no miracles?

unknownuser

Peace all,

For discussions that the "miracles" mentioned in al-qur'aan are literally possible without contradicting any signs of al-qur'aan, please see the following

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13826.msg126376#msg126376

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.0

I have shown in these discussions how some of the relevant signs of al-qur'aan CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation without causing logical flaws and violating the grammar and arabic sentence structure of the relevant signs. Those signs can only be talking about real and literal "miracles", i.e. "rare phenomenon" governed by as yet unknown laws of nature, as opposed to "commonly observed" phenomenon governed by the known laws of nature.

arnoldyasin

peace

so just the translations are influenced by hadith and bible?
not the original qur'an in arabic, right?

i guess no miracles thing does make sense. because if they got to see miracles then i wanna see some.
and when i say miracles, you know what i mean, splitting of the see and such.
but as i can see from evolution of thinking, we see miracles every day.

i was under the impression that qur'an could not be distorted.

is there a qur'an anywhere which wasn't influenced by hadith or bible?
i want to know the original words that came to us.

Peace Nerspi,

The Arabic Quran is not distorted, only by my understanding, it is our approach to the words, their meanings, that is distorted.

For the rest I can only advice to study translations and their commentaries, and learn Arabic as much as possible, and just gain knowledge. In the ned it is your worldview that decides the understanding. The Quran is very flexible, as it is for all time.

And Tanveer,

We have only discussed the story of Mary and Jesus, and we have to disagree on the interpretation, also on the concept of Nature in the Quran we have to disagree on.

But to say you have ' proven' and ' dismissed' all of the interpretations in incorrect. We only discussed the story of Jesus, and I have not made any conclusion on the 100-year death story in my book or posts as far as I know. So you have not proven anything, only shown your interpretation on 2 subjects. Just as I have given my interpretation on several subjects, which cannot be dismissed on grammical or Arabic grounds. Only on what your personal accepts or not.

Raj-ah

Arnold wrote

We have only discussed the story of Mary and Jesus, and we have to disagree on the interpretation, also on the concept of Nature in the Quran we have to disagree on.

So what does this reveal, you keep it moulding the translation as per your satisfaction. We can safely say that Tanveer has refuted your claims.

Arnold

But to say you have ' proven' and ' dismissed' all of the interpretations in incorrect. We only discussed the story of Jesus, and I have not made any conclusion on the 100-year death story in my book or posts as far as I know. So you have not proven anything, only shown your interpretation on 2 subjects. Just as I have given my interpretation on several subjects, which cannot be dismissed on grammical or Arabic grounds. Only on what your personal accepts or not.

Well you are presenting a claim and the burden of proof is on you and not on Tanveer, any how he has put in much better logical arguments.
Your interpretations are mostly of a linguistic/translator and not that of a person who has command over Quran.

AaRoN

why is the burden of proof on arnold?

i guess it depends more on your own logic than on what he has presented, it seems as though alot of people make up their minds first anyways, and thus accept the "logic" which most matches their own.

Your interpretations are mostly of a linguistic/translator and not that of a person who has command over Quran.

i've seen plenty of translations and interpretations that weren't by linguists and look where those have got us

would anyone really believe in these concepts as they do if that is not what they had been taught from birth?

most are just claiming to reinterpret while trying to preserve their preconceived notions

Raj-ah

why is the burden of proof on arnold?

If we know the ABC of debate we must know that One who presents has to defend!

i've seen plenty of translations and interpretations that weren't by linguists and look where those have got us

You must be selective. This one is no different from the plenty you have read.

Remember the worst way to read or understand Quran is by word to word translation as this is not the way it was revealed.
Don't let these self proclaimed scholars distort the original message of the book of Allah.

it seems as though alot of people make up their minds first anyways, and thus accept the "logic" which most matches their own.

Yes you said it right
Arnold and alike impressed by propaganda have made up their minds that Miracles are not possible, even without understanding what Miracle is?, so once decided that No Miracle, they come up with whole new idea of metaphore.... bla bla, and started translating the Quran word to word according to their own predetermined logic.

Elke

Your interpretations are mostly of a linguistic/translator and not that of a person who has command over Quran.

Peace raj-ah

who is IYO a person having command over quran ?

lk

arnoldyasin

Arnold and alike impressed by propaganda have made up their minds that Miracles are not possible, even without understanding what Miracle is?, so once decided that No Miracle, they come up with whole new idea of metaphore.... bla bla, and started translating the Quran word to word according to their own predetermined logic.

Peace,

It shows how little you know. Islamic commentators and scholars going back to 200 years after the Prophet have claimed the same things as I. I'm certainly not the first one and will not be the last. And what do you know about what or how I have researched things?

If you study my work carefully, which you haven't, you will see I always follow the rules of the Quran, which is keeping the whole Quranic Message in mind. That my conclusions differ with the main stream opinion, even with most of the reform movement, is not the criteria. Rarely do I just translate word for word, I combine all verses on the same subject to get an overall idea of the meaning.

You can always disagree, but if you give commentary, then at least base it on something then just your personal worldview and arguments that are even wrong. First study my work better as you clearly haven't. Now you're just making up baseless arguments to create an excuse to dismiss me in an easy way.

nerspi

peace

i agree that word for word translation is not really the best way.
now just because arnold presented his view doesn't mean he's distorting the qur'an to fit what he says.
if he is, then we all are, when we say to not follow hadith and we find verses to back up our claims and it makes sense to us not to follow it. now, the sunnis are gonna do the same, and they have, they will find verses in the qur'an to prove that we do need to follow hadith and it makes sense to them to follow it.

it appears to me that there are two qur'ans, one influenced by bible and hadith which says miracles did happen and we've listed verses,
and the second qur'an, the same verses, except the meaning is totaly different.

first of all, how can we know which verses were distorted?
up until now i didn't mind the miracles thing since it could happen if God decided to do it. but now i hear about these laws that He doesn't break. could, but doesn't. and i thought ok, guess those things didn't happen, something else did, but what?

and not far ago i heard this story of a blind woman, she went sky diving, and while falling she heard something pop in her head, when she landed her eye sight came back. now she can see.

but how can that happen, right. when you're blind, you're blind, nothing you can do to fix it. only God can fix it and the way it happened, i would call it a miracle.
but wait, we just said that there are laws that God doesn't break, right, everything goes by these laws, right.

so there are either 2 possibilities

a miracle happened
or
a cure for blindness is jumping from a plane

but if it wasn't a miracle, if it was a law that if you go sky diving you get your eye sight back, then why doesn't every blind person do it?

arnoldyasin

Peace nerspi,

There were many factors involved when she got her eyesight back. It had also not really to do with the jump itself, the airpressure, adreline and maybe some more factors were only part of the factors that made the cells in her eyes to be activated again.

It is not that simple by saying blind is blind. There are always several factors involved which makes a person blind and also how he can regain his eyesight back. With every person this is different. We just not always know all the factors involved, and the human has still many onknown possibilities as can be seen through bioquantum mechanics. Some people use this as an explanation for what previous generations experienced as miracles, but I believe that with the story of the Quran, more simple answers can be given.

nerspi

peace

well that does make sense.

so that's the verdict? no miracles.

i guess that leaves me with learning arabic.

unknownuser

6945 In the original Arabic, "his" before "right hand" does not exist. You correctly transliterated it., which is even a further proof that it means "mighty/power/most seriousness...)

Yusuf Ali implied ?His? so we?ll change?

Walaw taqawwala AAalayna baAAda alaqaweeli
6944 And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name,

Laakhathna minhu bialyameeni
6945 We should certainly seize him by THE RIGHT HAND,

Thumma laqataAAna minhu alwateena
6946 And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart

Depending on context RIGHT HAND can mean many things; a person?s power/freedom allowed by God as a ruler over a country in his ?right hand? or ability to write/concoct a story as in?

Wama kunta tatloo min qablihi min kitabin wala takhuttuhu biyameenika ithan lairtaba almubtiloona
2948 And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.

Obviously to understand one has to be read in CONTEXT ? verse, chapter, entire Qur?an.

Numbers when expressed literally are CLEAR verses not metaphorical as in Surah 18 about the youths along with their dog asleep in the cave for exactly 309 years?

Walabithoo fee kahfihim thalatha miatin sineena waizdadoo tisAAan
1825 So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more)

The above seems odd like resurrection after 100 years (2259) mentioned earlier. We don?t know all the physics laws exactly; time is relative, matter energy slowed down; in our pond we have Koi fish which hibernate the entire winter under ice and they woke up only two days ago as from the dead; have to go feed them now.

Peace

Samia

I agree with you, nuun. The story of the youth in the cave is straightforward. Unless one day we can hibernate. Untill then, I go with the literal meaning.

As for the "right hand", this is something I do not take literally at all. No need to mention "right" unless it has a deeper meaning. Arabic langage has not adopted the "right" when speaking of "hand written" or "hand made".

Yousuf Ali deliberately added "his" to force a literal meaning. If any possessive noun was to be added, it should be "Our God's", then it will definitely not be literal.

unknownuser

I agree with you, nuun. The story of the youth in the cave is straightforward. Unless one day we can hibernate. Untill then, I go with the literal meaning.

You mean that story can also be metaphorical? ;D

Ghulam_Rasool

tilka ayatu alqurani wakitabin mubeen
These are verses of the Qur'an; a Book that makes things clear (271)

I believe in the miracles mentioned in the Holy Quran, among other reasons, because Allah is not trying to trick us. He revealed a plain and simple Quran with clear meaning, there is no need for speculating. Furthermore, Allah is Qadeer (The Powerful), and nothing is impossible for Him.

Some people use the following verse to prove that Allah does not change the laws of nature, and so miracles must be interpreted within the context of nature and science

(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime No Change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah (3362)

However, this and other similar verses about the Sunnat (Way) of Allah have been taken out of context and their meanings have been twisted. This verse in particular, its context is that Allah is enjoining the Muslims to seeks out the treacherous Hypocrites and deal harshly with them. In this case, the Way of Allah is enjoining the Believers to violence against treacherous and immoral people. We read in the Bible the same thing about how Allah exhorted Prophet Yusha (Alaihi salaam) to wipe out his pagan enemies as well. So this is an established Sunnat (Way) of Allah which does not change. It has nothing to do with natural laws or science.

And here is a warning from God not to twist the meaning of the Holy Quran, but to leave its explanation and interpretation to Allah who knows best

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding (37)

I feel like this verse was revealed specifically as a warning to people who twist the meaning of the Holy Quran, especially those who deny its literal meaning with regard to miracles.

unknownuser

ilka ayatu alqurani wakitabin mubeen
These are verses of the Qur'an; a Book that makes things clear (271)

From 271 you gave the impression that every thing in the Quran is literal. But then you quoted 37 that clearly indicates not everything is literal.

37 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical.

Al-Quraishi

Yes, but therein lies the pitfall.

God says,

But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings,

People who are taking the stories literally don't act the way the perverse people who are manipulating these verses for their own ends, healthy people take them as stories and believe they happened and benefit from the obvious wisdom of how the good people and bad people acted in it, furthermore, they take the fundamental verses and follow them through, unlike perverse people who wish to translate pork as this and jinn as that.

Also, allegorical verses doesn't mean the parables of the book, it means those verses with no clear understanding, however some Joe Messiah will always come along showing the people 'what it really means'.

Alen

Salam.

I think that The GOD Almighty, AllPowerful knows best what happened back then.

My personal opinion did it all happen literally? Yeah, i think it did because those people needed some really, truly strong sign to see that a Messenger speaks the truth.

Today we have miracles but according to our understanding and our intelligence.

Back then, people wanted to see dead come to life, they even asked messengers to bring back the dead. Jesus brought the dead back, with the will of The GOD All Powerful, right?
They wanted to see GOD back then, correct? Well, after Moses walked through the dry ground through the sea, non-believers did see something they didn't believe - death, which is promised to everyoneone, but hard death and a tough one is given to true ly bad non-believers.

GOD knows best.

Today we want to see GOD's miracles we see them every day, all day.
People smoke all day, for decades and don't die.
Same goes for drinking.
....

Peace.

unknownuser

Also, allegorical verses doesn't mean the parables of the book, it means those verses with no clear understanding, however some Joe Messiah will always come along showing the people 'what it really means'.

These are verses of the Qur'an; a Book that makes things clear (271)

If there are verses in Quran that have no clear understanding then how would you explain 271 and all other verses which says Verses of Quran makes things clear.

Since we have not given any seperate list of literal and allegorical verses, then how to decide which is which and what is what.

nerspi

peace

i think it did because those people needed some really, truly strong sign to see that a Messenger speaks the truth.

okay, then i wanna see miracles too.

If there are verses in Quran that have no clear understanding then how would you explain 271 and all other verses which says Verses of Quran makes things clear.

maybe the verses are unclear just today. in the future, who knows.
they didn't know the meaning of expanding the universe or mountains that move or the lowest point of the world, but now we do.

anyway, these messengers came with signs, they showed signs, if they weren't cane turning to snakes or splitting seas or resurrecting the dead, then what were they?
i've read many times that disbelievers didn't believe in clear signs, now what were they?

unknownuser

i've read many times that disbelievers didn't believe in clear signs, now what were they?

The following are the signs people do not reflect
3022
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours verily in that are Signs for those who know.

12105
And how many Signs in the heavens and the earth do they pass by, yet they turn (their faces) away from them!

maybe the verses are unclear just today. in the future, who knows.

This part is not in the verse that why verses are not clear but in our interpretation of that verse. This is exactly where people differ in opinion.

hey didn't know the meaning of expanding the universe or mountains that move or the lowest point of the world, but now we do.

They knew them according to their knowledge of the universe. We interpret them according to ours. After 500 years later people would interpret them according to their knowledge at that time.