Isra: Muhammad or Musa?

ahmadazwa

Wait a minute AhmedBahgat, lets look at 171 again

17/1 Glorified be the one who took His servant by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa whose surrounding We have blessed, that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

In other words

17/1 Glorified be the one (Moses) who took His servant(Moses' people) by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa whose surrounding We have blessed, that We may show him (the one who is glorified) of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

To shorten that up

17/1 Glorified be the one who took His servant by night ... that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

So if God is glorifying Himself as the ONE who took His servant by night, why would He do it so that He "may show him of Our signs.? Who is this 'him' God is showing His sign to?

PLUS, if we look back at 20/77

20/77 And already We inspired to Moses ?Travel with My servants. So strike for them a path in the sea. You shall not fear being overtaken, nor be afraid.?

So here, God inspired Moses to go and travel by night with His (God) servants. Not God himself taking His servant on a journey. He asks Moses to go with God's servants, ie the people of Moses. So My Servant(first narrative), or His Servant(second narrative) refers to the people of Moses.

So if we look back at 17/1

17/1 Glorified be the one (somebody) who took His servant(Moses' people) by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa whose surrounding We have blessed, that We may show him (the one who is glorified) of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

So that 'somebody', the one being 'glorified' is the prophet Moses?

Samia

Salaam Ahmad

Linguistically your understanding is acceptable. The only problem is that I think the expression of "Glorified" in the quraan is restricted to God. If you can just bring one incidence where this term is used for other than God.

warner

Peace Ahmad, Samia

The children of Israel are/is Moses?s servant (singular)? Is this linguistically correct?

Is there any place in the Quran a Messengers People are called ?his slaves? meaning messengers slaves ? Or rather His Slave?

Why did he take the servant on the night journey? To show some signs to whoever is being taken.

But according to the distortion it seem its not his servant who is to be shown the signs it is the glorified one who is to be shown the signs by ?We?.

Logically the argument is not valid.

unknownuser

Wait a minute AhmedBahgat,

Hello

Sure, I will give you 5 minutes not 1

lets look at 171 again

Let's go for it

17/1 Glorified be the one who took His servant by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa whose surrounding We have blessed, that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

Great, however the word TOOK is the wrong translation , it has to be "cause to Walk", or "Cause to Travel"

In other words

LOL, why is that?, I mean why you want to use OTHER WORDS?

17/1 Glorified be the one (Moses) who took His servant(Moses' people) by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa whose surrounding We have blessed, that We may show him (the one who is glorified) of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

Three mistakes

Glorified be the one (Moses), you replaced Allah with Moses
who took His servant(Moses' people), you made the singualr Abdihi a PLURAL (Moses' People)
who took His servant(Moses' people), you translated the word ASRA as Took while it should be "Cause to Walk", or "Cause to Travel" within the verse context

Your flawed understanding also contains one severe non sense

You started verse 171 by making the one who is talking in the verse as Moses who took his people (plural) at night from a place to another, then you ended the verse by saying "that We may show him (the one who is glorified) of Our signs."

See the non sense to follow

A) 'We ' must be Moses under your non sesnible understanding because he was the one that was talking in the verse and the one who Asra be Moses people

B) the people Moses took as you claim is "Abdihi" , instead of calling them "THEM" you called them "him" "We may show him "

To shorten that up

I hope so because I would like to salvage any minutes out of those 5 minutes that I was glad to wait for but ended up discussing three mistakes and one severe flaw

17/1 Glorified be the one who took His servant by night ... that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

Hmmm, you are back to the first words?, what happen to "In other words?"

So if God is glorifying Himself as the ONE who took His servant by night, why would He do it so that He "may show him of Our signs.? Who is this 'him' God is showing His sign to?

hmmm, ok him above must be "Abdihi", i.e. "HIS SERVANT",

now the history tells us it was Mohammad, you and Fahad are telling us that it's Moses but so far both of you provided mistakes and non sense, sorry

PLUS, if we look back at 20/77

20/77 And already We inspired to Moses ?Travel with My servants. So strike for them a path in the sea. You shall not fear being overtaken, nor be afraid.?

That is right, in 2077, it was Moses who was ordered by Allah to cause HIS SLAVES "", "Bi Ibady", i.e. "PLURAL", i.e. "MY SLAVES" to travel

But in 171 is prasing Allah who caused "ABDIHI" a singular to travel

We can't also deny that the cause of Travel in 171 was to show ABDIHI "HIS SLAVE" a few signs

in 2077 however there was no mention to showing any signs rather telling him about the escape route and to strike the sea with his staff when they reached it as planned by Allah, Moses and his people were in great FEAR, that is why 2277 ended with " ", i.e. NOT TO FEAR

PLUS, if we look back at 20/77
So here, God inspired Moses to go and travel by night with His (God) servants. Not God himself taking His servant on a journey.

Wrong, the verb Asra is referring to the One that is praised in 171, i.e. Allah is the one who Asra because He Asra Be Abdihi, i.e. CAUSED ABDIHI (HIS SLAVE) TO TRAVEL

He asks Moses to go with God's servants, ie the people of Moses.

Wrong, the word was Abdihi and it is singular, God's servants however is Plural

So My Servant(first narrative), or His Servant(second narrative) refers to the people of Moses.

http//free-islam.com/extraimages/dismissed.gif

So if we look back at 17/1

Sorry, that's it for me, thanks for wasting not 5 minutes but 15 while you stated indirectly that the whole process should take one minute

17/1 Glorified be the one (somebody) who took His servant(Moses' people) by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa whose surrounding We have blessed, that We may show him (the one who is glorified) of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

So that 'somebody', the one being 'glorified' is the prophet Moses?

No, it is Allah

Salam

fbahadir

Selam,
I have read an interesting interpretation of 17/1 and I want to share it to you.
It says Mescid-i Aksa was a masjeed near Cirane near Mekke because at that time there was not a temple called Mescid-i Aksa in Jerusalem and the report that Mescid-i Aksa had been near Cirane said and recorded by Vakdi and Ezraki. And says prophet Muhammed travelled between these to masjeeds Mescid-i Haram and Mescid-i Aksa in his vision(dream), also adds the verse 17/1 is an evangel of Hajj and an exam for the followers of prophet.
To strengthen this claim, it points out two verses of Kur?an ;
Other verses of Kur?an about the event of Isra;
?Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.?(48/27)

?Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran We put fear (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!?(17/60)

And says if these infos are combined and approached logically, that time prophet Muhammed and his followers could not approach to Mescid-i Haram(Mekke) because it was on the land of enemies and Explains; ?They temporarily chose a new masjeed around Cirane near Mekke which was recorded by some scholars namely Mescid-i Aksa but all their desire was Mescid-i Haram in Mekke. Prophet Muhammed travelled spiritually(not bodily) in his vision between these two masjeeds, he saw the verses, the proof of Hajj and tavaf, he announced good news to his followers that they would do Hajj in future and this became an exam for his followers to believe or not to believe and then this vision became real when the time came. The event of Isra occurred as a sign of Hajj and tavaf that would be real soon, not for the prophet to see Allah. Besides Kur?an does not mention anything about Mirac. However we realized that this verse which was shown namely the proof of Allah and is nothing but an evangel of Hajj and tavaf mentioned in 48/27, and this vision is an exam for the followers of Muhammed mentioned in 17/60. Allah knows the best?

unknownuser

Hello fbahadir

I truely elieve that the purpose of Israa was to support the Mirajj, the Mirajj was the main mircale to raise the prophet spitit after he was opposed hard in the first few years of his mission, so if it was only the Mirajj that happeded then no one would have believed the prophet, but because he proved his Israa (as you know from the history) then there is no reason to disbelieve what he said about the Mirajj

Allah knows best

Salam (greeting)

Samia

Hello fbahadir

I truely elieve that the purpose of Israa was to support the Mirajj, .... so if it was only the Mirajj that happeded then no one would have believed the prophet, but because he proved his Israa (as you know from the history) then there is no reason to disbelieve what he said about the Mirajj

Allah knows best

Salam (greeting)

So you think that if people can believe in a nocturne journey between two earthly locations, it will be easier for them to believe in a journey to heavens where prophet Muhammad had a conversation with God during which he bargained the number of prayers per day (with the instruction and supervision of Moses)?

You always ask for "evidence" from the quraan for the smallest information, yet you come with a huge story like this, attribute it to the prophet, and do not give even one verse to support your claim?

unknownuser

So you think that if people can believe in a nocturne journey between two earthly locations, it will be easier for them to believe in a journey to heavens where prophet Muhammad had a conversation with God during which he bargained the number of prayers per day (with the instruction and supervision of Moses)?

You always ask for "evidence" from the quraan for the smallest information, yet you come with a huge story like this, attribute it to the prophet, and do not give even one verse to support your claim?

you are truely a manipulator

here is what I said again

I truely elieve that the purpose of Israa was to support the Mirajj, .... so if it was only the Mirajj that happeded then no one would have believed the prophet, but because he proved his Israa (as you know from the history) then there is no reason to disbelieve what he said about the Mirajj

Allah knows best

can you bloody see that O said "I truely elieve that the purpose of Israa was to support the Mirajj"

can you also see that I said "(as you know from the history)", i.e. I didn't associate anything to the prophet as you do

can you also see that I ended my comment by "Allah knows best"

finally, someone calling himself a Muslim like you who does not even understand the smallest guidance in it which if been greeted you should the leastt reply with the same greeting if not better and I have seen other greeting you and you dont reply the greeting so you have proven to be ignorant and only wants to pick on me therefore you have been dismissed

Samia

but because he proved his Israa Allah knows best

I didn't associate anything to the prophet as you do

Then who is "he" in "he proved his israa"?

You say

I truely believe that the purpose of Israa was to support the Mirajj, the Mirajj was the main mircale to raise the prophet spitit after he was opposed hard in the first few years of his mission,

I say

So you think that if people can believe in a nocturne journey between two earthly locations (i.e. isra), it will be easier for them to believe in a journey to heavens (i.e.miraj) where prophet Muhammad had a conversation with God during which he bargained the number of prayers per day (with the instruction and supervision of Moses)?

(words in brackets are addition to make it easier or you to understand)

But if you don't understand English, nor do you know logic, don't accuse people of manipulation. Blame it on your shortcomings.

And finally, what's the point of greeting people when you use such language

you are truely a manipulator

can you bloody see

you have proven to be ignorant

you have been dismissed

What to call this one

I have seen other greeting you and you dont reply the greeting

(If you have nothing to do/say, be a judge)!

All this, and no constructive reply!!

And finally

only wants to pick on me

Stop being paranoid.

unknownuser

Bla blah

http//free-islam.com/extraimages/dismissed.gif

AaRoN

you know ahmed it's a thread - a continuing conversation, so is there really a need to give you a salam on every post?

i notice a few posts above she actually said "salam ahmed" when she began addressing you... but you ignored that apparently and just started to crap on her... haha

you know there's probably not much sense in you even saying salam or peace or anything to people if you don't really mean it anyways.

as far as i can see it, giving no greeting at all in reply to someone who gives a greeting they don't even mean is actually a better greeting, so perhaps it meets the criteria after all

do you believe that a man called muhammad flew from a city called mecca to a city called jerusalem on the back of a horse with the head of a lady? (see descriptions of buraq)

you're so funny, when you want people on this site to believe stuff you call it history instead of hadith, but it's still hadith... i hope these kids are on to you

dissed... but not missed

unknownuser

you know ahmed it's a thread - a continuing conversation, so is there really a need to give you a salam on every post?

i notice a few posts above she actually said "salam ahmed" when she began addressing you... but you ignored that apparently and just started to crap on her... haha

you know there's probably not much sense in you even saying salam or peace or anything to people if you don't really mean it anyways.

as far as i can see it, giving no greeting at all in reply to someone who gives a greeting they don't even mean is actually a better greeting, so perhaps it meets the criteria after all )

Hello

Well, I didn't really mean that she has done it with me rather with others, now the Quran tells when you are greeted reply wiith the same or better, it doe not say when you are in the mid of a discussion you should not

also forum discussions is not like real face to face discussions

do you believe that a man called muhammad flew from a city called mecca to a city called jerusalem on the back of a horse with the head of a lady? (see descriptions of buraq)

Well, I believe that he was caused to travel between the two places, how?, I have no idea, but sure I believe 100% that it happened as the Quran told us

you're so funny, when you want people on this site to believe stuff you call it history instead of hadith, but it's still hadith... i hope these kids are on to you P

dissed... but not missed

Hmm, well if the history does not contradict the Quran then there is no reason to reject that history, on the other hand accepting that old history that does not contradict the Quran is far safer than accepting the fairy tales stories by many in here which contradict the Quran

Here is an example

Moses Asra bi Ibad Allah as 171 says, hahahaha

But 171 never mentioned Moses nor it mentioned Ibad Allah (Plural)

Can you see the clear cut and invented fairy tale that clearly contradicts the Quran?

At least it contradicts the Quran because 171 said, "Bi Abdihi" (Singular)

Looks like you are confused yourself

unknownuser

Peace bro AhmedBahgat,

now the Quran tells when you are greeted reply wiith the same or better, it doe not say when you are in the mid of a discussion you should not

Does Quran say anything about the good manners? How to behave with others, what kind of behaviour and language we should use when engaged in a discussion?

Does Quran allow such kind of behaviour?

you are truely a manipulator

Quote
can you bloody see

Quote
you have proven to be ignorant

Quote
you have been dismissed

Peace all, Hamsa

unknownuser

Peace bro AhmedBahgat,

Does Quran say anything about the good manners? How to behave with others, what kind of behaviour and language we should use when engaged in a discussion?

Does Quran allow such kind of behaviour?

Peace all, Hamsa

Salam (Greeting)

Good that you brought this up, of course the Quran told us about the good manners, however the good manners with those who dont manipulate the religion to suit their own low desires and mislead thousands of others, I consider those the enemy of my religion, as simple as this

Cheers

AaRoN

also forum discussions is not like real face to face discussions

lucky for you, sad for your local dental surgeons.

Looks like you are confused yourself

haha what am i confused about? you're the one who assumed the because i don't agree with your view that i automatically agree with the other view... maybe i don't agree with either, how's that grab you?

unknownuser

Salam (Greeting)

Good that you brought this up, of course the Quran told us about the good manners, however the good manners with those who dont manipulate the religion to suit their own low desires and mislead thousands of others, I consider those the enemy of my religion, as simple as this

Cheers

Peace bro Ahmed

As far I know, wrong is he who deliberately mix falsehood with the truth and deliberately misguide others. Am I wrong?

242 And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

How can we judge what the real intentions of those people who are sharing their knowledge with all of us on this forum? Only God can judge others, we can always make a mistake while judging others. IMHO, you can be more effective if you are humble in your approach while discussing.

May Allah guide all of us to the right path.

Hamsa

unknownuser

lucky for you, sad for your local dental surgeons.

hmmm

haha what am i confused about?

a lot, how about you debate me in anything that is Quran related and I will prove it to you inshaallah?

you're the one who assumed the because i don't agree with your view that i automatically agree with the other view... maybe i don't agree with either, how's that grab you?

hmmm, then tell us what you believe in as we told you what we believe in or do you feel ashamed to tell us what you believe in?

AaRoN

a lot, how about you debate me in anything that is Quran related and I will prove it to you inshaallah?

why would i waste my time in a debate with you when you already have an established belief system to which you adhere stoically?

i've watched you obviously outmatched in debates for years and never give up your position so i'd rather use my energy for something more fun than frustrating myself with you

hmmm, then tell us what you believe in as we told you what we believe in or do you feel ashamed to tell us what you believe in?

shame? haha is that an effort to try to appeal to my egotistical side to engage in a discourse of this nature with you?

unknownuser

Peace bro Ahmed

As far I know, wrong is he who deliberately mix falsehood with the truth and deliberately misguide others. Am I wrong?

Salam (Greeting) brother Hamsa

Of course, however if they deliberately mix falsehood with the truth then that is enough to convict them as deliberately;y misguiding others, see when someone insist that Abdihi (Singular) is Ibad Allah (Plural) then that person must be deliberately mixing falsehood with the truth, it might not be in their intention to misguide others but surely it is in their intention to Yahrifo (Manipulate) the Singular word Abdihi and make it plural (Ibad Allah), i guess a smart kid should recognise their fatal mistake

242 And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

Exactly, now you need to tell your pals who do just that by telling us that Abdihi (Singular) is Ibad Allah (Plural)

Regarding the part of red, of course they know it, THEY BLOODY KNOW THAT A SINGUALR CAN'T BE PLURAL unless Allah is talking about Himself by using (Nahnu) i.e. (We) yet they cone to us and tell us Abdihi (Singular) = (Ibad Allah (Plural)

your argument will be valid if they lack the knowledge that a single human can't be a group of humans, if they are ignorant to that degree then I will concede to you regarding the above verse

How can we judge what the real intentions of those people who are sharing their knowledge with all of us on this forum?

Very simple, we can know when they come with non sense that defies common sense, like a single human = a group of humans then bloody use the Quran to justify their fatal mistake

Only God can judge others,

It depends what type of judgment you are talking about, if you mean everything then sorry you are only following the feel good religion concept, of course we can judge what others say using our brains that Allah gave it to us, now my bloody brain tells me that a single can't be plural if we talk humans, do you agree with that?

we can always make a mistake while judging others.

True, but it can't be a mistake when we say that person (who claims that a single human = a group of humans) is a clear cut ignorant and is misleading others, his/her ignorance though is affecting something very vital in the religion of Islam which is the miracle of Israa and indirectly accuses all Muslims of being fools, yet he/she provided no evidences but their wishful thinking

IMHO, you can be more effective if you are humble in your approach while discussing.

I can only be effective if I'm myself, I can't pretend to be humble so others like what I say, I really care less if they like it. respect me or not, I will continue to expose anyone even my father if they come and tell us non sense like a single human is a group of humans then bloody use the Quran to justify that while the Quran clearly exposes them yet they turn a blind eye and not admit their fatal mistake, that is why their action must be deliberate and they know it if they insist that a single = a plural

May Allah guide all of us to the right path.

It is not gonna happen over night with magic, it can only happen if we stick to His guidance in His words without manipulating it

Salam

unknownuser

i've watched you obviously outmatched in debates for years and never give up your position

Why don't you show us JUST BLOODY one link to one debate if you are truthful?