no miracles?
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It doesn't matter whether you master Arabic or you know nothing of it, as long as your prior text is immeresd in hadiths and fairy tales, and you insist on them, you will not unsersand anything.
peace
ok, but since there is more then one meaning for a certain word in arabic like with asa or other words and these translators choose a certain word like "cane" and "snake" or "sea" and "split" or "brought back the dead" so it would seem that miracles happened but arnold, and others that he listed, have translated it differently, they used different words to translate it.
arnold listed several meanings for the word asa there and many translate it as cane but he choose to translate it as conviction. and there are other words too, some translate a sectance "brought back the dead" but he chose different words so the sectance changed.
so is there an expert on arabic language who is not immersed in hadith who can translate the qur'an correctly? or am i gonna have to learn arabic myself to know what the actual message was?
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Posted in another thread of this forum titled "Muhammad's Miracles Fact or Fantasy"
What is a Miracle??? I mean to say your understanding of a Miracle?
A plane seen flying over the sky 1400 years ago may have been a Miracle but now it is not.
The person in suleman's time who had the knowldge of the book who could bring things within a blink of eye performed a miracle but today we know there is a possibility for it.
Muhammad Traveling with speed of light can be digested today it was a miracle then.
Some ancient greeks had contacts with their desciples through telepathy, they were considered to have divine powers, we can attain those powers by concentartion so no more a miracle.
Few years ago it was a fanatasy to travel to moon now it is a fact.Muhammad himself was a mircale (depending upon the definition of miracle)
So strong a personality he had, that no matter how you analyse him negatively or positevely he has made the greatest impact on human history.
An illetrate person who had followers some of them genius of their times, a person so confident in his mission despite all the difficulties achieving his goals.
Answer to could Muhammad perform miracles or not, will lead us no where
but it is a fact that his life is miraclous by any defination of miracle and those who think against it are living in the world of fantasy.Then again question remains the same, first we must decide what actually the "MIRACLE" is.
According to my understasndingA miracle is an unusual action or event that goes against the commonly observed laws of nature.
He threw down his staff and it turned in to a tremendous surpent."
" He took out his hand and it was white to the beholders."
" The leaders among Pharoah's people said This is no more than a clever magician."My Only question to those who say it was not physical is; then why did the leaders among Pharoah's said that "This is no more than a clever magician"??????
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Because the verses do not immediately say that, Asa means a lot more then staff, it doesn't say serpent, it only says the Asa became alive, which can even mean that Moses's conviction/Asa became alive.
Yad-Byado means white hand, but in classic Arabic this means something is very clear.
Sahara does not immediately mean magician, but someone who presents falsehood as truth.
You have to understand the Arabic to understand these issues, most translations completely fall short on these matters.
Also please read the whole thread before responding, so repitition of questions is prevented.
Your questions are answered here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14219.msg125783#msg125783
and here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13826.msg126162#new
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A miracle is an unusual action or event that goes against the commonly observed laws of nature.
Yes you are right! A Miracle is a contradiction in the Al-Kitaab Universe.
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Peace
Was Jesus sent to bunch of Art students from New York.
Why would suddenly sometimes in the middle of the conversation God, Messengers, disciples and even others start talking in sentences in which every word is a metaphor.The Quraan says Messenger is not a poet and the message is not poetry.
Do you guys talk to each other in complete metaphors.Can anyone give an example.
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no one has to talk in complete metaphors, but at least i can understand a metaphor when i hear or see one.
physical message or spiritual message?
physical if you are dirty then wash yourself
spiritual if you are a low state then elevate yourself
physical before you go into the holy city shave your head
spiritual you will be unable to enter the system until you clear your mind
if god isn't physical then why would his message be?
anyways it's not up to me to decide for people... enjoy whatever decisions you make for as long as it lasts )
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Both
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i was under the impression that this one is an illusion )
1585 We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them but in truth (Haq).
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wow some verse choppin goodness right there
you think that one verse matters up against the myriad of others that mention this physical world as an illusion?
this is where you have to be careful and not take one verse and go all buckwild and jump to conclusions
if it were an illusion would it make it less "haqq" to you?
seriously.
feel free to take everything i say completely out of context, not my concern.
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wow some verse choppin goodness right there
you think that one verse matters up against the myriad of others that mention this physical world as an illusion?
this is where you have to be careful and not take one verse and go all buckwild and jump to conclusions
if it were an illusion would it make it less "haqq" to you?
seriously.
feel free to take everything i say completely out of context, not my concern.
Peace Brother,
Please dont feel that as an attacke. Just explain if I have understood the verse wrong.
Truth speaks out humbly. Peace be upon you peace
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i don't take it as an attack, i just think you need to revise your method of taking a statement someone makes and turning on your search program and then pasting the first verses you find into posts... everyone needs to avoid this practice in my opinion.
i don't know if i agree with truth speaking out humbly either... i recall reading somewhere once that truth smashes falsehood
truth is all up in your face
but that's just me )
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i don't take it as an attack, i just think you need to revise your method of taking a statement someone makes and turning on your search program and then pasting the first verses you find into posts... everyone needs to avoid this practice in my opinion.
i don't know if i agree with truth speaking out humbly either... i recall reading somewhere once that truth smashes falsehood
truth is all up in your face
but that's just meI would still like you to explain that right concept of that verse and what is illusion accroding to you.
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gh r w r
the root gh r starts on page 21 of volume six
pretty much has to do with illusion, falsehood, deception, etc.
m t ' on page 216 of volume 7
w ma al hyw~ al dnya ila mt' al ghrwr would be something along the lines of "the lower existence (is) nothing but (a) draw (of) the illusion"
oh man firefox crashed and i almost lost all of this so consider yourselves lucky
thank god for session restore
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Raj-ah
My Only question to those who say it was not physical is; then why did the leaders among Pharoah's said that "This is no more than a clever magician"
Arnold
Because the verses do not immediately say that,
Say What? They immediately say what I quoted above
107He threw down his staff and it became alive.
108And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers
109The leaders from among the people of Pharaoh said "This is a knowledgeable magician!"Arnold
Your questions are answered here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14219.msg125783#msg125783
I guess you are fond of providing links of your articles/posts without actually raeding them twice. (sorry for that)
but in this particular link you have avoided 7109, why?????Your second link says this
Laws of Nature are Permanent
Law is defined as If.......... then ............ alwaysA ?law? is different from an ?order? ?Law? is based upon its consistency (if you do this, that will ALWAYS happen). ?Order? is a decision. A master issues a variety of orders to his servants. One order may differ in kind from the previous one.
Again not fully comprehending what I wrote
I highly lighted the word "Commonly observed"
meaning to say that LAws of Allah are permanent but When ever we see any deviation from our "commonly" observed
law it seems to us as a Miracle. We even in this scientific era have very limited knowldge of these laws but that does not mean that these laws do not exist, since some of the happenings we cannot explain due to our lack of knowldge seem to us to be a miracle but as soon we learn about the laws according to which the mircale took place it no more is a miracle.Therefore the question at the above remains un answered?
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Sahara does not immediately mean magician, but someone who presents falsehood as truth.
Peace Ra-jah,
I did not avoid 7109, you didn't understood my answer. This is why you must understand Arabic at least a bit to understand the arguments involved.
109 The nobles/chiefs from Pharaoh's nation said "That truly that (is a) knowledgeable alsahiru."
Alsahiru/saharin/alsahara and sihr comes from sahara/sahira and means to gild, fascinate, bewitch, wheedle, turn anyone from enchant, practice sorcery, hoax, involve in trouble, deprive of understanding, fraud, illusion.
Sihr means witchcraft, sorcery, eloquence, seduction, falsehood, deception, turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner, anything the source of which is not quite visible, showing off falsehood in the form of truth, mischief.
So an Al-Sahiru, normally translated as magician, just means "one who presents falsehood as truth". Thus it doesn't need to do anything with 'magic' at all.
This is the traditional translation based on Hadith and thus the Bible
7107He threw down his staff and it became alive.
108And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers
109The leaders from among the people of Pharaoh said "This is a knowledgeable magician!"This is the transliteration of the important words in Arabic and their meanings given
7107 So he falqa his asa, then it became alive.
108 WanazaAAa yadahu fa-itha hiya baydaolilnnathireena
109 The nobles/chiefs from Pharaoh's nation said "That truly that (is a) knowledgeable alsahiru."Yad---baydao means white hand but it also means an argument/proof/conviction that becomes very clear/evident.
Alsahiru/saharin/alsahara and sihr comes from sahara/sahira and means to gild, fascinate, bewitch, wheedle, turn anyone from enchant, practice sorcery, hoax, involve in trouble, deprive of understanding, fraud, illusion.
Sihr means witchcraft, sorcery, eloquence, seduction, falsehood, deception, turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner, anything the source of which is not quite visible, showing off falsehood in the form of truth, mischief.
tulqiya/almulqeena/alqoo/alqaw/alqi comes from the root laqiya and means to meet, meet with, see, come across, experience, occur, undergo, endure, find out a thing, lean upon, receive, come face to face. Here it refers to throw something so the person will undergo/receive/experiences/meets it, this can be anything from an object to a word that is thrown to the opposition. For example jalasa tilqaa fulanun means to sit facing or opposite to. So laqiya always refers to an exchange or meeting of two opposites.
As you can see, the Arabic words which are used have many more meanings then is normally given in this story of Moses and Pharoah. The choice of words is completely determined by blind following of the Biblical story. The true story was distorted by the Hebrews for their urge to the supernatural. The Quran corrects the story and gives the true account. Here is the correct rendition when keeping in line with the fixed Laws of Nature
7107He falqa/presented his asa/argument and it got life .
108And he drew out his yad/strength and conviction, and it became baydao/evident for the onlookers
109The leaders from among the people of Pharaoh said "This is a knowledgeable alsahiru/twister of truth!"You can believe the traditional understanding and say these were just phenomenas we do not understand, but I believe we just have been blindly following the Biblical influence on our understanding without reminding that it is the Quran that is called the Furqan, the Criterion and not the Bible. Also the non-miracle approach gives far more logical and contains a far more important message for guidance then the traditional approach. But this is my understanding.
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peace
so just the translations are influenced by hadith and bible?
not the original qur'an in arabic, right?i guess no miracles thing does make sense. because if they got to see miracles then i wanna see some.
and when i say miracles, you know what i mean, splitting of the see and such.
but as i can see from evolution of thinking, we see miracles every day.The true story was distorted by the Hebrews for their urge to the supernatural.
i was under the impression that qur'an could not be distorted.
is there a qur'an anywhere which wasn't influenced by hadith or bible?
i want to know the original words that came to us.