Tasreef/Crossreference understanding of Jesus's deeds---Miracle belief rejected
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The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.
You never compare words of a king with WORDS of God! I can give you thousand examples where my words are my laws for me. It depends on your personality how much do you care about your words! My words are my laws for me because I never break my words. I cannot do against what I say. That is why God is always JUST and Trustworthy.
Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.
Thats why simple men are not god! You never compare men's words with God's.
The words Sunnat and Kalima if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law.
In the following example replace the words 'decree'/'decision'/'kalima' with LAW, what difference do you feel?
Wama kana alnnasuilla ommatan wahidatan faikhtalafoo walawlakalimatun sabaqat min rabbika laqudiya baynahum feemafeehi yakhtalifoona
Mankind were but one community; then they differed; and had it not been for a decision that had already gone forth from thy Lord it had been judged between them in respect of that wherein they differ.
11110 And we verily gave unto Moses the Scripture, and there was strife thereupon; and had it not been for a decision that had already gone forth from thy Lord, the case would have been judged between them, and lo! they are in grave doubt concerning it.
20129 And but for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Lord, and a term already fixed, the judgment would have been inevitable (in this world).
4214 and had it not been for a Word that had already gone forth from thy Lord for an appointed term, it surely had been judged between them.
All our understandings of the Quran depends on our concept of GOD. The concept of Kings and kingship has done the damage with the concept of God. A King is the most powerful so he can do anything, he can do whatever he says or he can do otherwise if he wants. For the majority of the people becaue God is higher in rank than a king, So God can go even farther. God has more right to go against His words than a King. And He has more powerful than a king to do anything as He wishes. So for majority of the people God is a higher version of Kings, a super-king. This is what we have been taught through our cultures. And this concept is so powerful that it don't let us reflect on this universe, even if we see how much consistent the laws of universe are and how much consistent is the Book of God. Still we do not reflect just because of our super-king concept of God.
With Respect, Hamsa
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Salaam,
To understand the whole issue on God's Laws, you cannot just focus only on the word SunnatAllah and Kalimat, you must investigate His Will as explained in the Quran and how it is expressed in the Universe. Then the issue becomes far more clear why I believe His Laws do not change. Also, why believe in miracles, as they do not guide, do not prove His Power as the Universe already does this, the Truth is His Sign and more importantly, when the Arabic can be approached far more logically?
It is not that God shows His Power through miracles, people demand them from Him. God shows His Power through Nature and its complexity
7185 Can they not see (and correlate what he tells them with) the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near (hence the time to make the right decisions is not unlimited)? What HADITH (besides the Quran), are they going to believe after him?
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how Allahs Laws operate in the Universe.) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they observe, and reflect upon Allah's creation of the Heavens and the Earth and wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14).
8817 Will they not, then, look at
- the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
8818 - And at the sky, how it is raised high? (Without visible pillars 132).
8819 - And at the mountains, how they are entrenched?
8820 - And at the earth, how it is spread out? (That you do not even feel the
sphere, nor feel its speedy rotations 3110, 395, 7928-30).
8821 (This is some evidence, O Messenger!) Remind them, for you are one
to remind.
Also how God's Will works in the Universe must be understood before we can understand these subjects further
Article God's Will in the Quran
And His Forces, the Malikah
Article The Forces of God, Malikah
- the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
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Peace be with you
The thesis on rejection of the miracle birth of Jesus and miracles performed by Jesus in particular and rejection of all miracles performed by the Messengers of God and also the rejection of miracles mentioned in the Quraan in general is based on the premise that ?Allah does not change His laws?. This argument is also used by few others at FM to reject miracles mentioned in the Quraan. The most quoted evidence in favor of this position is ?Allah does not change His sunnat? (Sunnatallah).Tanveer and Fahad and few others have refuted Arnolds theory quite strongly but I found they missed the basic premise this topic is based on.
The reason I write this post is to clear the misunderstanding on the theory that ?God does not change His laws?.
Lets analyze how sound Arnold?s Tasreef/cross reference is to arrive at the foundation of this topic that God does not change His laws.
Quotes by Arnold
I want you to take a look at how Arnold moves from sunnat and sunnattallah to way, decree, law, Law of God, God?s Law inpractice, kalimat, word, decree, God?s Law in theory and to law of nature without any cross reference.
The words in the Quran should not be spread like marmalade and certainly not the word ?Law?. In the Quraan each word has a particular and selective use and a purpose and is used very diligently to bring out the exact meaning. Law is a heavy word; more so in the Quraan. Simply, we can not even say something is forbidden according to our whims, imagine translating the words without connection as ?Law? without any support. When you apply the word ?law? in the wrong place it distorts the meaning and also it sounds as if that God has written laws for Himself and whenever God breaks these alleged self inflicted laws our boys holler ?Foul?. Now men have a control over God on what He wills and what He does. Clever isn?t it.
Let?s look whether sunnat/sunnatallah means laws/law of God.
Siin-Nun-Nun =
sanna vb. (1)
pcple. pass. 1526, 1528, 1533sinn n.f. 545, 545
sunnah n.f. (pl. sunan) 3137, 426, 838, 1513, 1777, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 3362, 3543, 3543, 3543, 4085, 4823, 4823
LL, V4, p 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164
From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmIf you check with the above verses the meaning of sunnat is way, manner, style. In 545 many make the mistake of translating as ?wounds equal for equal? whereas it should be ?in the equal MANNER?.
3 137
Yusuf Ali Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected truth.Transliteration Qad khalat min qablikum sunan(un), fa siru_ fil ardi fanzuru_ kaifa ka_na'a_qibatul mukazzibin(a).
17 77
Yusuf Ali (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
Sunnata man qad arsalna_ qablaka mir rusulina_ wa la_ tajidu lisunnatina_ tahwila_(n).33 62
Pickthall That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.Transliteration Sun natal la_hi fil lazina halau min qabl wa lan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_
35 43
Yusuf Ali On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil. But the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing) no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).Transliteration Istikba_ran fil ardi wa makras say yi wa la_ yahiqul makrus say yi u il la_ bi ahlil fahal yansuru_na il la_ sunatal aw walin falan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_ walan tajida lisun natil la_hi tahwila_
Please note the use of sunnat and sunnatillah in the verses and also sunnatal awwaaleen (the way the ancients) in 3543. Even Arnold translated sunnat as ?the WAY? in 3543.
To highlight the correct use of sunnat let me give an example.
?The mayor said We will lock up all criminals for a very long time. This is the way we will deal with the criminals and even in the past we have dealt with them in the same way. We will not change our way of dealing with the criminals?
The above quote is ?the way? certain mayor deals with the criminals. Can you call this law? Law is something far from this and the meaning does not even come close. The word ?Law? is a very important word we can not use it indiscriminately in every place as it suits us.
kalimah
The other word Arnold changes from ?Word? to ?Decree? to ?Law? and then to ?Gods law in theory? and ?law of nature? is kalima/kalimatullah.
Please check the following meanings.
Kaf-Lam-Miim = To speak, express.
kalimah n.f. (pl. kalimat, and kalim) - word, command, agreement, common term.
From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmI have not included all verses which uses this root and word so please check every use of this word in the Quraan.
11 119 Yusuf Ali Except those on whom He hath bestowed His Mercy and for this did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."
Transliteration Illa_ mar rahima rabbuk(a), wa liza_lika khalaqahum, wa tammat kalimatu rabbika la'amla'anna jahannama minal jinnati wan na_si ajma'in(a).
6 34
Rejected were the Apostles before thee with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them there is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles.
Transliteration Wa laqad kuzzibat rusulum min qablika fasabaru_ 'ala_ ma_ kuzzibu_ wa u_zu_ hatta_ ata_hum nasruna_, wa la_ mubaddila likalima_tilla_h(i), wa laqad ja_'aka min naba'il mursalin(a).
18 27
Yusuf Ali And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord none can change His Words and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.Transliteration Wa-tlu ma_ u_hiya ilaika min kita_bi rabbik(a), la_ mubaddila likalima_tih(i), wa lan tajida min du_nihimultahada_(n).
40 6 Pickthall Thus was the word of thy Lord concerning those who disbelieve fulfilled that they are owners of the Fire.
Transliteration Wa kaza_lika haq qat kalimatu rab bika alal lazina kafaru_ an nahum asha_bun na_r
To give an idea of use of the word kalima let me try an example.
?The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.?
Now is this law?
Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.
The words ?Sunnat? and ?Kalima? if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law. There are other words used in the Quraan for Law and I will not go in to that since its not relevant here.
Also it is absurd to use these two words to link "Law of nature? in to the Quraan without any support. The Quraan does not list out such Laws of nature or does not guarantee to safeguard such unmentioned natural laws.
Good refute to those who play with the Arabic words
Thanks bro
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Peace R Hamsa
Your reply clearly shows you can not even fathom the reason for the example of the ?king giving his word? which is to explain in the most basic and simple way the use of the word kalima in these contexts, which we are discussing, since brothers like you do not understand the use of these words in the Quraan even after reading many verses with the word Kalima and sunnat. The example does not compare God with the king or the mayor it is to make clear that Kalima and sunna does not mean ?Law?.
In the following example replace the words 'decree'/'decision'/'kalima' with LAW, what difference do you feel?
In your posts within 5 verses you have translated Kalima as decision, decree and word. And finally based on these rush to the conclusion all these mean Law. I am not ready to replace or substitute the words in the Quraan with the nonsense you propose.
?God does not break His Laws? is a general statement without the word for Law not occurring in any related verses in the Quraan in this context and without a clear definition and examples of ?these Laws? from you or Arnold.
If someone says Allah does not change His creation we can look up in the Quraan and find a verse such as 3030 which supports this argument to a certain extent. But we must remember we have very limited understanding of His creation and He says He creates what He wills. How He creates and what He creates is not something science has not comprehended fully. According to science none of this is created its all natural phenomena without clear answers. Importantly do not run to the wrong conclusion; Creation is not Law either. God says He created the first man (Adam) with clay/mud and then his mate and then created the rest of the mankind from fluid. So we know He has created man/woman in 3 different ways and then He says Adam is like Jesus. In the creation of both Adam and Jesus the mention of ??.He said to him "Be" and he was? 359 and ??He saith unto it only Be! and it is. (347) makes it different from the description of creation of the rest of mankind.
It?s strange that even after many of Arnold?s thesis and your posts not a single mention of the words Amr and Amrillah or kitab and katabllah which is of prime importance to this subject.
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Peace Brother Warner,
If Kalimah or Kalimaat cannot be translated as God's Laws then how would you explain verse 6115. And also according to my understanding Quran is a book of Laws of God for human beings.
And also our understanding of Quran depends on our concept of God.
Hamsa
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Peace,
Doesn't matter if you translate it as Decree or Law, as God DECREED that Gravity should have a certain value, God DECREED that water should have a certain value.
It all comes down to that God doesn't change the way He handles His Ways in the Universe and He doesn't alter His Decrees, which include all the values in the Universe.
So this whole argument is nonsense. This concept can only be understood when looking at several subjects in the Quran, and not just 3 verses.
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Peace Warner, all,
God says He created the first man (Adam) with clay/mud and then his mate and then created the rest of the mankind from fluid.
This is false. All of mankind was created from clay/mud/dust.
4067 He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo...
1837 His friend said to him, as he debated with him, "Have you disbelieved in the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then perfected you into a man?In the creation of both Adam and Jesus the mention of ??.He said to him "Be" and he was? 359 and ??He saith unto it only Be! and it is. (347) makes it different from the description of creation of the rest of mankind.
This is false also. All of life/creation exists is via the "be" command.
1640 It is Our saying to a thing if We want it, to say to it "Be," and it is.
3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!Doesn't this change the entire feeling of 347 - from Isa being different, to Isa being exactly like everyone else?
Peace,
Tay*edited to fix typo and add this note
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Peace all,
Arnold presented the following "proofs" that ALL laws of nature never change
634, 6116, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823
634 talks about patience of the messengers and their eventual victory over the rejecters arriving from The God, and this is the way/sunnah of The God He promises not to change. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
6116 talks about majority of people leading others away from God's path (sabeel Allah), nothing to do with ALL laws of God never changing !
1062 For God's allies, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
1063 Those who believed and were aware.
1064 For them are glad tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. There is no changing the words of God. Such is the great success.According to the context these signs talk about God's allies and believers never having fear nor grieving and their getting glad tidings in this life and the hereafter and thus refers to these words/promises of God never changing. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
1777, 3362 and 3543 refer to the sunnah of evil being given respite for a while and then destroyed and this way/sunnah of God never changing. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
1826 Say "God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of heavens and Earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally, nor does He share in His judgment with anyone."
1827 And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His words, and you will not find besides Him any refuge.According to the context, people not having any ally or refuge besides God, and God not sharing His judgment with anyone are His words/promises that will never change. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
3338 talks about the prophet doing whatever God ordered him and that being God's way with the people of the old. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
4085 refers to rejecters/disbelievers believing once they see God's might and talks about this belief after seeing God's might not benefitting them, and this is the way/sunnah of God that will never change. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
4823 refers to the believers getting victory over the rejecters who fought the believers, and this way/sunnah of God never changing. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
As all the readers can see, so far Arnold has not been able to give any evidence whatsoever from al-qur'aan of ALL laws of nature never changing. All he has been able to do is to twist and misinterpret "sunnah of The God" to imply what it does not imply according to the context of its usage in al-qur'aan.
As far as the controllers/malaika doing whatever they are commanded by The God (1649-50, 666) does not mean that the command from The God cannot change !
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Peace Tanveer,
So by your interpretation God only keeps His Words unchanged with His Promises on reward? Of course not, this is one of the examples of words/decrees He does not change. All workings of Nature are created through His Decrees and Words.
God said "Be, and it is" with the WHOLE Creation. Is "Be" not one of His Words Tanveer?
2117 The Originator of the heavens and the earth when He wills
a thing to be, He but says to it ?Be? ? and it is.673 And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth with a definite
Purpose (3191, 3827) Whenever He says ?Be!? it is. His Word is the Truth.
And His will be the Dominion on the Day the Trumpet (of Resurrection) is
blown. Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, for, He is the Wise, the Aware.As we know, the Universe is controlled by fixed Laws, these Laws were created through His Words "Be", and He does NOT change His words.
So He does not break His Laws as these are part of His Decrees as the Universe also follows His Deen, System of Law.
But this subject, as said before, cannot be understood only by focussing on a couple of verses. We must understand how His Will works, the conditions on Khalq and Amr.
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Peace Arnold,
He does not have to change His word "Be"; He can just use that word "Be" to form whatever new law He wants or change an existing law. The context of the relevant signs clearly tells us which words/promises He never changes. Also Word does not equal Law unless you insist on twisting His words
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A Law of Nature is a Decree made by Him, just like the whole Universe is called an Al-Kitab by Him. And we are discussing an interpretation on a subject here, and as I learned on this site to have patient and humbleness with interpretations, I suggest to be more patient with your ' twisting' accusations as you are very quick in throwing them around to people, which gives an idea your beliefs are infallible
And what you just said is contradicting to what Allah Himself says, He says He doesn't change His Words/Decrees, but now you say He changes with every "Be", this is inconsistent with the Quran.
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Peace Warner,
To understand this you must look at several verses to see it.
Planets and stars follow for example fixed orbits
2133 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the
moon. They swim along, each in an orbit.And these orbits were created through His Decree
4111 Likewise, He it is Who designed well the Sky when it was SMOKE/DUKHAAN (Nebulae of gas). And He said to it and the earth, "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We do come, obedient."
Thus the Laws that control the orbit fall under His Decree. This can be seen with procreation, how the Sky protects us against meteors and so on, all are created through His Decree. And we must observe Nature to see that indeed God does not break His Words of Decrees
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
Gods Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above
You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in
attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire.The Laws are so precise and fixed, He presents them as His signs of Power
2164 (Never does God propose blind faith.) Indeed, there are
ample signs In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the
alternation of the night and the day - and the ships that roam the
ocean for the benefit of mankind - and the water that God sends
down from the sky, thereby giving life to the land after it had been
lifeless - and in dispersing a great variety of creatures therein - and
in the currents of winds - and the clouds subservient between the
high atmosphere and the earth. All these are clear signs for those
who exercise their intellect. (The Universe is too organized to be
the result of an accident 673. Sama = Sky = Heaven =
Atmosphere = Canopy)And in many ways the Universe is presented as a Kitab, a vessel of information.
638 And there is not a creature in the Earth, or a bird that fly's with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
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My Reviewed Understanding of The Issue of Law!
Note There is nothing to be emotional. We are learning and helping each other to understand the scripture. The Book of God is like the universe and people may have different interpretations but still we can consider different aspect with an open mind like mature people. I hope this wouldn?t be a mere a hope.
So first of all, I myself has reviewed the situation again and would like to share my thoughts, if you brothers do not consider it as an attack, its just my understanding and hope you will help me.
What I have realised is what if we change our focus from God to the universe. I mean rather than asking the question that whether or not God can go against His laws we should ask whether or not anything in the universe go against the laws of God in the first place? If you do not like the term law, then you can say whether or not anything in the universe go against what God has decreed/ commanded/ or ordered it to do?
As the following Verse mentions 383 ?. all things in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly submit (aslama) to Him, and to Him they will be returned.
Everything in the universe, willingly or unwillingly serve/ submit to God. This is very simple verse, still we can apply two or may be more interpretations for example
- Everything in the universe is following the laws of God he has made for it to follow
- Everything in the universe is following what God has decreed/commanded it to do.
- Everything in the universe is following what God has inspired in it.
May be for you first option is out of question because of the word ?LAW? and may be you are 50% agree with option 2 and not 100% just because of the word ?Decree?. But you may/can agree with option 3 because of the word ?inspired? and why it is more likely for everyone to agree because of the following verse
Note Because of the word AMR in the verse I have included more translations (I have 16) to see its different meanings as I do not know much of Arabic.
4112 SHAKIR So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Sarwar He formed the seven heavens in two days and revealed to each one its task. He decked the sky above the earth with torches and protected it from (intruders).. Such is the design of the Majestic and All-knowing God".
Khalifa Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
Hilali/Khan Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.
Yusuf Ali So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
As you can see all of the above translators have translated the word AMR as affairs/duty and command/task/laws as per their understandings and beliefs. We can do the same.
Whatever the meaning we give to AMR one thing is clear that according to the above verses, everything in the heavens and the earth submit to God willingly or unwillingly. Whatever Allah has decreed/commanded for them they are following that. (I deliberately left the word Law even if it doesn?t make no difference to the understanding). And also we know that nothing in the universe go against what it is inspired to do by God because they are submissive.
And also the following verse which says that all things in heaven and earth do whatever they are inspired to do and they do not go against it
1649 And to God submit all those in the heavens and all those on the Earth, from the creatures as well as the Angels, and they do not yastakbiroon/show arrogance/go against his laws/go against whatever He has decreed/commanded them to do.
the next verse clarifies1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
Some more examples 1315 And all things in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly bow to Him (in obedience) (yasjudu)
From the above verse yasjudu means submissiveness and obedience of these things to Allah?s Amr or Command/affair/Law/decree etc. It is a fact that every object and every phenomenon in the universe is governed by certain laws. While I totally agree that it may be the case that science has not so far discovered all the laws that govern everything but one can also not deny the fact that so much we have found there is nothing that does not follow a law. What they call ?natural laws?, Allah clarifies to them that these are His Laws.
The submission of heavens and the earths is also explained in the following verse
2218 Do you not see that Allah is He, Whom obeys whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars, and the mountains and the trees, and the animals and many of the people; and many there are against whom chastisement has become necessary; and whomsoever Allah abases, there is none who can make him honourable; surely Allah does what He pleases.
Now I ask myself a question that can we figure out that in the universe different things what they are inspired to do and what are their duties assigned by God? And again Quran encourages us to to give a beautiful example a honey-bee what it is inspired and what duties are assigned to it.
1668-69 And your Lord inspired the bee build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you. Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.
So my humble understanding of this verse leads me to think that we can also find out about all other things what they are inspired to do and what their duties are assigned by God. And use them to take benefit as we?ve already been benefited by finding different laws of universe. Because God also says in the Quran that
4513 And He has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, all, from Himself; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
From this I conclude that everything in the universe has surrendered to God's will. Whatever laws God has made for them they are following it. Or perhaps if you want to say, Whatever God has commanded/assigned duties/given task to them to do they are following that. And they do not go against His laws. Whatever the laws we know so far we notice that they are consistent. Just for example what honeybee is inspired we found it consistent in its duties/tasks and so can you observe with all other things. And also we are encouraged to observe and know about these things, why different colors, the clouds, the mountains and how the earth is spread and so on throughout the Quran. 1736 also demands observation.
So my conclusion is if I could explain it well above is that when it comes to universe it doesn?t make no difference whether you take His words as Laws/decrees/commands/inspiration and
- Everything in the universe knows what to do 2441, 2116
- Allah has made laws/decreed/inspired for everything what to do
- None can go against His laws.
Peace be upon you, Hamsa
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Peace R Hamsa
Quraan is partly a book of Law. The verse 6115 says ?no one can change the Word of Allah?. God will not change His promise, word, way and a decree issued that does not say laws will not change.
1419
Yusuf Ali Seest thou not that Allah created the Heavens and the earth in Truth? If He so will He can remove you and put (in your place) a new Creation?Transliteration Alam tara annalla_ha khalaqas sama_wa_ti wal arda bil haqq(i), iy yasya' yuzhibkum wa ya'ti bi khalqin jadid(iw),
Now, can you, Tay and Arnold tell God, ?Sorry God you can?t do that. You can not change Laws?. Allah says He create what He wills. Can you guys tell God ?Sorry again, you can not create what you will, you can create only what is within the law?.
Which book says where that law can not be changed? And natural Laws ?
The law concerning food for children of Israel and the law prescribed in the Quraan has differences. Is this not an example that Allah can change the Laws? Does God say anywhere in the Quraan that He will not change the law prescribed?
We are to derive our understanding of God from the Quraan and then reflect on nature for His signs and not to have a foregone concept of God as you propose and then try to understand the Quran.
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now, can you, Tay and Arnold tell God, Sorry God you cant do that. You can not change Laws.
Peace Brother Warner,
I am just trying to understand the issue and InshaAllah I'll learn from you a lot only if you want to hlep me. God bless.
You bring a beautiful verse brother, now our observation starts. Am in a hurry at the moment and just a small input now and inshaAllah will discuss later.
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Now we should observe that whether or not God has told us in the Quran why and how he removes people/nations from the earth!
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And also YAli's translation is full of contradictions especially on the issue of will. See its all occurances and compare.
I consider you brohters' efforts as sincere and hope you also not try to judge me.
With Respect, Hamsa
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Now, can you, Tay and Arnold tell God, ?Sorry God you can?t do that. You can not change Laws?. Allah says He create what He wills. Can you guys tell God ?Sorry again, you can not create what you will, you can create only what is within the law?.
Peace Warner,
This is exactly the misunderstanding that is repeated over and over. I DO NOT SAY GOD CANNOT CHANGE HIS LAWS, I SAY HE HIMSELF HAS SAID HE WILL NOT CHANGE IT. HE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE HIS LAWS AS HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL. BUT HE KEEPS HIS PROMISES.
This is the biggest mistake people make. They believe when God holds Himself to certain promises, it means He is not All-Powerful. NONSENSE
I believe, as the Quran tells us, that God can do everything He wants too, He can anything He likes, changes what He wantsa too, NOTHING is beyond His Power.
BUT, my understanding of the Quran which I have layed out, is that God says Himself that He will not change His Decrees in the Universe as this is not necessary, He has created endless possibilities inside the creation that expresses His Will.
Rasul, you made the mistake by using the words that God cannot change His Laws, this is wrong, He can change what He wants to when He wants too.
The question is not if He can change His Laws, it is, does He change His Laws? And if so, why?
The summary of my understanding is
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God is All-Powerful and can do anything.
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He says in the Quran that He does not change His Decrees.
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The Laws of Nature also fall under those Decrees.
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The Arabic gives far more possibilities then is traditionaly presented through Biblical influence. This is ignored because of the common belief that God's Power is shown through miracles.
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Miracles are not necessary as creation of the Laws is already the display of His Power, this is why He constantly refers to the workings of Nature as proof of His Power.
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Throughout the Quran we see God making Promises to us, God can break these Promises if He Wills, but He is the Most Trustworthy. So He bounds Himself, OUT OF FREEWILL AND POWER, to keep these Promises.
Warner, It is not a so difficult subject when studying the Quran, it has much more to do with our God's concept then the Message given. We disagree on the matter if the Laws of Nature also fall under His Decrees, I believe it is very clear they do.
I have given parts of my examples on how the subject is explained. But these are already not accepted by you or completely ignored, also my questions you evaded.
Thus I believe it is better we agree to disagree on this subject, as our concept of nature and God's Image and His Workings are completely different, and thus we can reconcile on the subject.
The Quran is a Divine Constitution for Mankind, showing Him the way to Reality. It explains God and His Workings, but sadly, rarely do people listen...
Kitab-ul-Taqdeer (Book of Destiny) by G. A. Parwez
THE CONCEPT OF ALLAHAllah has always been and will always be. He was Allah even before this Universe was created, He will be Allah even when this Universe exists no more. Therefore, ?Allah?s domain? is not only the created universe but also beyond. This is what the Quran refers to as the two worlds of Allah - Amr and Khalq. Khalq is the created universe while Amr is whatever is beyond. (7/54)
Law pertains to the world of Khalq. Two examples are, the universal truths of ?Cause & Effect?, and any creation being dependent on its constituent material. Amr relates to creation from nothingness. His determination to create from nothingness and His actions thereof run contrary to natural laws like cause and effect, creation within the universe, procreation, etc. Amr is based upon ?Allah?s will?. (22/14, 11/107, 5/1, 22/18, 21/31). See 2/117 (below), also 6/14 and 30/11.
Takhleeq - ?Khalaqun? literally means to measure, to assess the balance and ratio of things. Thus ?Khalaq? means to make something with the right balance and ratio of elements according to a specific measure. The domain of ?Amr? (creating from nothingness) is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone. Material resulting from ?Amr? may be, and is, used in various proportions to create by Nature as well as Man. Allah is the best creator in this particular sense (Khalq - 23/14, 37/125). He also improvises (35/1), either by creating something for the first time (?Abdaa?) or varying an existing formula. GHALIB put it aptly .... (1) Also, IQBAL (2)
Characteristics of the Domain of Amr This is the initial stage of creation. The chemistry of it all is beyond human comprehension and consequently, unquestionable. Allah used His exclusive power and privileges to create things (from nothingness) giving them their particular characteristics (24/45). He simply exercised His ?will?. Man is told that the universe was created ?rightfully? (16/30) not wrongfully (3/19). It is upto Man to delve into the mechanics of it all to arrive at the ?rightness? of the universe around him. Suffice to say that the reality and function of the Domain of Amr lies outside the extents of human comprehension and its concept of ?cause & effect?.
Having created the universe according to His own will, Allah introduced a great change in this cosmic program. Now, He bound His Amr in LAWS. This demands intense ponderance.
TAQDEER
The Arabic word ?QANOON (ن (3) has not been used in the Quran in the meaning of LAW. It seldom appears even in contemporary Arabic literature. Instead, the Quran has employed a root more comprehensive than QANOON. It is Q-D-R with the basic meaning of a measure. ( ء means I measured that thing; estimated. ( ء means I measured the (one) thing against the (other) thing. ( ب means I made clothes for him according to measurements. Therefore, ?taqdeer? has the sense of something being fit to measurements. (ر is a model standard or measure. ( ر means He/It proved true to measure (expected standard). (ر is a person of reasonable average of height. (ر is a person who forecasts the yield possible from a particular corn field.
It follows, therefore, that (ر ?Qadrun? or (ر ?Taqdeer? means a measure or a standard; also, of something to be of the right measurements, standard and estimate.
Since absolute control is required to make something according to a particular standard, ( ء means I had control (and power) to make that thing according to my standard/measure.
Allah?s ?AMR? Bound to Laws
It has been stated that the ?Domain of ?Amr? functions under the absolute power and will of Allah. There are no binding laws. In the ?Domain of ?Khalq?, however, Allah?s will is bound by laws (33/38 Allah?s ?amr? was bound by standards & measures) and thus ?Allah set a standard to everything? (65/3)This needs illustration. Liquid water is transformed to solid at freezing point and reverses at a particular temperature. It flows downhill and adapts its form to the container it is in. High temperature evaporates water into vapor which, being lighter than air, rise up as clouds. At a set temperature, clouds liquefy back into water, which, being heavier than air, falls down as rain. These facts are the ?measures / standards of water?. Another example of the ?standards of water? is that in the right quantity, it is a thirst-quenching and life-giving commodity whereas in larger quantities it can even kill (e.g., drowning). A date tree yields fruit in years but banana takes only a few months. A cactus seed breeds a thorny, fruitless plant whereas a mango seed yields an exotic fruit.
Laws of Nature
It is not difficult to see, then, that (ر ?Qadr? of the Quran is nothing but the Laws of Nature. Therefore, 65/3 means Allah has set standards / measures to everything in the universe. These laws govern the creation, growth and death (or transformation) of all things. Consider the following from the Quran- Regarding the birth of a human child, it says that it starts with the semen being deposited in a safe place (the female ovum) and in (77/21, 22) it stays there for a known measure. Obviously, this refers to the period a fetus stays in the mother?s womb. (according to Nature?s law). The Quran goes on to say in 77/23 ? these measures have been set by Us and We are the best of standard setters?. Incidentally, this verse illustrates the meaning of ( ) i.e., the one who sets standards. A variation of this word (ر has been used as (ر in (25/54).
About the fetus it says elsewhere (13/ that occasionally a fetus cannot achieve its full and complete growth and that Gad has set standards to all things.
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About rain the Quran says (in 43/11, 23/1 ?and We bring down rain from clouds according to a measure?. Elsewhere (13/17), it says ?after rains, streams flow according to their standards.?
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Produce from the Earth is mentioned in (42/27) ?Its produce is according to a measure set by Allah?s will. ( is explained a little further on in this book). The four seasons for harvesting & farming are mentioned in (41/10) ?Allah has set standards for four harvests (of the Earth).?
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Summing up, it says about all universe in (25/2) ?He created all things and set a measure to them.?. More precisely in (54/49) ?Surely, We created everything according to a measure.? Special attention should be paid to two verses from Sura ?Al-Aala? ?Allah initiated all creation, then gave everything a suitable proportion, set standards to them and programmed them for growth according to those measures.?
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Let us now look at references where (ر is even more clearly used in today?s sense of ?Laws of Nature?. Even a school child knows about the Earth?s rotation causing day and night according to set laws. This enables us to forecast, with certain precision, sunrise and sunset. The Quran says in (73/20) ?Allah has set standards to day & night.? Also, about the moon (10/5) ?Allah has set stages for it.?
The meaning of (ر may be very clear by the following ?The sun is traveling towards its station. This is the measure set by the all-knowing and almighty (Allah).? Elsewhere (41/12), it talks about the heavenly bodies in general, and about stars in particular, and then says, ?These are the standards set by the all-powerful and all-knowing (Allah)?.
This illustrates then, that (ر means Laws of Nature and NOT Man?s destiny.
One may ponder here on the point that the above mentioned verses say ?Allah?s taqdeer? (standards set by Allah). Therefore, it will be factually erroneous to say ?Man?s taqdeer? because Man has not (and cannot) set standards to the universe.
The truth of the matter is that so many of our problems arise because of our misuse of words and their meanings. The only way to comprehending the Quran is to ascertain the correct meanings of its vocabulary, terminology and concepts.
These taqadeer (standards, measures - law of Nature) of Allah?s are pre-determined (it was done in the domain of ?Amr?) and they are ?written? in the ?book of Nature / Universe?. This is referred to as ?the clearly set book?. It says in Sura An?aam ?Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.? (6/59) That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there. (17/5 ((for anyone to read if they so wish)). This is physics (science). That is why these laws are called ( م in (15/21) and (15/24) i.e., laws which can be discovered. Adam (mankind) is said to have been given ?the knowledge of names?. This is nothing but the knowledge of the universe.
Laws of Nature are Permanent
Law is defined as If.......... then ............ alwaysA ?law? is different from an ?order? ?Law? is based upon its consistency (if you do this, that will ALWAYS happen). ?Order? is a decision. A master issues a variety of orders to his servants. One order may differ in kind from the previous one. Therefore, ?orders? are decisions which are subject to change. But when an order (decision) becomes consistent (with no possibility of change), it becomes law (unchangeable decision). Allah?s decisions about the universe (standards and measures) are unchangeable. The permanence of laws of Nature provides the foundation for the sciences. This ever-reliable foundation of permanent laws enables (?tawakkal? in the Quranic terminology) the earthlings to take successful trips to the Moon. In fact, the entire structure of our wonderful universe stands on the permanence, consistency and reliability of the laws of Nature.
Allah?s Word ( ه and Allah?s Way ( ه
Both of these expressions in the Quran have been used to mean Allah?s law. ?Kalima? is the formula (theory) while ?SunnatAllah? is the practical form the ?Kalimatullah? takes. Both of these are permanent (6/34, 6/116, 18/27 and also 10/64) for ?Kalimatullah? and (33/62, 40/85, 48/23) for ?SunnatAllah?. Not only are these laws permanent but they don?t even change course (17/77, 35/43)! It has been mentioned above that Allah?s ?Amr (will) becomes ( ا ?set standards & measures? in the created universe. This is referred to as ?SunnatAllah? in (33/3, i.e., it becomes unchangeable law.HAQ
We have also said earlier that according to the Quran Allah has created the universe with ?Haq? (productive, beneficial and realizable results). This purpose of the universe is mentioned in (10/82) ?Allah proves the validity of ?Haq? through His laws?, and also in (42/24) ?Allah, through His laws, removes ?Baatel? (the wrong) and establishes ?Haq? (the right).? This phenomenon (realization of beneficial & productive results through His laws) naturally requires eons (33/5, 70/4). But their pace can be wondrously quickened if Man joins in the action by studying the physical laws of Nature and adopting Allah?s laws for human society - (see ?Islam Kya Hai?? (What is Islam?) or ?Islam A challenge to Religion? by the same author for a detailed treatment of this point) The Quran says in (65/3) ?Surely, Allah sees to it that His Amr (Will) is realized. That was the purpose of establishing standards & measures for all things.The created universe has no freedom of choice Since Laws of Nature are permanent, the universe has to follow them anyway. All things in the universe do that faithfully (please see 16/49, 2/116 and 57/1).
Let me give you a summary of what has been said so far
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Allah has formulated and established laws for all things in the universe, exercising absolute control.
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The universe is bound to follow the laws of Nature.
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These laws are discoverable ( م by Man (2/34). The Quran summarizes this in (45/13) ?Allah has made the entire universe conquerable (you can harness it). There are clear signs in this for those who care to think?.
Allah bound Himself!
We have seen a great change in Allah?s great design of things; i.e., His ?Amr - absolute power and choice - transformed to building permanent Law of Nature. In other words, Allah bound Himself! Shocking, isn?t it? But, it IS true. We witness it routinely. For example, see (6/12 & 6/54) where He says ?He has made Rahma compulsory for Himself. (4) Also, see (10/103) ?We have the obligation to protect the convinced. (5) This has also been termed as ?Allahs Promise? in (16/38, 31/9, 31/33, 35/5, 40/55 & 40/77). Also to be noted is the declaration that He always does, and will, keep His promise (30/6, 3/193).Allah?s Promises
His promises are nothing but His laws and ?keeping promises? means the laws are permanent and consistent. The Quran contains a significant example of Allah?s voluntary adherence to His own Laws. One of nature?s Laws is procreation of animals and humans through the mating of a male and a female. The Quran rejects the Christian belief of the virgin birth (Christ being son of Allah) with a wonderfully logical argument. It says that despite being the absolutely free and all-powerful initiator and originator of the universe, He bound it and Himself in laws. The law requires a male and female for procreation. How can anyone be Allah?s son when He has no wife? (6/102). In other words, He would have broken His own law by getting Himself a son, but He did not!A criticism Answered
This gives rise to the argument that a ?law abiding Allah? ceases to be the ?all-powerful Allah?. But this is misleading. One does not cease to have power if one submits to a law voluntarily. For instance, if you are made to, against your will, have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, you are forced. But if you decide to do it, on your own accord, you are free. One who keeps promises and adopts certain principles in life, is not powerless. On the contrary, such a person is termed a man of honor, upholder of principles and reliable. Therefore, Allah doesn?t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn?t break laws. This concept of Allah comes from ?Din?.Religion?s Concept of Allah
The religionists cannot or will not accept this. The Allah of Religion as mentioned earlier, is a remnant of the early days of Man?s intellectual growth. Now, Man has come of age and the Allah of ?Din? can be appreciated. But, sadly, the religionists don?t want this concept to get popular as it threatens their privileged position of ?mediators? between Man and Allah. This allows them to exercise authority over people. For this very purpose, the clergy propagated the concept of autocracy and hereditary monarchy. They likened kings to Allah where both are bound by no law. People under the influence of such clergy and monarchy can only follow instructions, not observe any laws. Such is the religion?s grip on the human mind that even mutineers and freedom fighters like to see Allah as an absolute ruler, much in the mold of an earthly king! This dualism (to have a law-abiding human society and a lawless Allah) is the hallmark of religion. ?Ad-Din? wants to replace it with the monotheism of a law-abiding Allah and an equally law-abiding Man!.
Ghalib Using the simile of a veiled lady who is using a mirror to make her face up, Ghalib refers to the Creator who goes on to beautify the universe.
Iqbal The same idea is presented using a different simile of a hitherto not fully untapped plant of wine-bearing juice.
The Arabic word ( ) ?Qanoon? is commonly understood and translated into Urdu as ?law?. Note that this work was originally intended for an Urdu readership.
The Arabic work ?Kataba? literally means to write (here ?has written or wrote). Since writing makes something permanent, it is used to refer to a permanent decision (law). This is supported by the well known verse about fasting 2/183.
The Arabic word (ن ?mo?min? is popularly translated into English as ?believer? which, to the author, is not a true representation. Even ?faithful? does not carry over the meaning of mo?min. This very important word springs from the root a-m-n having the basic concept of peace of mind and heart resulting from being totally convinced of something because of rational knowledge. Hence the translation of mo?mineen as ?the convinced?.
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Peace Arnold, all
Rasul, you made the mistake by using the words that God cannot change His Laws, this is wrong, He can change what He wants to when He wants too.
It was un-necessary to mention this as I have reviewed my understanding of the issue of law. However, I would again say it is only our way of understanding different things how we perceive, for example
God has made some decisions for himself as well, and when I say
- God cannot be unjust.
You take it as
2. God is unable to be unjust.May be you consider it as
3. God can be unjust.Another decision of God for himself as you mentioned God has made Rahmah compulsory for himself. And if I say God cannot do otherwise, again its your way of understanding how you perceive it.
And ofcourse no one can ask God that why He made such decisions for himself/ for universe and all. We cannot ask God WHY doesn't mean we are unable to observe and understand the reseasons (WHYs) of these dicisions.
With Respect, Hamsa
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Dear Brother Hamsa
We are all here to learn. Even if we may have differences in opinions and understanding I learn a lot from the many members in this site. None of us are right all the time.
By this heated debates we learn a lot and it makes us to go read and understand the Quraan more and study verses in a way we never understood before.
I am sorry in the heat of the debate if I said anything unwarranted. I am moved by your sincerity and humility and that is something I learned from you today.
I use Y Ali or Pickthal since those are the 2 translations I have in my PC with the search function and extras. I do not agree with any translation other than the literal , with the Quraan as the dictionary and explanation. I try not to draw from post quranic sources.
Warm regards
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Salaam Warner,
We use mostly the same technics, but it is our mind that eventualy decides the interpretations. Discussions are always good as they make you sharp.