to others and if they made mistakes, then i think God would tell that to muhammad.
it does say that before the revelation he couldn't write, but after... he could have.

i think he did know how to write or read, nadeem made a good point, if he was a merchant he needed to know how to write and read.

And what was the role of the prophet then vis a vis the documentation of the quraan? Jibrael dictates him, he dictates the writers and God corrects the errors? All this so that he does not learn how to read and write during 23 years of revalation? This should mean that there is something wrong with being literate because the prophet does not want to be literate. He is our example. Does this mean we should not learn how to read or write?

if there were errors, but i think they would be careful when writing it.
but i'm sure muhammad wrote it himself.

and doesn't it say somewhere that God will make him to not forget the message he is receiving?

unknownuser

Since both (Muhammad) and (rasoul) are both ms, I agree it is a bit ambiguous.

How about verse 1330

Your example is not bad at all, but you can see that the word Qabl is in the smae sentence as Ummah

in 2948 there was a new sentence separated by a WAW

if the reading and writing should be controlled by Qabl then the verse should be as follow

Wa Ma Kunt Tatlu Wa La Takhut Bi Yaminak Min Qablihi Min Kitab; Iz La Irtab Al Mubtiloon

if you say it like as as it appears in the verse

Wa Ma Kunt Tatlu Min Qablihi Min Kitab; Wa La Takutuh Bi Yaminak; Iz La Irtab Al Mubtiloon

Now let me ask you this

Do you agree that the word "Iktataba" means that you make someone else to write for you?

if you agree then even the Kuffar agreed that Mohammad could not have written it, rather he dectitated to someone else to write it

unknownuser

peace

lets look at the two options we have here

Muhammad could read and write.
so the disbelievers will say he wrote it, as in, he made it all up. but that can't be since there's information in it that nobody at that time could've known, things that we discovered in 20th century.
Muhammad could not read or write.
he told it to others and they wrote it down. but how could he be sure they're really writing what he's aying. simple. if they were adding or changing things God would've told Muhammad about it.

But there is one moe option

Mohammad know how to read but could not write

right?

unknownuser

Meaning of illiterate

(n) a person unable to read
(adj.sat.) ignorant of the fundamentals of a given art or branch of knowledge; "ignorant of God"
(adj) not able to read or write

Therefore, since Muhammad knew how to count numbers as a merchant, he should also know how to read and write a transaction. This is a reasonable enough argument.

Excerpt from http//19.org/index.php?id=17,29,0,0,1,0

Nadeem

Peace Nadeem,

Not necessarily, today there are approximately 800 million illiterate people in the world or 20% of total adult population which there are many merchants, sales, etc with no problems doing basic arithmetic or knowing the value of currency. Stats were probably reversed 1400 years ago with over 80% illiterate. Only a few had the privilege.

And what was the role of the prophet then vis a vis the documentation of the quraan? Jibrael dictates him, he dictates the writers and God corrects the errors? All this so that he does not learn how to read and write during 23 years of revalation? This should mean that there is something wrong with being literate because the prophet does not want to be literate. He is our example. Does this mean we should not learn how to read or write?

Peace Samia,

Many are excellent role models including both my parents even though they could barely read/write and certainly by today?s standards considered illiterate although not ignorant of God; actually my father was in the business of trading horses and traveling throughout the Mediterranean and my mom encouraged all of us to READ!

I?m of the opinion that Qur?an was dictated to capable scribes and easily checked for accuracy by simply having them read back what they wrote.

unknownuser

The answer to those who caimed in the past or nowdays the mohammad wrote the Quran is simply, Mohammad didn't know how to write to be able to write the Quran

this is enough to shut the enemy of Islam

indeed in many of my dabates on the anti Islam web sites, when they raise this argument, confirming that Mohammad didn't know how to write is enough to stun them and they just shut up, I have been through handreds of times

If Mohammad wrote the Quran then we will never be able to refute the enemy now days who claim Mohammad wrote the Quran

Plain and simple

now for those who says Mohammads wrote the Quran, let me assume that it is (remember we don't even have any evidence that he learnt to write) but let's just assume it for now

what it will lead to exactly other than the enemy of Islam nowdays will insist that he wrote it and we must of course agree with them

see

unknownuser

Meaning of illiterate

(n) a person unable to read
(adj.sat.) ignorant of the fundamentals of a given art or branch of knowledge; "ignorant of God"
(adj) not able to read or write
Peace Nadeem,

Not necessarily, today there are approximately 800 million illiterate people in the world or 20% of total adult population which there are many merchants, sales, etc with no problems doing basic arithmetic or knowing the value of currency. Stats were probably reversed 1400 years ago with over 80% illiterate. Only a few had the privilege.
Peace Samia,

Many are excellent role models including both my parents even though they could barely read/write and certainly by today?s standards considered illiterate although not ignorant of God; actually my father was in the business of trading horses and traveling throughout the Mediterranean and my mom encouraged all of us to READ!

I?m of the opinion that Qur?an was dictated to capable scribes and easily checked for accuracy by simply having them read back what they wrote.

Thanks bro for you strong points you made

indeed I know many who don't know how to read nor write and are successful business man

this argument that he was a business man and must have known how to read and write is so Tom an Jeryy style argument bro

Salam

unknownuser

Peace all,

The argument that because the Prophet dictated al-qur'aan to others and others wrote it down, therefore it could not have been authored by him, is not valid.

You can write a book with your hands and be its author OR you can dictate a book to others and have others write it down and still be its author. In both cases the doubters will have doubts.

But if one never knew how to read or write a book, and then suddenly one is reading and writing a book and saying it is being revealed from a Higher Authority who taught one how to read and write, then the doubters would not have reason to doubt.

unknownuser

Peace Samia, all,

And what was the role of the prophet then vis a vis the documentation of the quraan? Jibrael dictates him, he dictates the writers and God corrects the errors? All this so that he does not learn how to read and write during 23 years of revalation? This should mean that there is something wrong with being literate because the prophet does not want to be literate. He is our example. Does this mean we should not learn how to read or write?

EXCELLENT POINT bravo

Samia

Your example is not bad at all, but you can see that the word Qabl is in the smae sentence as Ummah

in 2948 there was a new sentence separated by a WAW

if the reading and writing should be controlled by Qabl then the verse should be as follow

Wa Ma Kunt Tatlu Wa La Takhut Bi Yaminak Min Qablihi Min Kitab; Iz La Irtab Al Mubtiloon

if you say it like as as it appears in the verse

Wa Ma Kunt Tatlu Min Qablihi Min Kitab; Wa La Takutuh Bi Yaminak; Iz La Irtab Al Mubtiloon

You just don't want to own to your wrong grammar. That was your argument

this is because of the Damir ?Ha? in the word ?Takhotuh? is referring to the Quran and not the ?a book?, if it was referring to a book as the word ?Yatlu? then the Ha should never be there,

that the pronoun should not be there after an indefinite. Can you give any sentence where you do not need the pronoun as you claim?

It makes no difference if the sentence was negative or affirmative.

Wa Ma Kunt Tatlu Wa La Takhut Bi Yaminak Min Qablihi Min Kitab; Iz La Irtab Al Mubtiloon

Why should one be surprised at your wrong grammar if you think such a junk (quoted above) can be allowed as good Arabic!!

Now let me ask you this

Do you agree that the word "Iktataba" means that you make someone else to write for you?

if you agree then even the Kuffar agreed that Mohammad could not have written it, rather he dectitated to someone else to write it

I do not agree. I commented on this before on this thread.

Also, because "the kuffar are those who agree that Muhammad could not have written it, but rather he dictated to someone else to write it". You share the kuffar their conjecture, I don't.

Samia

Peace Samia,

Many are excellent role models including both my parents even though they could barely read/write and certainly by today?s standards considered illiterate although not ignorant of God; actually my father was in the business of trading horses and traveling throughout the Mediterranean and my mom encouraged all of us to READ!

To choose your role model is something, to be commanded/ advised by God to follow the steps of a prophet is something else.

I was also pointing to the alleged insistance of the prophet not to learn how to read or write, although the very first revalation to him was "Read in the name of thy Lord".

Samia

possibly Khattat

their job is to draw, I knew a few myself but they know how to read for sure

Yes , derived from the verb . And no, not necessarily. A calligrapher can "draw" any language, even hieroglyph, without knowing anything about it, just like my student, who is real BTW.

zenje

But if one never knew how to read or write a book, and then suddenly one is reading and writing a book and saying it is being revealed from a Higher Authority who taught one how to read and write, then the doubters would not have reason to doubt.
handshake

And what was the role of the prophet then vis a vis the documentation of the quraan? Jibrael dictates him, he dictates the writers and God corrects the errors? All this so that he does not learn how to read and write during 23 years of revalation? This should mean that there is something wrong with being literate because the prophet does not want to be literate. He is our example. Does this mean we should not learn how to read or write?
Thank you. This is exactly what I was saying. It just doesn't make sense, go through all the trouble, over the years, and use God as a grammar and spell check tool. nope

To choose your role model is something, to be commanded/ advised by God to follow the steps of a prophet is something else.
This is important, and I tried to emphasize it - We are talking about the messenger of God here, not just somebody who learnt to sell potatoes in the city market! By all means, kudos to them, for learning a trade for sustenance without having to learn to read and write. We're not talking about a guy who was given a bunch of books to distribute them, by mail or something. We are, however, talking about the messenger of God being given a serious duty that affects all of mankind until the end of time, this is a tremendous obligation. So, sure, God would not allow mistakes on the job, but for the same reason, God would not allow someone, even if to oversee scribes to write it for him, he should have the necessary BASIC skill to read and write. Imagine, if you will, an accounts manager who doesn't know how to use a calculator.

Peace

zenje

Peace AB,

Fine, but is there any laws tat the messneger should be the one who writes the scriptures?
Not that I know of.

we don't even know if Moses wrote the Toarah, do you know?

How about Jesus writng the Injil, do you know if he did?
I don't know, but in both cases I think they were able to read and write.

the point is this regardless the prophet learnt how to read and write later in his life or not, the Quran was clear that he never wrote the Quran
I believe the quran is clear that he did write, but thats just me.

The history records also confirms that the prophet didn't write the Quran
The history records are not in question here. They also claim he stoned people and was a brutal incompassionate person... but lets not get into that subject here, just an example.

see we only have too sources of information

a reliable source (The Quran)
Yes.

a corrupt source (The history)
Since this is not a reliable source and I don't follow it, then it is not an option in our discussion.

Again, AB, I say thanks for your patience and time you took to explain everything in detail. Even though I am in disagreement with you in this point, I hope you will still treat me as you brother in Islam. On the other hand, If in any of my posts, I have offended you or anyone else, it was not my intenetion and I apologize.

Peace be with you. peace

unknownuser

You just don't want to own to your wrong grammar. That was your argument

that the pronoun should not be there after an indefinite. Can you give any sentence where you do not need the pronoun as you claim?

It makes no difference if the sentence was negative or affirmative.

Why should one be surprised at your wrong grammar if you think such a junk (quoted above) can be allowed as good Arabic!!

I do not agree. I commented on this before on this thread.

Also, because "the kuffar are those who agree that Muhammad could not have written it, but rather he dictated to someone else to write it". You share the kuffar their conjecture, I don't.

Samia I don't have time to waste with you

I have preseneted all the arguments and on top of that there is nothing in the Quran or the History that told us Mohammad write the Quran, this is only a wishful thinking in your mind