Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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peace lobster.....
Where about is the phallic symbol from egypt located in mecca? near the kaaba? and do you have photos for the flowers on the feet of abraham?
Has there ever been historical data about the kaba? who built it? when? when was the black stone put into place? when was its silver vulva shaped frame put on it? does anyone have this sort of info? when was "maqam ibrahim" built/discovered?
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peace ay,
here's a picture of a penis being stoned. I thought I'd just post the link.
http//www.hasanpix.com/data/media/57/HS2002c57i357.jpgI couldn't find a close up picture of the footprints where you could see the flower pattern. I remember Ayman posting pictures of this stuff on another thread, I'll try to find them for ya.
and I don't know anything about it's history, except that it was a pagan shrine, and regardless of what the hadith say, it never changed. -
peace lobster,
thanks for the pic - but this is old - now the stoning of the penis is no longer stoning a penis - it is a big wall....or 3 big walls... there is a small pic here www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1851_0_25_0_C44
i dont know when they changed them though!to be honest i think the phallic symbolism that was there, was lost on the saudi government.... and the vast majority of people....
oh also i forgot to add... please do look for the image of the flowers on the footprints!
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peace
Yeah, the people who the pilgrimage and all the rituals don't know what these symbols are, or that they even exist. But they're there.
I tried to find a better pic on google, but here's a pic Ayman posted (look at his post on the page)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.570 -
By the way, Layth's article, "where was mohammed?" is also relevant to this question. And that goes well with lots of the directed context/audience said so many times in the quran like "O Children of Israel" and "O people of the Scripture".
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
As for my own understanding of "who" actually built the one at Mecca, I think these verses might refer to them
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.May God Guide
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agentxxx - i don't know if any of that information is based on any outside verified archaeological proof, but i think it's just history based on the bible...
think about it now... if mecca wasn't a place, but a word, as some say... then was ur a place? was jerusalem a place?
were any of these words that we now take as place names really meant to be places or were they concepts? who knows, but i personally don't rely too much on biblical history
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Peace bro Zidane,
As for my own understanding of "who" actually built the one at Mecca, I think these verses might refer to them
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.Thank you for the excellent understanding bravo
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peace Aaron,
agentxxx - i don't know if any of that information is based on any outside verified archaeological proof, but i think it's just history based on the bible...
Yes bro, this information from Encarta is based on the bible.
think about it now... if mecca wasn't a place, but a word, as some say... then was ur a place? was jerusalem a place?
were any of these words that we now take as place names really meant to be places or were they concepts? who knows, but i personally don't rely too much on biblical history
That is exactly what I want to find out?the purpose of this thread is to understand and try to resolve some of the confusions relating to such issues.
peace
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peace Zidane,
thank you for the link bro.
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.Wow. I have never pondered on these verses ?in relation with KAABA??
Traditionally these verses are explained in connection to some ?MASJID-A-ZARAR? which was eventually demolished by the prophet??.so I need some time to understand before I fully agree with bro tanveer.peace
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By the way, Layth's article, "where was mohammed?" is also relevant to this question. And that goes well with lots of the directed context/audience said so many times in the quran like "O Children of Israel" and "O people of the Scripture".
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
As for my own understanding of "who" actually built the one at Mecca, I think these verses might refer to them
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.May God Guide
Salam (Greeting) Zidane
I don't understand what you mean, is what you are saying that 9107-110 are talking about Al Masjid Al Haram?
Thanks
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Salaam Ahmed,
According to Layth's article, "Where was mohammed?", in part 2 at http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm, the Masjid Al Haram or the Sacred Mosque/Temple was rather the one at the "Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem rather than the one at Mecca.
Clearly, I don't think those verses refer to the real Masjid Al Haram. Using this understanding, I think they refer to a Temple that was built to emulate it - thus "do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before" - this might be the "kaaba" at Mecca (which also has many pagan symbols/rituals with it).
Again, this is just my understanding, I am well aware that many do agree and many don't agree with the whole theory itself and I respect that different people can see the same thing in different ways. To me, this is whole issue not of real significance, because either way they are both "rocks/stones". The real objective of us all is to worship God alone and do good. The small issues caused so much trouble in the past and they continue to do so today - I hereby apologize to anyone whom my understandings might seem offensive. Yes, we can be different and work together for an overall better community that tries its best to please God. )
May God Guide.
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peace Zidane,
Smiley Nice to hear that you are taking your time and efforts for God! peace
thanks for understanding angel
The real objective of us all is to worship God alone and do good
I absolutely agree with you )
peace AB, good to see you still going strong bro ), I hope you and your family in "Australia/Egypt" are fine. sun
peace
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Salaam Ahmed,
Salam brother
According to Layth's article, "Where was mohammed?", in part 2 at http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm, the Masjid Al Haram or the Sacred Mosque/Temple was rather the one at the "Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem rather than the one at Mecca.
Firstly, according to an article means nothing really, I was asking you about your own understanding to 9107-108, on the other hand Layth article is full of mistakes and I replied already to the first 2 parts and have shown severe mistakes and illogical events according to the article author, I stopped replying to it due to the fact that what I presented from the Quran was enough to refute it fair and square but it seems a lot of young Muslims get excited with the article then get dragged and drugged and just follow it blindly despite the non sense it, then try to do the same that those authors do, which is to manipulate many verses to justify their non sense, this is also what Rashad Khalifah did exactly btw his cult follower continue to do just that, and even this is what the sunnis do as all sects do for that matter.
Well, it seems I have to resume my reply to the other 3 parts of that article and count the mistakes in?m then summarize the whole refute in clear points so it is easy for the young Muslims to understand.
Clearly, I don't think those verses refer to the real Masjid Al Haram.
Those verse ares referring to any Masjid ?Mosque?, the word mentioned ?Masjid? which is nakirah, i.e. unknown, i.e. any Masjid, which I agree it may apply to Al Masjid Al Haram because it is a Masjid, however the context of the verses do not apply to Al Masjid Al Haram logically, let?s look at the verses and I will use your English translation you have provided and see how accurate it is
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
(107)
(10-> Verse 107, is a description of any unknown Masjid that its owners use it to hurt and divide the believers, and as I agreed it may include Al Masjid Al Haram as it is currently known in Mecca, however the word ?Dirara? does not really incline that Al Masjid in question is fake, rather its owner use it to cause harm, but the masjid stays the same as a place to worship Allah for those who want to perform Sijood to Him in these places, possibly those who are not aware that Al Masjid is being used to hurt the believers by its current owners, if we also check what happens inside Al Masjid Al Haram and compare it with hundreds of other masjids scattered around the so called Muslim countries, it will be obvious that Al Masjid Al Haram is not used to divide the believers rather to unite them, (even under the flawed understanding that it is a lace for idol worshiping) it still unite them, it does not divide them, and certainly Al Masjid Al Haram is not a place to initiate wars against Allah and His messenger, on the other hand I have been in many masjids that its owners act in such manner described in 9107, let me check the translation you provided
107, ? And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers,?, the word temple has to be wrong, because not in every temple you perform Sijood to Allah, a Masjid is a place where a believer perform Sijood to Allah, that is why it is on the wazn of Mafaal, i.e. Ism Makaan, i.e. the name of a place, i.e. its name is Masjid, if there is no English word for it (I mean if Mosque does not fit) then I recommend to leave it as Masjid
-> In fact according to the history records ( a very long story), some people built a mosque for that purpose (a sort of hypocrites) and wanted the prophet to pray in it (sort of promotion), that is what we are told the reason for revealing verse 107-108, that is why you read at the beginning of 108 an order to the prophet NOT TO PRAY IN THAT MOSQUE mentioned in 107 ? Do not maintain in it ever.?, I say the use of the word ?maintain? is not accurate because the literal meaning for the verb ?Taqum?, is ?Stand?, so it has to mean standing for the Salat, maintain the Salat does not fit the context. The Arabic word for maintain is ?Hafiz? and it was used in many other verses in conjunction with Salat, i.e. ?Hafizo Ala Al Salawat?, ?maintain the prayers? , what comes next is a new sentence, ? A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.? again the use of the words temple & maintain has to be wrong, this sentence is very tight with the previous verse, warning and guidance, warning not to pray in a masjid like that (107) but he should pray in any masjid where it is founded on righteousness (10, I can?t see anything so far that conclusively suggest that we are talking about Al Masjid Al haram in Mecca other than this bit because Al Masjid Al Haram in Mecca was built on the Taqwa of Allah from day one by prophet Ibrahim in a valley where there was no plantation nor water unlike the flourished Jerusalem hill, and even if Al Masjid Al Haram in Mecca is used wrongly by the SA government, it is not used to divide the Muslims nor their wrong use makes it fake.
Using this understanding, I think they refer to a Temple that was built to emulate it - thus "do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before" - this might be the "kaaba" at Mecca (which also has many pagan symbols/rituals with it).
Might be or certainly is?, well, the Kabba is not a place to launch wars on Allah and His messenger, in fact Jerusalem is a place to launch wars against Allah and His messenger and sure wars were launched in there against Allah and His messneger, it is up to you if you want to follow conjectures but I promise you when I finish my refute to Layth article I will send you a copy and you will be the judge in counting the mistakes in it.
Again, this is just my understanding,
Regarding the Kabba issue, no it is not your understanding, you were only made to understand it that way and you just followed, yet you have no concrete evidence to what you follow so you are trying to play with the Quran verses to suit your doubtful desires, that is why what you said regarding 9107-108 was Tahrif the words from its intended places to suit your own doubtful desires.
I am well aware that many do agree and many don't agree with the whole theory itself and I respect that different people can see the same thing in different ways.
This is not about respect or disrespect between us the humans, this is about disrespect to Allah words, can?t you see that or what?
To me, this is whole issue not of real significance,
Of course it is of high significance, it seems you don?t comprehend what you are following which is simply 99% of Muslims are Mushrikoon and idol worshippers bound to hill
because either way they are both "rocks/stones".
I don?t get what you mean?, of course any Masjid which is a building must be built of stone, right?, do Muslim worship the Kabba as the Christians worship Jesus and other worship the sun? No they don?t.
The real objective of us all is to worship God alone and do good.
And you need to go to Al Masjid Al Haram to do just that if you can, it is written in the Quran, worshipping Allah alone is not by just saying it.
The small issues caused so much trouble in the past and they continue to do so today - I hereby apologize to anyone whom my understandings might seem offensive.
No offences of course it is all about confusion, your proposed understanding to 9107-108 most certainly will cause confusion to many young Muslims and I?m sure you will be held accountable by Allah for that, so I have to advice you to ?Itaqqi Allah brother?
Yes, we can be different and work together for an overall better community that tries its best to please God. )
May God Guide.
No we can?t be different regarding the basics of our religion as outlined in the Quran, please don?t give me that feel good religion attitude
Salam borther
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peace AB, good to see you still going strong bro , I hope you and your family in "Australia/Egypt" are fine. sun
peaceSalam mate
I'm really delighted to hear from you too, the family is great Al hamdullelah, wish you and your family the best
Take care
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Peace bro Nadeem (agentxxx), all,
You might find the following discussions by Ayman interesting and relevant to this topic
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/41a51328bdca3c80?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/730fe6e654dd9242?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/51a91e7c64b57fb6?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/221ffb07a5dcb04b?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/ebe1e5f7b9e67f0e?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/170416c761b02771?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/45468e83c8d780b4?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/4a3c6d6a13f7df1c?
The complete discussion in which Ayman participated can be found at
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/783540f26de114a0/2a42085a49ad9a9a?lnk=raot#2a42085a49ad9a9a
Please also see the following discussion on this forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0
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Peace all,
As far as "bakkah" is concerned, please see the following link for a discussion about "bibakkata" by brother Anwar
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10079.msg54622#msg54622
Also see the following by Anwar (progod)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7199.msg9648#msg9648
Brother Ayman agrees that "bakkah" is not a meaningless proper name per his following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112175#msg112175
Thus 396 would be translated as
396 Truly the best/foremost house placed/established for people is "in a ranking above the rest"/"with much crowding"/"bibakkata"; blessed and a guidance for the worlds.
The location of the house is "DO NOT SET UP PARTNERS WITH THE GOD"
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place/location THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
The only requirements according to al-qur'aan for the "bayt"/house where "hajj" takes place are
- People do not set up any partners with The God at the location of the house/"bayt" (see 2226).
- It is a safe place where people can assemble without fearing oppression or persecution (see 2125).
Thus the "hajj" could be at any house established for The God where no partners are set up with The God, and where it is safe and secure for the people to assemble.
Please see the following for additional relevant info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10673.msg61263#msg61263
THERE IS NO QUR'AANIC EVIDENCE FOR HAJJ AT JERUSALEM OR MECCA. This is based on the misunderstanding of the COMMON NOUNS "BAKKATA" and "MAKKATA" as proper names. This is similar to the post qur'aanic hijacking of other common nouns from al-qur'aan and their usage as proper names, such as "masjid al-aqsa", "safa", "marwah", "kaaba" etc.
The original "hajj" during the Prophet's time could have been at Jerusalem or its vicinity, but the Qur'aan does not give any proper name locations for "hajj"; rather it gives us GENERAL CONCEPTS using which a "bayt" could be established for the purpose of "hajj" at any place which fulfills the criterion given by the Qur'aan as shown above.