Regarding tawassul (intercession)
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SHIRK is actually a "hebrew" word, meanings "Abandoning". In this context the word SHIRK and MUSHRIK (the one who SHIRK) is abandoning God and/or His commandment.
If you read the "Sheret Ha Divrot" (Ten Commandment), one who believes in intercession of another party (to God) can be considered SHIRK-ing (from the commandment). As it state "Thou shall have no other God before My face".Salam / Peace
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SHIRK is actually a "hebrew" word, meanings "Abandoning". In this context the word SHIRK and MUSHRIK (the one who SHIRK) is abandoning God and/or His commandment.
If you read the "Sheret Ha Divrot" (Ten Commandment), one who believes in intercession of another party (to God) can be considered SHIRK-ing (from the commandment). As it state "Thou shall have no other God before My face".Salam / Peace
I wanted to point out the belief system of the pagans. Some seemed to think that it was intercession that made them mushriks only and they believed in one God. Wahhabis claimed this yet we know of no polytheist people ever who believed that God is one but we can use "holy men" as interceders.
So I don't see what does asking intercession has to do with shirk if the person you are asking is not a god.
Reza Aslan-No God but God
In contrast, paganism among the sedentary societies of Arabia had developed from its earlier and simpler manifestations into a complex form of neo-animism, providing a host of divine and semi-divine intermediaries who stood between the creator god and his creation. This creator god was called Allah, which is not a proper name but a contraction of the word al-ilah, meaning simply "the god." Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs. Though a powerful deity to swear by, Allah's eminent status in the Arab pantheon rendered him, like most High Gods, beyond the supplications of ordinary people. Only in times of great peril would anyone bother consulting him. Otherwise, it was far more expedient to turn to the lesser, more accessible gods who acted as Allah's intercessors, the most powerful of whom were his three daughters, Allat ("the goddess", al-Uzza ("the mighty", and Manat (the goddess of fate, whose name is probably derived from the Hebrew word mana, meaning "portion" or "share". These divine mediators were not only represented in the Kaaba, they had their own individual shrines throughout the Arabian Peninsula Allat in the city of Ta'if;
al-Uzza in Nakhlah; and Manat in Qudayd. It was to them that the Arabs prayed when they needed rain, when their children were ill, when they entered into battle or embarked on a journey deep into the treacherous desert abodes of the Jinn-those intelligent, imperceptible, and salvable beings made of smokeless flame who are called "genies" in the West and who function as the nymphs and fairies of Arabian mythology.
There were no priests and no pagan scriptures in pre-Islamic Arabia, but that does not mean the gods remained silent. They regularly revealed themselves through the ecstatic utterances of a group of cultic officials known as the Kahins. The Kahins were poets who functioned primarily as soothsayers and who, for a fee, would fall into a trance in which they would reveal divine messages through rhyming couplets. Poets already had an important role in pre-Islamic society as bards, tribal historians, social commentators, dispensers of moral philosophy, and, on occasion, administrators of justice. But the Kahins represented a more spiritual function of the poet. Emerging from every social and economic stratum, and including a number of women, the Kahins interpreted dreams, cleared up crimes, found lost animals, settled disputes, and expounded upon ethics. As with their Pythian counterparts at Delphi, however, the Kahins' oracles were vague and deliberately imprecise; it was the supplicant's responsibility to figure out what the gods actually meant.
Although considered the link between humanity and the divine, the Kahins did not communicate directly with the gods but rather accessed them through the Jinn and other spirits who were such an integral part of the Jahiliyyah religious experience. Even so, neither the Kahins, nor anyone else for that matter, had access to Allah. In fact, the god who had created the heavens and the earth, who had fashioned human beings in his own image, was the only god in the whole of the Hijaz not represented by an idol in the Kaaba. Although called "the King of the Gods" and "the Lord of the House," Allah was not the central deity in the Kaaba. That honor belonged to Hubal, the Syrian god who had been brought to Mecca centuries before the rise of Islam.
Despite Allah's minimal role in the religious cult of pre-Islamic Arabia, his eminent position in the Arab pantheon is a clear indication of just how far paganism in the Arabian Peninsula had evolved from its simple animistic roots. Perhaps the most striking example of this development can be seen in the processional chant that tradition claims the pilgrims sang as they approached the Kaaba
Here I am, O Allah, here I am.
You have no partner,
Except such a partner as you have.
You possess him and all that is his.
This remarkable proclamation, with its obvious resemblance to the Muslim profession of faith-"There is no god but God"-may reveal the earliest traces in pre-Islamic Arabia of what the German philologist Max Muller termed henotheism the belief in a single High God, without necessarily rejecting the existence of other, subordinate gods. The earliest evidence of henotheism in Arabia can be traced back to a tribe called the Amir, who lived near modern-day Yemen in the second century B.C.E., and who worshipped a High God they called dhu-Samawi, "The Lord of the Heavens." While the details of the Amirs' religion have been lost to history, most scholars are convinced that by the sixth century C.E., henotheism had become the standard belief of the vast majority of sedentary Arabs, who not only accepted Allah as their High God, but insisted that he was the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews. End Quote
What on earth does this has to do with what Muslims do?
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Dear bigmo
there is no "Tawasuul" used in quran, it is "Wasilla " which has created the confusion , and some people misconceived/perceived the following verses to compete with jesus's intercession.
5-35 O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD and seek the ways and mean(Wasillah) to Him, and strive in His cause, that you may succeed.
Conventionalists took this as intercession of Mohammad when he was alive, and it continues when he is dead, this leads to asking other ,(sufi, saints etc)to "intercede" when they are alive and continues as Tomb worship when they are dead .
However i understand it to be like this,
The Arabic word is "WASILAH". Let us see what it means.
It is derived from the root "W S L" with the following meanings
To seek the favor, seek the means of nearness, approach, access, Honorable, rank, degree, affinity, tie, nearness, come closer. The word "WASILAH" DOES NOT mean intermediary between God and human being. THIS MEANING IS CONTRARY TO THE USAGE OF CLASSICAL ARABIC LANGUAGE
The word used in Qur'aan is WASILAH and NOT TAWASSUL only other occurrence of the root Waw-Siin-Lam and the word "AL waseelata" is in here and find for yourself how God is using the same word , exactly the opposite.17-56,57 Say "Call on those you have claimed besides Him. For they have no power to remove harm from you or shift it" [Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access (AL waseelata) to their Lord - whoever of them is nearest - and they desire His mercy, and they fear His retribution. The retribution of your Lord is to be feared!
Isn't it amazing that people will use 535 to imply somehow Prophet Muhammad is "AL waseelata", when in 1757 it explicitly points out those that they call on (e.g. saints imams soffies Muhammad) seek "AL waseelata" themselves!!! One does not seek something they already are.
Now brother let me explain this one more time in simple language. Lets assume that during this discussion you reach a correct/better understanding of the issue, this forum is a Wasilla, layth could be a wasillah, I am also a wasillah, but If you wrongly start idolizing me or layth, and want to use our (intercession) to get you passed, that becomes TAWASSUL. And is precisely what God is NOT using here. Not only that, he uses the same word (the only other use of this word in whole quran) at another place, telling us not to take the wrong meanings.
Isn't it amazing? So when he says it is a GLORIOUS Quran fully detailed, isn't he absolutely right?
Imagine the divine wisdom, he precisely knew that some people are likely to derive wrong meanings out of this word and will mislead people to shirk, so he clarifies in advance,
Brother when he says every thing is given in this book. This is how he means it. If we use our minds and explore, we will find it, but if we do not trust him and look at the crap lying around, for sure it would mislead us.peace
siki
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Dear bigmo
there is no "Tawasuul" used in quran, it is "Wasilla " which has created the confusion , and some people misconceived/perceived the following verses to compete with jesus's intercession.
5-35 O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD and seek the ways and mean(Wasillah) to Him, and strive in His cause, that you may succeed.
Conventionalists took this as intercession of Mohammad when he was alive, and it continues when he is dead, this leads to asking other ,(sufi, saints etc)to "intercede" when they are alive and continues as Tomb worship when they are dead .
However i understand it to be like this,
The Arabic word is "WASILAH". Let us see what it means.
It is derived from the root "W S L" with the following meanings
To seek the favor, seek the means of nearness, approach, access, Honorable, rank, degree, affinity, tie, nearness, come closer. The word "WASILAH" DOES NOT mean intermediary between God and human being. THIS MEANING IS CONTRARY TO THE USAGE OF CLASSICAL ARABIC LANGUAGE
The word used in Qur'aan is WASILAH and NOT TAWASSUL only other occurrence of the root Waw-Siin-Lam and the word "AL waseelata" is in here and find for yourself how God is using the same word , exactly the opposite.17-56,57 Say "Call on those you have claimed besides Him. For they have no power to remove harm from you or shift it" [Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access (AL waseelata) to their Lord - whoever of them is nearest - and they desire His mercy, and they fear His retribution. The retribution of your Lord is to be feared!
Isn't it amazing that people will use 535 to imply somehow Prophet Muhammad is "AL waseelata", when in 1757 it explicitly points out those that they call on (e.g. saints imams soffies Muhammad) seek "AL waseelata" themselves!!! One does not seek something they already are.
Now brother let me explain this one more time in simple language. Lets assume that during this discussion you reach a correct/better understanding of the issue, this forum is a Wasilla, layth could be a wasillah, I am also a wasillah, but If you wrongly start idolizing me or layth, and want to use our (intercession) to get you passed, that becomes TAWASSUL. And is precisely what God is NOT using here. Not only that, he uses the same word (the only other use of this word in whole quran) at another place, telling us not to take the wrong meanings.
Isn't it amazing? So when he says it is a GLORIOUS Quran fully detailed, isn't he absolutely right?
Imagine the divine wisdom, he precisely knew that some people are likely to derive wrong meanings out of this word and will mislead people to shirk, so he clarifies in advance,
Brother when he says every thing is given in this book. This is how he means it. If we use our minds and explore, we will find it, but if we do not trust him and look at the crap lying around, for sure it would mislead us.peace
siki
People do not believe these sufi saints or whomever are gods. Its not seeking waseela or tawassul, is the why they do it. While the sufis and others do so because they believe that people can communicate with God in the barzakh state(purgatory) and thus can request God to answer someones prayers, the pagans believed that by asking these gods directly these gods can do so by the powers they have. As i showed in the article by Reza Aslan they prayed to these gods as me and you pray to God. it is actually similar to evangelical Christians do, they believe Jesus is God, thats why they do so. No sufi will say these sufi sheikhs are God or came to earth as God incarnate and stuff.
Which is why the Quran says about it
Surat Al Muminien ( believers)
91. No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!Here we are talking about many gods each with his own dominion, one controls the oceans, another the wind, another the sun, another fate, another gives courage and victory and so on. This is shirk, that God is incapable of running the affairs of the world and thus needs partners to help Him do so. This has nothing to do with what tawassul is. Tawassul is about requesting the God and only God to deliver on behalf of someone while on the barzakh state. The most you can say is the dead can't.
Yet we know barzakh exist
Surat Al Muminien
46. In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening And on the Day that Judgment will be established "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty!"036.026
YUSUFALI It was said "Enter thou the Garden." He said "Ah me! Would that my People knew (what I know)!-
PICKTHAL It was said (unto him) Enter paradise. He said Would that my people knew
SHAKIR It was said Enter the garden. He said O would that my people had known036.027
YUSUFALI "For that my Lord has granted me Forgiveness and has enrolled me among those held in honour!"
PICKTHAL With what (munificence) my Lord hath pardoned me and made me of the honoured ones!
SHAKIR Of that on account of which my Lord has forgiven me and made me of the honored ones!Surat spoils of war(
50. If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers , (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying) "Taste the penalty of the blazing FireSo we know barzakh exists in varying ways, we dont know the world of the barzakh so believing someone can communicate with God and hear what requests are made to him is not shirk. Shirk is the believe there gods who run the affairs of this world other than God and you can pray to them for sustenance because of the power they have and not that they will request God on your behalf. This is not what the pagans believed, this is a wahhabi trick. The Quran must be read with understanding on who it was revealed to, since the pagans and even the sahabas all knew what the Quran was saying exactly since they were fully aware of what paganism is.
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I wanted to point out the belief system of the pagans. Some seemed to think that it was intercession that made them mushriks only and they believed in one God. Wahhabis claimed this yet we know of no polytheist people ever who believed that God is one but we can use "holy men" as interceders.
I like to point out the meanings of SHIRK is actually abandoning the commandment with God.
There are also "Thou shall not steal" commandment and "Thou shall not commit murder" etc...
Thus one who steal (a thief) or murderer is also a MUSHRIK. (SHIRK-ing from his/her commandment with God)
MUSHRIK is not only applied to those who are worshipping idols but also to anyone who forgot / abandon his/her commandment with God.So I don't see what does asking intercession has to do with shirk if the person you are asking is not a god.
Seeking intercession to God is meaningless.
God knows everything. He even know the content of your prayer before you even said it.
That's the true meaning of "Thou shall have no other God before My face".
As praying is also considered as "Communicating with God face to face", and it should be performed DIRECTLY / no intercession.Salam / Peace
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I like to point out the meanings of SHIRK is actually abandoning the commandment with God.
There are also "Thou shall not steal" commandment and "Thou shall not commit murder" etc...
Thus one who steal (a thief) or murderer is also a MUSHRIK. (SHIRK-ing from his/her commandment with God)
MUSHRIK is not only applied to those who are worshipping idols but also to anyone who forgot / abandon his/her commandment with God.Seeking intercession to God is meaningless.
God knows everything. He even know the content of your prayer before you even said it.
That's the true meaning of "Thou shall have no other God before My face".
As praying is also considered as "Communicating with God face to face", and it should be performed DIRECTLY / no intercession.Salam / Peace
What do you mean a thief is also a mushrik, don't you think you are applying the same wahhabi concept of the saved sect. That 95% of the muslims are deviants and astray and practicg idol and following jewish or pagan or zoroastrian rituals and just a small community is on the right path. Is this not the same logic we saw from the wahhabi, where they are always saying that only they are on the stright path and the rest of the Ummah has gone astray one way or the other. Just like you use shirk, they use shirk, and just like they use bida' you use bida' also with the intended result is other than a few everyone else is lost.
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Salaam all
I totally agree with Jafar.
Remember the case of Satan. He nither disbelieved in God nor did he set an idol to worship. He just disregarded the command of God and considered his own logic to be better to follow. Thus when we disrespect any of God's Commandment, because we believe that it is not practical, or it is better that way, or for any reason without acknowledging that we were doing wrong, then we are setting partners (our own reasoning)with God .
The same thing when God says (if my subjects ask you about me, tell them I am near, answer the caller if he/she calls me). Then we go and say, no, better I set an intermediary, some one He loves and won't let him down...bla..bla...We think that we are making a better choice than God, or we do not believe Him when He makes it so simple, or we personify Him as people of authority/wealth for whom we always need a recommendation...whatever our reasoning might be, we behave as if we understand Him better than He understands us. This is nothing but SHIRK
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Salaam all
I tortally agree with Jafar.
Remember the case of Satan. He nither disbelieved in God nor did he set an idol to worship. He just disregarded the command of God and considered his own logic to be better to follow. Thus when we disrespect any of God's Commandment, because we believe that it is not practical, or it is better that way, or for any reason without acknowledging that we were doing wrong, then we are setting partners (our own reasoning)with God .
The same thing when God says (if my subjects ask you about me, tell them I am near, answer the caller if he/she calls me). Then we go and say, no, better I set an intermediary, some one He loves and won't let him down...bla..bla...We think that we are making a better choice than God, or we do not believe Him when He makes it so simple, or we personify Him as people of authority/wealth for whom we always need a recommendation...whatever our reasoning might be, we behave as if we understand Him better than He understands us. This is nothing but SHIRK
beautiful post
Thanks sis
peace
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I like to point out the meanings of SHIRK is actually abandoning the commandment with God.
There are also "Thou shall not steal" commandment and "Thou shall not commit murder" etc...
Thus one who steal (a thief) or murderer is also a MUSHRIK. (SHIRK-ing from his/her commandment with God)
MUSHRIK is not only applied to those who are worshipping idols but also to anyone who forgot / abandon his/her commandment with God.Seeking intercession to God is meaningless.
God knows everything. He even know the content of your prayer before you even said it.
That's the true meaning of "Thou shall have no other God before My face".
As praying is also considered as "Communicating with God face to face", and it should be performed DIRECTLY / no intercession.Salam / Peace
completely agree bro. Thanks
12106
And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
Salam
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Salaam all
I totally agree with Jafar.
Remember the case of Satan. He nither disbelieved in God nor did he set an idol to worship. He just disregarded the command of God and considered his own logic to be better to follow. Thus when we disrespect any of God's Commandment, because we believe that it is not practical, or it is better that way, or for any reason without acknowledging that we were doing wrong, then we are setting partners (our own reasoning)with God .
The same thing when God says (if my subjects ask you about me, tell them I am near, answer the caller if he/she calls me). Then we go and say, no, better I set an intermediary, some one He loves and won't let him down...bla..bla...We think that we are making a better choice than God, or we do not believe Him when He makes it so simple, or we personify Him as people of authority/wealth for whom we always need a recommendation...whatever our reasoning might be, we behave as if we understand Him better than He understands us. This is nothing but SHIRK
I see some intolerance and accusation of shirk on muslims. Have you all been in one time or another influenced by wahhabism? Is this a salafi burnout ?
I explained already what is shirk and tawassul has nothing to do with shirk. The devil did not get kicked out because he refused to bow to Adam( according to your logic, if he did so it would be shirk!), it was why he refused and his envy and arrogance and his desire of leading mankind astray out of spite and envy that brought him to where he is. God asked him why he refused to bow, the answer and the attitude of his is what made him who he is.
This is shirk
TRADITIONALLY, THE JAHILIYYAH has been defined by Muslims as an era of moral depravity and religious discord a time when the sons of Ismail had obscured belief in the one true God and plunged the Arabian Peninsula into the darkness of idolatry. But then, like the rising of the dawn, the Prophet Muhammad emerged in Mecca at the beginning of the seventh century, preaching a message of absolute monotheism and uncompromising morality. Through the miraculous revelations he received from God, Muhammad put an end to the paganism of the Arabs and replaced the "Time of Ignorance" with the universal religion of Islam.
In actuality, the religious experience of the pre-Islamic Arabs was far more complex than this tradition suggests. It is true that before the rise of Islam the Arabian Peninsula was dominated by paganism. But, like "Hinduism," "paganism" is a meaningless and somewhat derogatory catchall term created by those outside the tradition to categorize what is in reality an almost unlimited variety of beliefs and practices. The word paganus means "a rustic villager" or "a boor," and was originally used by Christians as a term of abuse to describe those who followed any religion but theirs. In some ways, this is an appropriate designation. Unlike Christianity, paganism is not so much a unified system of beliefs and practices as it is a religious perspective, one that is receptive to a multitude of influences and interpretations. Often, though not always, polytheistic, paganism strives for neither universalism nor moral absolutism. There is no such thing as a pagan creed or a pagan canon. Nothing exists that could properly be termed "pagan orthodoxy" or "pagan heterodoxy."
What is more, when referring to the paganism of the pre-Islamic Arabs, it is important to make a distinction between the nomadic Bedouin religious experience and the experience of those sedentary tribes that had settled in major population centers like Mecca. Bedouin paganism in sixth-century Arabia may have encompassed a range of beliefs and practices-from fetishism to totemism to manism (ancestor cults)-but it was not as concerned with the more metaphysical questions that were cultivated in the larger sedentary societies of Arabia, particularly with regard to issues like the afterlife. This is not to say that the Bedouin practiced nothing more than a primitive idolatry. On the contrary, there is every reason to believe that the Bedouin of pre-Islamic Arabia enjoyed a rich and diverse religious tradition. However, the nomadic lifestyle is one that requires a religion to address immediate concerns Which god can lead us to water? Which god can heal our illnesses?In contrast, paganism among the sedentary societies of Arabia had developed from its earlier and simpler manifestations into a complex form of neo-animism, providing a host of divine and semi-divine intermediaries who stood between the creator god and his creation. This creator god was called Allah, which is not a proper name but a contraction of the word al-ilah, meaning simply "the god." Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs. Though a powerful deity to swear by, Allah's eminent status in the Arab pantheon rendered him, like most High Gods, beyond the supplications of ordinary people. Only in times of great peril would anyone bother consulting him. Otherwise, it was far more expedient to turn to the lesser, more accessible gods who acted as Allah's intercessors, the most powerful of whom were his three daughters, Allat ("the goddess", al-Uzza ("the mighty", and Manat (the goddess of fate, whose name is probably derived from the Hebrew word mana, meaning "portion" or "share". These divine mediators were not only represented in the Kaaba, they had their own individual shrines throughout the Arabian Peninsula Allat in the city of Ta'if; al-Uzza in Nakhlah; and Manat in Qudayd. It was to them that the Arabs prayed when they needed rain, when their children were ill, when they entered into battle or embarked on a journey deep into the treacherous desert abodes of the Jinn-those intelligent, imperceptible, and salvable beings made of smokeless flame who are called "genies" in the West and who function as the nymphs and fairies of Arabian mythology.
There were no priests and no pagan scriptures in pre-Islamic Arabia, but that does not mean the gods remained silent. They regularly revealed themselves through the ecstatic utterances of a group of cultic officials known as the Kahins. The Kahins were poets who functioned primarily as soothsayers and who, for a fee, would fall into a trance in which they would reveal divine messages through rhyming couplets. Poets already had an important role in pre-Islamic society as bards, tribal historians, social commentators, dispensers of moral philosophy, and, on occasion, administrators of justice. But the Kahins represented a more spiritual function of the poet. Emerging from every social and economic stratum, and including a number of women, the Kahins interpreted dreams, cleared up crimes, found lost animals, settled disputes, and expounded upon ethics. As with their Pythian counterparts at Delphi, however, the Kahins' oracles were vague and deliberately imprecise; it was the supplicant's responsibility to figure out what the gods actually meant.
Although considered the link between humanity and the divine, the Kahins did not communicate directly with the gods but rather accessed them through the Jinn and other spirits who were such an integral part of the Jahiliyyah religious experience. Even so, neither the Kahins, nor anyone else for that matter, had access to Allah. In fact, the god who had created the heavens and the earth, who had fashioned human beings in his own image, was the only god in the whole of the Hijaz not represented by an idol in the Kaaba. Although called "the King of the Gods" and "the Lord of the House," Allah was not the central deity in the Kaaba. That honor belonged to Hubal, the Syrian god who had been brought to Mecca centuries before the rise of Islam.
Despite Allah's minimal role in the religious cult of pre-Islamic Arabia, his eminent position in the Arab pantheon is a clear indication of just how far paganism in the Arabian Peninsula had evolved from its simple animistic roots. Perhaps the most striking example of this development can be seen in the processional chant that tradition claims the pilgrims sang as they approached the Kaaba
Here I am, O Allah, here I am.
You have no partner,
Except such a partner as you have.
You possess him and all that is his.This remarkable proclamation, with its obvious resemblance to the Muslim profession of faith-"There is no god but God"-may reveal the earliest traces in pre-Islamic Arabia of what the German philologist Max Muller termed henotheism the belief in a single High God, without necessarily rejecting the existence of other, subordinate gods. The earliest evidence of henotheism in Arabia can be traced back to a tribe called the Amir, who lived near modern-day Yemen in the second century B.C.E., and who worshipped a High God they called dhu-Samawi, "The Lord of the Heavens." While the details of the Amirs' religion have been lost to history, most scholars are convinced that by the sixth century C.E., henotheism had become the standard belief of the vast majority of sedentary Arabs, who not only accepted Allah as their High God, but insisted that he was the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews.
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544
Whoever does not judge and rule according to what Allah has Revealed, such are the disbelievers.
5 45,47
Allah didn't reveal the following but majority of Muslims believe in
- Killing of Apostate
- Stoning to death
- Hadith as revelation
.
.
.
You can add more...
Majority of Muslims do not judge according to what Allah has revealed! Do they?
544 Whoever does not judge and rule according to what Allah has Revealed, such are the disbelievers.
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I see some intolerance and accusation of shirk on muslims. Have you all been in one time or another influenced by wahhabism? Is this a salafi burnout ?
Why do you insist on comparing us to Wahabis? Are they qur'aan aloners? Have I even typed the word "muslim"? Do not put words in my post and then judge me for your own misunderstanding.
I explained already what is shirk and tawassul has nothing to do with shirk.
"tawassul" has nothing to do with qur'aan. Read siki's post again.
The devil did not get kicked out because he refused to bow to Adam( according to your logic, if he did so it would be shirk!), it was why he refused and his envy and arrogance and his desire of leading mankind astray out of spite and envy that brought him to where he is. God asked him why he refused to bow, the answer and the attitude of his is what made him who he is.
Again, adding words to my post and claiming that that was my logic! In fact that's what is in your head, not mine. Please reread my post again, and try not to add to it.
You have already posted this article and I read it. I do not see any difference in it after having underlined it and putting it in italics, except that it became harder to read.
We have been brainwashed into believing that muslims cannot be mushriks, and thus people indulged in all kinds of shirk because "they cannot be mushriks". But as RasulHamsa well put it
12106
And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
muslims can be mushriks.
Salam
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I like to point out the meanings of SHIRK is actually abandoning the commandment with God.
There are also "Thou shall not steal" commandment and "Thou shall not commit murder" etc...
Thus one who steal (a thief) or murderer is also a MUSHRIK. (SHIRK-ing from his/her commandment with God)
MUSHRIK is not only applied to those who are worshipping idols but also to anyone who forgot / abandon his/her commandment with God.Hello
Exactly, if Allah said to do something while Satan suggest to do the opposite and we follow Satan then we have shirked becaus we obeyed satan and not Allah while in other matters we still obey Allah and not Satan
Salam
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Hello All
I think it is about time to post this on FM, this was a long reply to an enemy of Islam on faithfreedom web site that I put togther a few months back
An FFI member (muhmed terror head) but I call him muhmed boofhead, came up with the following stupid claim
" 98
" ,(*) "the 1st is al anbya 98
the 2nd is safat 2322this verse of quran say that he(ALLAH) will punish the oppstils and what THAY WORSHIP in hell,now this is verry strange how would allah put your idols in hell,?
the moon ,the sun the thunder,the birds ,the sky,the cows,...etc.
ok we are responsible but what did the cow,camel ,dogs fault if i worsheped them..!and the sun how do u through the sun in hell its almost the same for it.
hope you realy understand arabic then its so easy to just read that verse of quran and know what i mean.Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
(9
22 Gather together those who were unjust and their associates, and what they used to worship
23 Besides Allah, then lead them to the way to hell.
(22)
(23)I will actually take the chance replying to the above idiotic claim and expose the Mushrikoon as well, the subject of Mushrikoon is very much related to the above, because at least to Shirk is to worship/serve another entity but Allah and that is what the verses above are talking about, the verses are talking about those wrong doers who are worshiping/serving others but Allah.
muhmed boofhead thinks that all these man mad gods worshipped by different humans like the sun, the cows, some humans, etc etc must be burnt in hell because the Quran told us above that Allah will gather the Mushrikoon/Kafiroon with those whom they worshipped in the hell fire.
The boofhead also wonders how the hell the sun will be burnt in hell?
Let me add to his wonder another wonder, how the hell Jesus will be burnt in hell? Come on, we know that the majority of the Christians if not all worship/serve Jesus as a god therefore according to the above verses, Jesus must be burnt in hell. Which is not true of course
muhmed boofhead is also wondering about the fairness of God who is going to punish other things for a crime committed by other humans.
To be honest I found the subject funny at the beginning but now I started to take it serious, however I firmly believe that those verses posted by him are only talking about the Humans and Jinn whom been worshipped by other humans.
Many including Muslims think that physically worshipping/serving another entity as a god is the only thing that constitute Shirk, but I firmly believe that this is not the only case to constitute Shirk, logically speaking if you have two opposite propositions , for example
- Don?t kill
- Kill
Another example is like this
- Believe in God
- Don?t believe in God
Would you like another one?, why not
- Don?t lie
- Lie
There are zillions of other examples and all will be religiously related , in the above examples it is clear that God is at one end and satan is at the other,
If you chose to ignore God proposition and obey satan proposition then you have shirked and worshipped/served satan because part of worshipping/serving God is to obey his messages, therefore if you obey others who order you to do the opposite to what the God orders you to do then you have shirked..
See, even though those Mushrikoon don?t consider satan as a god they still obeyed him in a proposition which was the opposite to what Allah said..
What should make it even worse for those clear cut Mushrikoon that Allah warned them in advance regarding Satan and yet they even ignored that warning by Allah. let?s look at the clear warning by Allah
Verily Satan is an enemy to you so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.
(6)
-> The verse starts with a very clear message, the devil took us as enemy therefore WE MUST TAKE HIM AS AN ENEMY ALSO? Verily Satan is an enemy to you so treat him as an enemy?, see how we have been WARNED in advance, he is not just our enemy, he is also the enemy of Allah, and if you claim to be following Allah but you listen to His enemy (Satan) at the same time by following what Satan propose then, your action must constitute SHIRK without even considering Satan as a god.
Let me ask you, if you listen to your enemy and the enemy of God instead of your God, wouldn?t that make you a Mushrik?
-> Please pay attention to the words ? He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.?, that is what satan can do, he only invites them so they become his companions in the blazing fire, I have to say, these words ? ?, which was translated as ? He only invites his adherents?, is translated wrong, the word ?Hizb? means ?Party?, i.e. Satan calls his party, which is the opposite to Hizb Allah which means the Party of Allah, let?s have a look at the verse telling us about Hizb Allah, (The party of Allah)
55 Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
56 And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.
(55)
(56)-> See who should be considered by the believers as Wali in the religion, i.e. we should obey them, ? Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe,?, those prophets and believers whom we should listen to can?t constitute Shirk because what they should tell us to do should be exactly the same as what Allah told us to do in His Quran, i.e. NOT THE OPPOSITE, look how those believers were described in the same verse ? those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.?, NOT JUST ANYONE CLAIMING TO BE A BELIEVER.
-> Allah, His messengers and all true believers constitute the Hizb of Allah?then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.?, clearly we have another opposing party which is Satan and all his followers (adherents) from the humans and the jinn , satan is trying to make his party bigger by calling more to join as 356 told us
Remember we were told in 356 that satan ?only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.?, let?s see what Allah invites His party for
And Allah invites to the abode of peace and guides whom He pleases into the right path.
(25)
-> See how the two opposing parties have totally opposite invitation, here is both under each other
356, ?satan only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.?
1025, ? And Allah invites to the abode of peace?
So if you follow satan then you have shirked.
Let me highlight satan's main objective, it is clearly to flaw everyone of us, he is so committed that he said this to Allah
(Satan) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-?
(82)
-> By the power of God, satan will do his best to put all humans in the wrong, you have to know that satan main enemy are the believers and not the unbelievers, he needs to do nothing more to the unbelievers the unbelievers already shirked by following him opposite to what Allah said, unless they think of believing then he will come back to them from every where trying hard to put them in the wrong again
16- He said Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.
17- Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).
(16)
(17)-> See, ? verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path? and how he will do it? ? I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).?
See how satan is working hard to increase his Hizb (party) numbers, you have to realize that he is giving the above promise to God Himself ? and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee)?, i.e. it is either we join the winning party of Allah or the losing party of satan, if we join satan?s party and ignore Allah?s party then we have shirked because Allah is leading His party and satan is leading his opposite party.
Therefore all those who submitted to satan have shirked, satan is not a Mushrik though (will be explained at the end of my comment), sure all his party?s new recruits from the humans and the jinn will work hard to do exactly what satan did to them, i.e. they will try hard to increase their party numbers, i.e. if we listen to them then we have shirked because they say the opposite of what Allah says and we obeyed them and ignored Allah, let me give you a clear example from the Quran of some humans who work hard to say the opposite to what Allah says, if we listen to those unbelievers bound to hell then we will be Mushrikoon
Here is what Allah tells us to do
And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.
(204)
-> The message of our God is clear as light? And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.?
Now let?s have a look and see if what the disbeliebers (like many on FFI web site) say is the opposite to what Allah said above
26 And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
27 But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.
28 That is the reward of the enemies of Allah-- the fire; for them therein shall be the house of long abiding; a reward for their denying Our communications.
29 And those who disbelieve will say Our Lord! show us those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men that we may trample them under our feet so that they may be of the lowest.
(26)
(27)
(2
(29)-> Subhan Allah, see how verse 4126 is telling us that the Kafir members of satan party are telling us the opposite to what Allah told us ? And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.?, that is exactly what the boys and girls on FFI web site do, look how the Quran is exposing them with such accuracy, let me put the two verse under each other and see how they are the total opposite
7204, Allah said
?And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.?4126, the members of Satan party say
?Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.?Now if we follow what satan party call for which is the opposite to what Allah party call for then we have shirked, no question about it.
-> The problem for all those Kafirs and Mushriks from among the humans and the jinn is this as we read in the 4127, ? But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds?
-> I call them the enemy of Allah, indeed they are so? That is the reward of the enemies of Allah-- the fire; for them therein shall be the house of long abiding; a reward for their denying Our signs?, wow what an achievement, please put you hands for such losers, (use your finger tips to clap please), the idiots on FFI web site reject that I called them ?enemies of Allah?, well, didn?t they mock Allah, His messengers and His message on a daily basis trying to increase their losing party number?, don?t they tell the believers and those thinking about believeing ? Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome??, the enemies of Allah is a very well deserved label, the problem is, it is the worst label a human or a jinn can have, the consequence of gaining such label is simply a well deserved seat in hell.
-> So those who shirked by listening to others humans and jinn who opposed the message of Allah will be in big trouble indeed, so what they will do then is simply calling for Allah to allow them to crush them under their feet?And those who disbelieve will say Our Lord! show us those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men that we may trample them under our feet so that they may be of the lowest.?, they followed them in what they wanted them to follow which was the opposite to what Allah wanted them to follow so they shirked, it is clear that what they followed is stated as ? ?, ? those who led us astray from among the jinn and the men?. the ones they worshipped/served, the ones they obeyed to the contrary to what Allah said to obey. This is called shirk.
Hell is only made to be the punishment from those among men and jinn, this is what Allah ordained to the men and jinn
And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.
(13)
-> Firstly, Allah is telling us that He is the only One to guide any soul to its guidance? And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance,?, however Allah is not going to do it randomly by selecting some to guide and cursing the others, it does not work this way with our God, Allah guidance will only be offered to those sincere ones seeking His guidance, and He is the only one who can know who is sincere and who is not, who deserves to be guided and who does not., He knew that many will be arrogant and will join satan?s party so He declared ? but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.? , see only the jinn and men will be the residents of hell, there are many future residents of Hell on FFI whom we can easily identify so far and according to what they say.
This oath taken by Allah on Himself that both the humans and jinn will be the residents of Hell is stated again
118 And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
119 Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
(11
(119)-> See how the message in 3213 was stated again but in two verses instead, this is the beauty of the Arabic Quran, those who can see it are really blessed by our God. ? And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation? , this actually a question asked by many ignorant, they always say why Allah didn?t send one religion instead of many?. They think that this way humans won?t differ between one and another and will be united, however Allah is telling us even if He made us one nation (one religion) we will still differ ? and they shall continue to differ.?, the reason for that is explained in the following verse
-> Those who won?t differ (i.e. accept all religions as one religion from the same God) are blessed by Allah ? Except those on whom your Lord has mercy;, now for humans to differ even if they are made into one nation is a must BECAUSE THIS IS WHY ALLAH CREATED ALL OF US ? and for this did He create them;?, see, this is EXACTLY what happens on FFI on a daily basis, a struggle between the believers and those enemy of Allah who want to put out His light, well, here is their reward?and the word of your Lord is fulfilled Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.?, see all those members who joined the party of satan are only men and jinn, and the hell is made for them ONLY. Well done.
The following verse clearly says that many of jinn and humans are destined to hell
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
(179)
-> See, nothing else mentioned than humans and jinn who are destined to hell?And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men?, i.e. the verses posted by muhmed boofhead are talking about those humans and jinn who were worshipped/served i.e. ?WERE OBEYED? by other Humans and Jinn in what is the opposite to what Allah said.
When the many wrong doers among the humans and the jinn face hell, this is the message that will be told to both
O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.
(130)
-> This message clearly indicate that only the humans and jinn are the two creatures created by our God who were given freewill, therefore the punishment only applies to them ? O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours??, they will CONVICT THEMSELVES, ? They shall say We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.?, an example of such losers is msWesterner on FFI of course.
Indeed only men and jinn are the only two creatures who lie and say the opposite about our God, i.e. the punishment only applies to them and not to the sun nor to the moon neither to the cows which have been worshipped, here is a few verses that clearly prove that non other than the humans and the jinn who lie about our God
Even the Jinn know it
4 And that the foolish amongst us used to forge extravagant things against Allah
5 And that we thought that men and jinn did not utter a lie against Allah(4)
(5)The enemies of any prophet must be from among the humans or the jinn or both, they can?t be anything else
112 And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
113 And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).
114 Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) explained; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
(112)
(113)
(114)-> Clear from the above that only the humans and jinn are the enemies of any prophet ? And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn?, those enemy among the humans and jinn talk nothing but falsehood ?some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them),?, Allah can easily stop the enemy but He is allowing them for a purpose which is to convict themselves and surely test others?and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge?
-> Only those who don?t believe in the Last Day listens to and obey the falsehood ? And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it?, and that is how they should convict themselves, ? and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).?
-> The above falsehood is not only by those Kafiroon (disbelievers) but also by those believers who take other laws from human then make it divine laws that must be adhered to as if it is from Allah however THERE SHOULD BE NO DIVINE LAWS FROM ANY HUMAN, ALL DIVINE LAWS THAT WE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR MUST BE FROM ALLAH ALONE ? Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) explained; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.?
Now, let?s move on to a very important and related subject that I mentioned earlier, the subject of Shirk, this is still related to the humans and the jinn as I will explain, most people are raised and only fed that to shirk is to take another entity as a god in addition to the One and only God, for example the Christians are Mushrikoon because they took other entities as other gods in addition to the one and only God, the Hindus are the exact same despite both the Veda and the Bible say that there is only ONE GOD. This type of Shirk is committed when humans make PARTNERS as GODS in addition to Allah, this shirk is obvious to a child, in fact this is what they mostly teach Muslim children as I was taught when I was a child. The Quran talked about this type of Shirk of course as we will see soon.
The Quran also talked more about another type of Shirk, this is the one that is harder to understand, it is committed by taking man made laws and making it divine as if it was ordained by Allah. people committing this type of Shirk don?t really realize that they are shirking, this is because they are programmed that Shirk is mostly to take others as gods in addition to the One and only God. We will see clearly that the Quran talked more about this type of Shirk, this makes sense of course because this is the Shirk that most humans are not aware of.
To be continued....
-
Let me summarize the above paragraph in points then my elaboration will follow
There are two types of Shirk
- To take other entities as gods in addition to the One and only God
- To obey man made laws that were called by them as divine laws (religious laws) from God
The first type of Shirk must involve physical worshipping to those other entities that have been made gods, on the other hand the second type of shirk (the most common and disguised one) does not involve physical worshipping to those men who made these man made laws rather OBEYING WHAT THEY SAY AS IF IT IS DIVINE FROM GOD, they also think that if these man made laws are not adhered to then they will commit Kufr (disbelief), can you see how it constitutes Shirk?, simply it does because they took these laws as being part of the religion sent by the One and only God, I know this is going to be very hard on many Muslims, it was really hard on me myself a few years back, but Al hamdullelah I refused to continue submitting to what I was fed with since I was a child, it is sort of like being programmed indeed, exactly like how the Christians are programmed, NO BLOODY DIFFERENCE.
To tackle this huge problem facing all Muslims I decided to find what Shirk is according to the Quran, i.e. according to the One and only God, not according to any man made concepts, what I found in the Quran that when Allah talks about the first type of Shirk, He asks the Mushrikoon, ?Where is MY PARTNERS?, ?Shurakaei?, it looks like this in Arabic ? ?, can you see how it was said using ?MY?, i.e. partners who are gods like Him.
When Allah talks about the second type of Shirk , He asks the Mushrikoon, ?Where is YOUR PARTNERS?, ? Shurakaakum?, it looks like this in Arabic ? ?, can you see how it was said using ?YOUR?, it can also be said as ? Shurakaahum? ? ?, ?Their partners? i.e. partners who are the least humans like them but not gods, those human partners (the least) whom were obeyed in laws that were made RELIGIOUS LAWS and have been associated to the One and Only God as if it is ordained by Him.
I know this is tough to comprehend, well the Quran should make this matter clear to us, let?s look at a few verses
Here is an example showing Allah talking about the first type of Shirk
Then, on the Day of Judgment, He will cover them with shame, and say Where are My 'partners' concerning whom ye used to dispute (with the godly)? Those endued with knowledge will say This Day, indeed, are the Unbelievers covered with shame and misery,-
(27)
-> See what Allah will say to the Mushrikoon type I on the JD ? ?, i.e. ? Where are My partners?. see the ?MY?
Next it will be said to them to call for those partners (gods like Allah)
One Day He will say, Call on those whom ye thought to be My partners, and they will call on them, but they will not listen to them; and We shall make for them a place of common perdition.
(52)
-> Again see how it was said? ?, ? Call on those whom ye thought to be My partners?, see ?MY? is used in the verse, i.e. Allah is saying ?MY PARTNERS?, i.e. gods like Him. And that is the first type of Shirk, the word ? ?, ?Shurakaai? ?My Partners? was only used 5 times in the whole Quran (1627, 1852, 2862, 2874 & 4147)
Here is a good example for the other type of Shirk which was referred to as ? ? and ? ?, ?Your partners? and ?Their partners? respectively
22 And on the day when We shall gather them all together, then shall We say to those who associated others (with Allah) Where are your associates whom you asserted?
23 Then their excuse would be nothing but that they would say By Allah, our Lord, we were not polytheists.
24 See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.
(22)
(23)
(24)-> See how it was said to those who committed the second type of Shirk ? ?, ? Where are your associates?, not ?my associates?
-> The problem for those who commit the second type of Shirk that they don?t really think that they are Mushrikoon ? Then their excuse would be nothing but that they would say By Allah, our Lord, we were not polytheists.?, see, a clear cut Mushrik who is worshipping another thing as a god (the first type of Shirk) can?t really deny the crime, but with those who commit the second type of shirk which does not involve any physical worshipping rather obeying other man made laws which made associated to Allah, they really think that they are not Mushrikoon, but the are surely confused and misguided ? See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.?
Indeed Allah even explained to us what He means by ?Your partners? and ?Their partners?, let?s have a look
Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment.
(21)
-> See, ? ?, i.e. ? Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction??, please tell me, how many Shiekh, Mullahs, Imams and Muftis prescribed to us many things in the religion that Allah never sanctioned in His Quran?, can?t get clearer than this, indeed all those Muslims who follow any Imam, or a Mufti or a Shiekh or a Mullah in any thing ?Haram or Halal? that Allah never sanctioned must be committing the second and common type of Shirk as 4221 clearly is telling us.
This warning against saying ?This is Halal and that is Haram? was clearly stated in the Quran
?But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- This is lawful, and this is forbidden, so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.?
(116)
-> See how the verse started? But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,-?, see how what is about to be said is already described as FALSE, let?s see what we should never say ? ?, i.e. ? This is lawful, and this is forbidden?, again it was described as lies associated to Allah ? ?, i.e. ? so as to ascribe false things to Allah?, the problem for those who suggest that this is Halal and that is Haram as simply as follow? For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.?
Let?s have a look at another example of Shirk type 2 where the Mushrikoon listen to their associates and kill their children, I believe this verse is talking about the Jinn trying to obscure the believers from their religion, if the believers obey them then they shirked
And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion; and if Allah had pleased, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
(137)
-> Again see how it was said ? ?, i.e. ?Their associates?, not the associated of Allah, ? And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children,?, their associates only have one objective in regard to the religion of Allah ? that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion?, i.e. if the obey them then they shirked and those who has been obeyed will be their associates (their partners).
The problem is for those who obey others but God in matters that are related to the religion and are never sanctioned by God, they think they are not Mushrikoon, even those who are obeyed will deny that those who obeyed them were worshipping them
28 And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to the polytheists Keep where you are, you and your associates; then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say It was not us that you served
29 Therefore Allah is sufficient as a witness between us and you that we were quite unaware of your serving (us).
(2
(29)-> How clear is that, well both the Mushrikoon type 2 and their associates will be held to account? And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to the polytheists Keep where you are, you and your associates;?, see how Allah is going to stun them ?Keep where you are?, then both will be separated then their associates will deny that those who obeyed them were worshipping them ? then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say It was not us that you served?, see
-> They are not lying actually, they are only confused because they don?t know that by others obeying them in matters that are related to the Sharia of the religion while Allah never sanctioned it, they took them as their associates , their associates will even seek the witness of Allah that they were not aware that those who obeyed them were really worshipping them? Therefore Allah is sufficient as a witness between us and you that we were quite unaware of your serving (us).?, again, how clear is that.
The following verses are really compelling
35 Say Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?
36 And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.
(35)
(36)-> Allah is raising a very strong argument against the polytheists type 2, ? Say Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth??, Allah is also giving the answer to the Question He raised against those polytheists type 2 ? Say Allah guides to the truth.?, we only have one guidance sent to us from Allah called the Quran, the strong argument continues, looks like the polytheists type 2 have been cornered? Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided??, see this bit must apply to Bukhari and Muslim, both themselves needs to be guided by Allah, so why the hell we should follow them in all these religious matters that were not sanctioned by Allah in His Quran? ?not because they claim the prophet said so, we will never be able to prove that the prophet said any word in the their so called sahih books), well, here is what Allah is telling those Mushrikoon who follow Bukhari, Muslim and others in any religious matter that is not sanctioned by Allah, ? how do you judge??
-> Indeed following Bukhari, Muslim and others in any religious matter that is not sanctioned by Allah is nothing but following conjectures, and because these conjectures are religious related then this will constitute Shirk type 2, however most polytheists follow nothing but conjectures? And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture;?, here is other news for those polytheists type 2 who follow conjectures in religious matters ? surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.?, the truth mentioned is the Quran of course (it is the only truthful book the believes have), and sure the Truth (the Quran) is exposing their shirk fair and square as we have seen so far.
Indeed Allah mentioned the second type of Shirk using the two words ? ? ?Shurakaakum? and ? ? ?Shurakaahum? ?Your partners? and ?Their partners? respectively 15 times compared with the 5 times He talked about the first type of Shirk represented by the word ? ?, ?Shurakaai? ?My Partners? this indicates that the second type of shirk is far more common by humans.
You have to understand that the start of the Shirk by humans has seeded from Satan himself, because if we obey him in what is clearly the opposite to what Allah told us then we have shirked, i.e. obeying Satan is a clear cut shirk. In fact satan will expose those who followed him and will tell then that they shirked by listening to him, this will happen on in the JD.
This crystal clear fact of SHIRKING SATAN WITH ALLAH when we obey satan, will be told to those ignorant humans by satan himself on the JD
And Satan will say when the matter is decided It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.
(22)
-> See, when the JD verdict is passed, Satan will tell whoever he managed to invite and flaw ? And Satan will say when the matter is decided It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you.?, the fact of the matter is, Satan never had authority on us but a mere invitation ? I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me?, but he can?t be blamed because he didn?t force them ? then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls.?, in fact both will be crying hard at that time ? I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine.?, then he will tell them that their actions was SHIRK ? I reject your former act in associating me with Allah.?
From all the above there is no doubt that the ones been worshipped in the verses mohmed boofhead posted are only talking about those among the humans and the jinn who are misguided themselves by joining satan party then continued to deceive other humans and jinn by lying and saying the opposite about what Allah says, when we follow those misguided ones by listening and obeying what they say which is the opposite to what Allah says then we shirked and on the JD both the Mushrikoon and their associates will be gathered in hell together as the verses posted by mohmed boofhead
It is also clear that the majority of the Muslims are committing shirk without even realizing it, just look at how most Muslims talks about the heresay hadith and prophet Mohammad while they hardly talk about Allah through His Quran, they even reach the extreme level of shirk that when they mention Allah and His prophet in the same sentence they only praise the prophet and not Allah, they even abbreviate the name Allah to the letter A in (SAW) while the name Mohammad is written in full and never been abbreviated, we have seen the kafirs on FFI web site doing it with the name Mohammad by abbreviating to Mo so the Mushrikoon followed their foot steps and did it with the name Allah and made it A, no wonder we read the following verse in the Quran
And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
(106)
Do I really need to Adao Allah to help those confused Muslims?, well while I hope it happens, I won?t end my comment by asking Allah to guide them because it will never happen unless they change and confront their clear cut shirk, here is a photo from a so called Islamic country (Egypt) showing the two names next to each other ?Allah and Mohammad?, this photo is taken by me personally a few month back in a cemetery in Egypt, ironically you will see both names next to each other every where, even stickers on cars and public transport
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/shirk.jpg
Salam
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer. While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation
Hello
I agree, that is why we have to stick to the LITERAL meaning of the Quran unless there is a compelling reason not to do so
and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer.
I totally agree
While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
I say, its confusion for all
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
I'm not a Quran aloner though, you may conisder me a sunni like you, in fact this is how I'm preceived on this web site, so let's make this discussion from a sunni to a sunni, can you please reply to my long thread?
I actually posted it on a clear cut sunni forum www.islammessage.com and yet to have an answer, I encouraged them to prove me wrong and you are very welcome to do so
take care
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One thing i noticed here is everyone have their own intepretation and the more you read and read the more you realize that people are confused about everything from shirk, to haj, to the ka'ba and nobody has an answer. While Sunnis throw answers that is never really a solution but an answer, here it seems people will not even give you a unified answer. Its a free for all.
Maybe thats how you like it but its kind of hard having a discussion when nobody has an answer that agrees with the other person. I think now i understand the aloners part in Quran aloners.
Just because no one agrees with your "tawssul" theory as not a kind of shirk, you haste in labelling people as confused and as having their own interpretation? Come on, we are here to learn and benefit from each other, so we must have our different understandings. Every one of us has a prior text, be it sunnism, shiism, atheism, judaism, christian(ism)...and we are trying to get rid of this luggage. While doing so, different understandings come up. This is quite healthy. This is change, and unless you change what you have been doing you can't advance. God orders us to change when we find that we are stagnant and not moving forward.
And AhmedBahgat
Salaam(me again)
This is a very good detailed post. I hope you always engage in serious fruitful discussions.
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And AhmedBahgat
Salaam(me again)
This is a very good detailed post. I hope you always engage in serious fruitful discussions.
Hello Samia
No worries, let's cross our fingers to get an answer from our sunni brothers though, I'm waiting for months to be honest, I will still welcome to be proven wrong using the Quran by anyone
Salam