Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Salam sis Samia,
What does this verse mean? That churches, mosques...etc are not demolished because God pushed people some with some? What does that mean? (where did you get this "elevated and seculed"? It is not in the Arabic origin).
The verse does not describe any of the people. In fact it says people pushing each other. I think it means that thanks to those who were oppressed and insisted on their believe, even when they were kicked out of their homes, that the name of God is still remembered and the message is going on. Those who would be pushed out of their homes for religious reasons will have all their religious culture wiped out, not necessarily places of prayer only. (example Muslims and Jews being kicked out of Spain). Ironically, the mosque "building" stayed, but no trace of Islam.
Thanks for the irrelevant answers.
The mention of these "places of prayer" is just a symbol of the belief in God.
Yes, the places of prayer are also the symbols of the belief in God, thats why even just seeing a photo we can tell which place belongs to who. However the question was about the Masjid as a physical place not only the mental state etc.
Thanks, Hamsa
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confused
I was not answering anything, I was, in fact, asking where you got "elevated and seculed" since it is not in the original verse.
Okies,
Did you check the original verse?
Anyways I just copied that from http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
I think its not wrong though, for elevated you should check the root sad-mim-3 -
Okies,
Did you check the original verse?
Anyways I just copied that from http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
I think its not wrong though, for elevated you should check the root sad-mim-3Yes I did.
Lobster also posted a transliteration of the original.
It does not matter what it means. It is not there, and that changes the meaning of the verse, because it is not the "elevated" who are making the pushing against the "unelevated", but it is people in general pushing each other.
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Yes I did.
Lobster also posted a transliteration of the original.
It does not matter what it means. It is not there, and that changes the meaning of the verse, because it is not the "elevated" who are making the pushing against the "unelevated", but it is people in general pushing each other.
Ah, thanks sis for clarification!
But what do you think about Masjid as physical place?
peace
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Salaam Samia
I think traces of Islam were long lost before people were kicked out of Spain.
I agree, but "mosques" were, and are still there, and people were probably praying in them. Maybe the verse is not condoning those buildings, and is telling that people are just competing in buildings, otherwise, if they were competing in the right way, those buildings should have been demolished.
That's why I asked where this (elevated and seculed people) came from. It changes the meaning, and might even misguide to the wrong understanding.
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Samia
Salaam Raj-ah
Allow me to comment on your reply to Agentxxxx's
I do not think you understood what he is asking about, because the reply does not provide the answer. He is quoting a verse that confirms no messenger was sent to the people of Muhammad before him; so what was Ibraheem doing there in Mecca, and whom was he inviting to the "house" of God.
Quote from Raj-ah on May 17, 2007, 051016 AM
Abraham?s son Ishmael was a teenager when he and his mother were sent away by Sarah to live on their own (Genesis 16 &17)According to the quraan, Ibraheem and his WIFE were an old couple when he had his first son. (1439), and his second and third sons (1172; 5129) Sara (if she exists) was definitely old, too. Why would she send them away? How could she dare punish a prophet by exiling him and his teenage son (he was then even older than when he had him) into the wilderness? And he just obeys her and leaves his people? What made him return back? The quraan does not mention two wives for Ibraheem. He had all three sons (Ismael, Izhaaq and Yacob) all during his old age. This story told by genesis does not hold water with what the quraan tells us.
It started with "allow me to comment" so where is the comment?
I never discussed the verse presented by agentxx as first I was trying to establish according to Quran the Hajj performed is in the same place which is Mecca. If you have any comment on those let me know?
Your commentary on Sarah, Isamail, and the verse you quoted in next post.
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Samia
It started with "allow me to comment" so where is the comment?I never discussed the verse presented by agentxx as first I was trying to establish according to Quran the Hajj performed is in the same place which is Mecca. If you have any comment on those let me know?
Your commentary on Sarah, Isamail, and the verse you quoted in next post.
Raj-ah
I did not say " allow me to comment". I said "allow me to comment on your reply to agentxxx's", followed by my comment on your reply to agentxxx's.
Here's agentxxx's question to youOk brother raj-ah fine!....but was this built by Ibrahim and his son? if so then i would like you to enlighten me by explaining this verse.
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.And this was your reply
Agentxxx
Quote
Raj-ah- This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Ok brother raj-ah fine!....but was this built by Ibrahim and his son? if so then i would like you to enlighten me by explaining this verse.
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.yesterday I heard on Geo TV that the prophet's mother was buried at Abwa a place 600 km from Mecca...where is Abwa? I couldn't find it on the Map...and can somebody explain the background of her death 600 km from Mecca?
Regarding Geo TV, do you think it is an authenticated source?
Qur?an lays stress on the religion of Ibrahim, presenting Islam as a return to the purity of the religion of Ibrahim which, obscured by Judaism and Christianity, shone forth in its original brightness in the Qur?an. The pilgrimage?s to the Ka?aba and ritual progressions around the building were continued after Muhammad cleaned it from idols but now for the glorification of One God. The Abrahimic vision of the Ka?aba created a means of discerning an orthodox origin buried in the midst of pagan malpractices to which the first muslims pointed the way.
Quran
Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.Those who received the scripture, and know it as it should be known, will believe in this. As for those who disbelieve, they are the losers.
We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point/model for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
It says that Abraham and Ismail were ordered by Allah to purify this house and not to built for the first time but may be rebuilt or rennovate, meaning that this house existed before them.
So my understanding is that this building existed before Abraham and Ismail and they only purified it by removing idols etc.
But regarding the question is this the same building which is in Mecca, YES as the Quran clearly tells us
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
Allah appointed Abraham to establish the shrine on basis that we should not idolize any other god besides Allah and not on the basis it existed before.
Another translation
And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves.Prophecy
And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.Hajj shall be observed in the specified months. Whoever sets out to observe Hajj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout Hajj. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence.
Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?
You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and
Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) betweenUmrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retributionWhere else do people stop cutting their hairs until sacrifice of the animal is done? Where else do people during HAjj offer Kafara in the shape of Fasting during HAjj??
You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord (through commerce). When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate GOD at the Sacred Location (of Muzdalifah). You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.
Where else do in the world we see trading during Hajj season, and the place Arafat?
If all these things mentioned in Quran combined happen some where else other then Mecca, Then is the case of those who impressed by Jewish and Christian missionaries propoganda say that Kaaba is not the place Abraham was assigned to purify.
Further proof for Abraham and ISmail rebuilding KAaba
A line in the Book of Jubilees (2013) mentions that the descendants of Abraham's son by Hagar, Ishmael, as well as his descendants by Keturah, became the "Arabians" or "Arabs". The 1st century Jewish historian Josephus similarly described the descendants of Ishmael (i.e. the Ishmaelites) as an "Arabian" people. He also calls Ishmael the "founder" (ς of the "Arabians". Some Biblical scholars also believe that the area outlined in Genesis as the final destination of Ishmael and his descendants ("from Havilah to Assyria" refers to the Arabian peninsula. This has led to a commonplace view that modern Semitic-speaking Arabs are descended from Abraham via Ishmael, in addition to various other tribes who intermixed with the Ishmaelites, such as Joktan, Sheba, Dedan, Broham, etc. Both Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions speak of earlier inhabitants of Arabia.
Abraham?s son Ishmael was a teenager when he and his mother were sent away by Sarah to live on their own (Genesis 16 &17)
Meccans who were known for memorizing and repeating the family tree and praising renknown members of the family tree have provided us with the tree which leads from Muhammad to Ismail.
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Peace Hamsa, Nadeem, all,
In churches Jesus is remembered more than The God so I don't think that this is what is meant by "biyaa3un" in 2240. Similarly, "sawaami3u", "salawaatun", and "masaajid" don't refer to physical places in 2240.
I don't think that 2240 is talking about primarily physical places. When one says the government is destroyed, this doesn't necessarily mean just that the physical building that houses the government is destroyed. A government could function with its physical building destroyed. Similarly, an institution of obedience can function even after the building that houses it has been destroyed. The only case where it will not function is where the building itself is idolized and is regarded as sacred. This is why for example the Jewish temple institution doesn't function. They are waiting until they can rebuild the temple.
So I think that the destruction talked about in 2240 is about destroying the institution and not just the physical building. For superficial and weak institutions that do not have a solid base, destroying the physical building that they idolize will destroy them. But if you and I and people who trust in the god have formed a government somewhere and then the physical building of that government is destroyed, it wouldn't matter. The institution would still be intact because we don't take our building as sacred.
"Masjid" is derived from "sujud", and "sujud" is primarily mental. Everything has a physical and mental aspect. Even imagination has a mental aspect and then there is for example the art work that people produce using their imagination which is the physical aspect. When it comes to "sujud" to The God, only the mental aspect matters. The mental aspect then controls your physical actions that you obey The God through. For example, giving charity is a physical action of obedience to The God. Even sectarians acknowledge the fact that "sujud" to The God is primarily mental. Therefore when you tell them that physically there is no difference between prostrating to the Kaaba and prostrating towards the Kaaba, they will tell you that their intention is to prostrate to The God and not to the object. So they know that intention (i.e., the mental sujud) is what matters. So nothing about what we are saying is extraordinary and everyone naturally knows it.
People confuse the institution of "masjid" with the physical "bayt"/house. The physical "bayt"/house is the physical building that houses the institution of "masjid". Everything mentioned in 2240 is an institution of some sort. As for archeological evidence, it actually confirms that "masjid" was not a place for physical prostration but was the government institution. Hence, in early congregational sites, you find them also serving as the house of the governor for that province. Sure the physical place is one aspect of a "masjid" in the same way that the physical building of the government or the court is one aspect of those institutions but it is not the primary aspect or what defines them. This is how "house" and "masjid" are related. The "house" is the physical building of the institution of "masjid".
It is completely normal that people may call a building by the institution that it houses. For example, people can say "this is the court" when pointing to the building that houses the institution of justice of the court. This doesn't mean that the court is only a physical building or that the physical building is the defining aspect of the court.
The word "qibla" literally mean "target". Of course a target can be physical or non-physical. We are never told that our target is "al-bayt al-haram" (the physical aspect of al-masjid al-haram) instead we are told that our target is "al-masjid al-haram".
I think that "masjid" can only be an institution of obedience (i.e. an institution of authority) since the primary defining aspect of "sujud" is obedience. The physical aspect is irrelevant. All the confusion arises from the fact that "sujud" has primarily become a mechanical ritual and the fact that sectarians don't know the difference between "al-bayt al-haram" (the physical place) and "al-masjid al-haram" (the institution) and they use those terms interchangeably. On the other hand, The God doesn't choose His words haphazardly so they are definitely not interchangeable.
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Hello All
It seems that many misunderstand 2240, there is no doubt that the word "Fiha" only talks about the Masajid in 2240, not the others (Sawami, Baia, Salawat), let's have a look at the Arabic words
(40)
-> See what it says " ", the word "Fiha" is two words "Fi Ha", i.e. the singular Ha referes to a fiminine word which is the "Masajid"
If the word "Fi" is for all other things (Sawami, Baia and Masajid) then IT MUST BE "FI HUM" and looks like this ""
I.e. 2240 is telling us that ONLY the Masajid are the ones that the Name of Allah is mentioned a lot in it, not the other 3
Salam
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Peace Tanveer,
people can say "this is the court" when pointing to the building
It means building should be there when referring to court. BUILDING IS A MUST.
Institution of justice = court = (BUILDING + System of justice)
Countries where there is no justice doesn't mean that there are no buildings "courts" but we would say the system of justice is not there.
Instutuion of obedience = Masjid = (BUILDING + System of God's laws)
Similarly, Masjids are there in the world but system of God's laws is not there.
Then why to say that Masjid is not a mosque?
And also is the following translation correct according to you?
FM
2240. The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and connections, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.Salam
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Peace Hamsa,
It means building should be there when referring to court. BUILDING IS A MUST.
Institution of justice = court = (BUILDING + System of justice)
You are right that a building is a must. However, in qur'aanic terminology, this building is referred to as "bayt"/house and the institution of obedience housed by that building is referred to as "masjid".
Countries where there is no justice doesn't mean that there are no buildings "courts" but we would say the system of justice is not there.
By saying "countries where there is no justice doesn't mean that there are no buildings "courts" but we would say the system of justice is not there" you are admitting yourself that it is the system of justice that is primarily important and not the physical buildings
Then if someone refers to "justice", one would be referring to the "system of justice" and not the physical building !
Instutuion of obedience = Masjid = (BUILDING + System of God's laws)
WRONG !
According to the qur'aanic terminology
Institution of obedience to The God's laws = masjid
The physical building in which this masjid is housed = bayt
Similarly, Masjids are there in the world but system of God's laws is not there.
Correct would be "bayts/houses are there in the world but masjid/institution of obedience to The God's laws is not there."
Then why to say that Masjid is not a mosque?
Because the "mosque" is the "bayt", not the "masjid". Capisce ? (pronounced kapeesh)
And also is the following translation correct according to you?
FM
2240. The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and connections, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.No, "sawaami3u", "biyaa3un", "salawaatun", and "masaajidu" mentioned in 2240 are all institutions of some sort.
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Hello All
It seems that many misunderstand 2240, there is no doubt that the word "Fiha" only talks about the Masajid in 2240, not the others (Sawami, Baia, Salawat), let's have a look at the Arabic words
(40)
-> See what it says " ", the word "Fiha" is two words "Fi Ha", i.e. the singular Ha referes to a fiminine word which is the "Masajid"
If the word "Fi" is for all other things (Sawami, Baia and Masajid) then IT MUST BE "FI HUM" and looks like this ""
I.e. 2240 is telling us that ONLY the Masajid are the ones that the Name of Allah is mentioned a lot in it, not the other 3
Salam
Salaam Ahmed
is correct, not , just as it is correct for "masaajid", which is also plural. Remember that the plural for non human is treated as a singular feminine.
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By saying "countries where there is no justice doesn't mean that there are no buildings "courts" but we would say the system of justice is not there" you are admitting yourself that it is the system of justice that is primarily important and not the physical buildings Wink
You are right that a building is a must.
According to the qur'aanic terminology
The physical building in which this masjid is housed = bayt
According to Quranic terminology or according to YOUR terminology? Please dont confuse it.
"sawaami3u", "biyaa3un", "salawaatun", and "masaajidu" mentioned in 2240 are all institutions of some sort.
You are simply unable to translate 2240 and constantly avoiding to translate it which is a clear proof that no falsehood can enter the Quran. Can you please provide us the literal translation of that verse?
Salam, Hamsa
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Salaam Tanveer
As for archeological evidence, it actually confirms that "masjid" was not a place for physical prostration but was the government institution.
This is the first time I heard of such archeological evidence in this matter can you please give more details or the source.
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I think that "masjid" can only be an institution of obedience (i.e. an institution of authority) since the primary defining aspect of "sujud" is obedience.
That's linguistically correct, and historically supported. Remember that what we call now "masjid" was known as "jame3 gatherer", where people usually "gathered" for the congregational salaat (salaatul jumu3a), the only salaat prformed in group. Hence we hear of aljame3 alnabawi the prophet's mosque, aljame3ul umaway the umaiyyad's mosque, jame3 Qurduba, ...which are among the oldest mosques.
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Salaam Ahmed
is correct, not , just as it is correct for "masaajid", which is also plural. Remember that the plural for non human is treated as a singular feminine.
Greeting Samia
I'm sorry I can't accept your argument that the plural for non human is treated as a singular feminine, it can only be as such if there is only one non human plural in the sentence , but NOT when have more than one non human plural with a WAW in between, if you search the Quran you will find that the singular masculine "Fi Hi" and the dual "Fi Huma" are used for non humans as well, what is noted that when there is dual non human plurals with a waw in between like "Alsamaa Wa Al Ard" the word must be "Fi Huma", i.e. when we have more than two plurals then it has to be "Fi Huma" or ?Fi Hunna?, I have never heard of the rule you mentioned unless it is ONE NON HUMAN PLUAR in the sentence
Actually sound wise it is very odd within the sentence with many waws between the non human plural, UNLESS IT IS ONLY REFERRING TO AL MASAAJID
Let me show you a couple of examples where the word ?Fi Hunna? which is Plural feminine is used for non humans feminine plural and humans feminine plural
And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.
(127)
-> See, Hihunna is used with human feminine plural
And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?
(16)
-> In here Fihunna is used with feminine non human plural (the seven skies)
Here is an example for the word ?Fi Huma? used with non human dual and non human singular
And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and what He has spread forth in both of them of living beings; and when He pleases He is all-powerful to gather them together.
(29)
-> See, Fihuma is used with dual (non human plural and a singular)
Salam
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Peace Hamsa,
It means building should be there when referring to court. BUILDING IS A MUST.
Institution of justice = court = (BUILDING + System of justice)
Countries where there is no justice doesn't mean that there are no buildings "courts" but we would say the system of justice is not there.A building is not a must. One can have a court setup in open air. Does this make it not "the court"?
Walls, floors and ceiling don't contribute anything to justice.
Instutuion of obedience = Masjid = (BUILDING + System of God's laws)
Similarly, Masjids are there in the world but system of God's laws is not there.The building is not important. If people who insitute obedience decide to meet outside in a field somewhere it is OK.
Then why to say that Masjid is not a mosque?
A "masjid" is an institution while the Mosque is a gathering place. Even the Mosque doesn't have to be a building. In Egypt, I remember going to open air Mosques which weren't housed in a building.
And also is the following translation correct according to you?
FM
2240. The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and connections, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.I think that the FM translation is better than many others which are out there. The odd one out of course is "temples" because it is the wrong translation. Also, I am not sure exactly about the word "swami3". Here is a little more correct translation (corrected part underlined)
- The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and institutions of learning, and institutions of obedience where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.
Peace,
Ayman