Comments/Rebuttal to article by Wakas: An Understanding of Salat from Al Quran

ayman

Peace IQO,

Before I spend time to respond to all of your comments, let me first say that I have not read enough of your posts or recent posts included, to fully understand what is your position on "As-Salaat". But from what you have written here, it appears to me that you don't believe that "As-Salaat" is a "physical ritual" at all, or in any form. If this is correct, please let me know. If you believe that it is only some sort of mental exercise and that there are no physical rituals at all attached to this exercise, then I can better understand your comments. Currently the logic in your comments don't make much sense to me unless that is your belief. So I am asking a question instead of assuming here.

First, "salat", like everything else we do has a physical aspect. For example, giving charity has a physical aspect. However, if someone says you have to put your right hand in your left pocket and give to the poor person and then put your forehead on the floor three times, otherwise your charity is not valid, then the physical method becomes the primary aspect and this becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.

There is no evidence from the great reading that "salat" is a ritual. So I don't think that anyone should believe that "salat" is some kind of mechanical ritual like sectarians believe. My position on the learning connection ("al-salat&quot can be found here

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

Learning has a physical aspect. For example, you physically pick up a physical book and read it with your physical eyes to understand it. But the physical aspect is not the primary aspect. So if you read a book online it is OK. If a person listens to an audio recording of the book, it is still OK. Now if you tell people that they should take a book and kiss it three times and then put it on the table and spin seven times around it, otherwise their learning would be invalid, then the physical aspect becomes the most important and it becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.

Also, before I provide any evidence, are you suggesting that "Ad-Du'a" and "As-Salaat" are equivilant? Again I don't want to assume, so before I comment, I would like to know what your belief is. The rest of what I believe are errors, flaws in argument, or just wrong assumptions; I will save to comment on after you have responded to this post, insha Allah.

You are implying that "al-salat" and "al-du'a" are equivalent. I didn't propose that. You are saying that Al-salat = The Prayer. We know that Al-du'a = The Prayer too. So it is like saying a=c and we also know that b=c so you are implying that a=b or Al-salat=Al-du'a. You tried to circumvent this equivalency by making an argument based on the definite article, which as you saw was a fallacious argument.

We all know for certain that "al-salat"/"salat" doesn't mean "the prayer"/"prayer". Even you know that, unless you want to suggest that the god and his controllers pray on the prophet (3356) and on those who trust (3343). If so, then who do you think that the god needs to pray to!!!? and why does the god need to pray in the first place!!!? So despite everything you said, we all agree (one way or another) that "salat" doesn't mean prayer and that certainly it is not a ritual about putting the forehead on the floor a certain number of times. So you need to look for a different meaning. The correct meaning will be found by focusing on the purpose and effect of "salat" not on "the method". Everyone who focuses on the method is assuming a priori based on preconceptions that "salat" is a ritual. You cannot approach this subject with preconceptions. You have to make a clean start.

Peace,

Ayman

nerspi

peace

good post ayman. never thought of it like that.

we were also told we can pray while walking or riding horses. so i guess the physical may not be that important but the words are and honesty and sincerity.

but i still like doing the physical prayer, i feel it adds to the glorifying.
someone here once gave a good example, it's like when you tell your wife you love her but you also (physically) kiss her.

ImamQuranonly

As-Salaamu Alaikum ayman and all,

I pray that everyone is doing well, insha Allah. I have been spending a lot of time getting caught up on a lot of the articles on the forum. Even though I have been aware of this site for more than a couple of years, and I just recently started to post here; previoulsy I mostly just read the articles on here and haven't been following the posts here over the years. So there is quit a bit of material here to try to catch up on dealing only with the issue of As-Salaat; let alone all the other important posts here.

It is interesting to see the evolution one way or the other of topics and people on here. A lot of time I see the elements and knowledge of debate techniques being used here as evidence instead of real evidence itself. These are just some of my observations that I wanted to point out.

I can't post the rest of the book dealing with As-Salaat as of yet because I lost my hard-drive and the back up version is quite a bit old. I hadn't backed it up in over 3 months, so there was quite a bit of material that I had that was lost and that I am still trying to have someone to recover, Allah willing. In the meantime, I will take what I have and began to redo those sections and post them as soon as I finish each section, Allah willing.

Now to ayman's post

Peace IQO,

First, "salat", like everything else we do has a physical aspect. For example, giving charity has a physical aspect. However, if someone says you have to put your right hand in your left pocket and give to the poor person and then put your forehead on the floor three times, otherwise your charity is not valid, then the physical method becomes the primary aspect and this becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.

Peace again ayman bro,

We are in agreement that As-Salaat has a physical aspect to it, as well as Az-Zakaat. I have not said in any of my articles that if you don't do As-Salaat exactly like I say, then your "Salaat" is not valid. As a matter of fact, if you look at the table of contents that I posted of the book, I have an entire section that deals with why Allah says that He does not accept As-Salaat. I will post that soon, insha Allah.

Similar to you, I believe that the physical aspect of As-Salaat is not the most important; but rather it is the spiritual and mental part of it that is. Nevertheless, as I have stated in another post, I believe that Allah has enjoinded on us "rituals" as described by Him in Al-Quran, because a "ritual" perserves knowledge. You can contemplate and probably come up with many ways that a "ritual" does this as an assitance to the mental and spiritual aspect.

There is no evidence from the great reading that "salat" is a ritual. So I don't think that anyone should believe that "salat" is some kind of mechanical ritual like sectarians believe. My position on the learning connection ("al-salat&quot can be found here

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

This I firmly disagree with your opinion on. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that As-Salaat is a ritual. Equating every belief that you don't believe in to sectarians is no way to prove of it being a false belief. The physical aspects of washing, standing, reciting, bowing, prostrating, etc. are all mechanical; and that doesn't diminish their mental and spiritual higher purposes for being in existence as instructions by Allah.

I have read your article, and don't find it convincing. I will not spend a lot of time to rebute all of the points that can be rebuted, as I feel that is not necessary since I am not trying to win you over to my understanding. You seem intelligent enough and seem to study Al Quran, so whatever conclusions you have come to is where Allah has permitted and accepted you to be at this time. I am sure that you feel the same way about my understandings. Therefore that is not meant to be any type of insult, small or large. The way I see it, you have taken HUGE leaps to come to the conclusion that As-Salaat means "learning connection". I think it is a huge leap in "definition", not because the principal is not there. I definitely believe that As Salaat is a way for us to learn and a way for us to connect to Allah through the guidance that He has given us. Nevertheless, this is done by the ritual that He has instructed us to perform, and any other way that He has described for us in Al Quran. I certainly believe that As Salaat is not the only way in Al Quran that Allah has ordered us to "learn" and "connect" from or with Him.

Learning has a physical aspect. For example, you physically pick up a physical book and read it with your physical eyes to understand it. But the physical aspect is not the primary aspect. So if you read a book online it is OK. If a person listens to an audio recording of the book, it is still OK. Now if you tell people that they should take a book and kiss it three times and then put it on the table and spin seven times around it, otherwise their learning would be invalid, then the physical aspect becomes the most important and it becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.

Equating the instructions that we discuss here from Quran only to traditional or sunni practices that are not found in Al Quran is not a way to prove that rituals are not in Al Quran. If Allah wanted to tell us only to read and study Al Quran at Fajr and Isha, we would not need all the other ayat that deal with the "physical" aspect of it. Washing is not important to learning or a connection, yet we are told to do so before approaching As-Salaat. This is only a ritual that has physical and spiritual implications for us to learn about life and ourselves. Your definitions of the other parts of the ritual, may have some valid points, but they do not negate the physical funtions of these definitions as well. If Allah gives a ritual to perform, it is to perserve some aspect of the wisdom behind it. If you dont do it, you are disobeying Allah and it doesn't matter if it is the most important part or not; for even if it is the least important part, you are still disobeying. A ritual is also a reminder, to remind us of the higher purpose. If people become mindless in their rituals, perhaps by continously performing them, they may be reminded, insha Allah.

You are implying that "al-salat" and "al-du'a" are equivalent. I didn't propose that. You are saying that Al-salat = The Prayer. We know that Al-du'a = The Prayer too. So it is like saying a=c and we also know that b=c so you are implying that a=b or Al-salat=Al-du'a. You tried to circumvent this equivalency by making an argument based on the definite article, which as you saw was a fallacious argument.

Please don't put words into my "mouth", so to speak. It is clear to everyone who has read this that I don't believe As-Salaat and Al-Dua are equivalent. Just because we use the english word "prayer" to denote them, doesn't mean that they are the same. That is why in translating, to distinguish the difference, "The Prayer" is used to denote the specific functions ritual prescribed and described by Allah, and the other is simply translated as "prayer". We could have called them "The Ritual" (As-Salaat) and "The Calling"(Ad-Dua), but that doesn't express best in english how we convey the message of the idea that we are expressing. It seems that you are suggesting that there can only be one kind of "prayer". Let us not use logical fallacies such as a=b=c analogies to confused the clearly intended representations made by each other. We can all pick on semantics to find logical fallacies in written words, but that destroys the purpose and point of the discussion. I am not trying to prove my 100% infallible english grammar in my posts. I am trying to convey a message. If it is unclear, that is one thing. If you or anyone attempt to make it unclear by pointing out semantic deviations that are unimportant and clearly against the intent, then that serves no purpose for betterment. So I definitely don't see or agree that the argument is fallacious.

We all know for certain that "al-salat"/"salat" doesn't mean "the prayer"/"prayer". Even you know that, unless you want to suggest that the god and his controllers pray on the prophet (3356) and on those who trust (3343). If so, then who do you think that the god needs to pray to!!!? and why does the god need to pray in the first place!!!? So despite everything you said, we all agree (one way or another) that "salat" doesn't mean prayer and that certainly it is not a ritual about putting the forehead on the floor a certain number of times. So you need to look for a different meaning. The correct meaning will be found by focusing on the purpose and effect of "salat" not on "the method". Everyone who focuses on the method is assuming a priori based on preconceptions that "salat" is a ritual. You cannot approach this subject with preconceptions. You have to make a clean start.

Peace,

Ayman

Please don't speak for me and what I know. I do firmly belief that As-Salaat is best translated as "The Prayer". I understand what this means to me and believe that most people will understand this as well, including traditional muslims. What we differ on, traditionalists and myself, is how it is performed and where those functions are to be derived from. Therefore it appears on this issue, they are closer to me in my beliefs than you are if you perform not physical As-Salaat as described by Al Quran in my understanding of the subject. I could break that down, but I don't want it to be taken the wrong way, so I will leave it as what I said.

Also, 3343 and 3356 are not "As-Salaat". You can not group all the forms of a root word and try to make them mean all the same things. That would destroy the arabic language and take away is vibrant and expressive colors. You have to give weight to how Allah has chosen to vary the forms of grammar of the roots to express the different meanings intended. Confusing those who have not command of the arabic language by always pointing out that "salaat" can not equal prayer, is dishonest to the form of the root used. No word in Al Quran keeps the exact same meaning for all the different forms that the root is used in.

So you are wrong. We don't all agree with you that As-Salaat doesn't equal "The Prayer". I could be wrong, but I still believe that most on this forum believe that As-Salaat is "The Prayer". 15 or 20 of frequent posters does not set the standard for what most of the members believe. So no, I don't believe that Allah prays nor prays on anyone, nor does anything or anyone that isn't commiting shirk. All that perform As-Salaat that is accepted by Allah, are doing so only as is commanded by Allah. Obviously from Al Quran, how that is done can vary to a degree.

If you don't feel the necessity to prostrate yourself to the ground and bow in humbleness before Allah, then I can not help you with that. The advice is already in Al Quran about those who don't feel the need to do so. I am sure you have read it, but for whatever reason, Allah did not see fit for us to understand it the same way. I do not feel the need to search for a different meaning of As-Salaat because I understand that it is physical, mental and spiritual. I only feel the need to continue to gain and increase my knowledge and understanding of its function and benefits, Allah willing.

You act as if the only way the idea of physical As Salaat has come into anyone's mind is through preconceived notions from sectarians belief systems. I submit to you that my faith in this aspect of As Salaat is based strictly from Al Quran only, and that maybe your obsession with finding or proving that it has no physical aspect to it is in reaction to your aversion to sectarian perversion of the truth and how it has affected you in your past life. Allahu Alim.

As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace

ayman

Peace IQO,

We are in agreement that As-Salaat has a physical aspect to it, as well as Az-Zakaat. I have not said in any of my articles that if you don't do As-Salaat exactly like I say, then your "Salaat" is not valid. As a matter of fact, if you look at the table of contents that I posted of the book, I have an entire section that deals with why Allah says that He does not accept As-Salaat. I will post that soon, insha Allah.

What is there to accept or reject about "salat"? Is there any passage in the great reading that says that the god doesn't accept "salat"? The learning connection/"salat" is for our own benefit it is not somekind of ritual to get bonus points. You can sometimes learn a little or learn a lot. The key is to persist in learning and not be satisfied with mechnically following mindless rituals.

Similar to you, I believe that the physical aspect of As-Salaat is not the most important; but rather it is the spiritual and mental part of it that is. Nevertheless, as I have stated in another post, I believe that Allah has enjoinded on us "rituals" as described by Him in Al-Quran, because a "ritual" perserves knowledge. You can contemplate and probably come up with many ways that a "ritual" does this as an assitance to the mental and spiritual aspect.

A ritual makes something mechanical. By making it mechanical, the physical part becomes the most important part.

This I firmly disagree with your opinion on. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that As-Salaat is a ritual.

A ritual has a systematic mechnical method. If "salat" was a ritual for which there is a tremendous amount of evidence then you wouldn't have had to write a book trying to figure out the steps and put them as Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, Step 4, Step 5. Do you think that the god is not as organized as you and can't list such supposed ritual steps in an orderly fashion like you? I think that you need to make a clean start with a more humble attitude. Do not think for even one second that you can clarify the god's book.

If there was a tremendous amount of evidence for somekind of tritual then people wouldn't be struggling with this issue. On the other hand, the reason why people have been struggling with this issue is that they have a preconception that it is a ritual and therefore they are working backwards to find the method in order to justify their preconception.

If there was a tremendous amount of evidence then why are you basing your entire thesis on the false rule that you invented which claims that the definite article "al" completely changes the meaning of a word?

Equating every belief that you don't believe in to sectarians is no way to prove of it being a false belief. The physical aspects of washing, standing, reciting, bowing, prostrating, etc. are all mechanical; and that doesn't diminish their mental and spiritual higher purposes for being in existence as instructions by Allah.

If you are satisfied with mechanical rituals then good for you, you can just mechanically do those things a thousand times. There are many people who do those things five times or more per day and yet they are misguided and those mechnical acts do not help them one bit.

I have read your article, and don't find it convincing. I will not spend a lot of time to rebute all of the points that can be rebuted, as I feel that is not necessary since I am not trying to win you over to my understanding. You seem intelligent enough and seem to study Al Quran, so whatever conclusions you have come to is where Allah has permitted and accepted you to be at this time. I am sure that you feel the same way about my understandings. Therefore that is not meant to be any type of insult, small or large. The way I see it, you have taken HUGE leaps to come to the conclusion that As-Salaat means "learning connection". I think it is a huge leap in "definition", not because the principal is not there. I definitely believe that As Salaat is a way for us to learn and a way for us to connect to Allah through the guidance that He has given us. Nevertheless, this is done by the ritual that He has instructed us to perform, and any other way that He has described for us in Al Quran. I certainly believe that As Salaat is not the only way in Al Quran that Allah has ordered us to "learn" and "connect" from or with Him.

What other way is there?

Equating the instructions that we discuss here from Quran only to traditional or sunni practices that are not found in Al Quran is not a way to prove that rituals are not in Al Quran. If Allah wanted to tell us only to read and study Al Quran at Fajr and Isha, we would not need all the other ayat that deal with the "physical" aspect of it. Washing is not important to learning or a connection, yet we are told to do so before approaching As-Salaat.

Washing first thing in the morning when you wake up and when you end your day is important and it does help clear the mind. I don't know about you, but when I wake up in the morning and come back from work in the evening, unless I wash, I cannot function, let alone learn.

This is why washing in the morning when they wake up and in the evening when they get back home is what most people naturally do.

This is only a ritual that has physical and spiritual implications for us to learn about life and ourselves. Your definitions of the other parts of the ritual, may have some valid points, but they do not negate the physical funtions of these definitions as well. If Allah gives a ritual to perform, it is to perserve some aspect of the wisdom behind it. If you dont do it, you are disobeying Allah and it doesn't matter if it is the most important part or not; for even if it is the least important part, you are still disobeying. A ritual is also a reminder, to remind us of the higher purpose. If people become mindless in their rituals, perhaps by continously performing them, they may be reminded, insha Allah.

Mechnical rituals are inherently mindless. They are certainly not reminders because the ritual inevitably becomes an end in itself and people are not focused on the purpose. They are focused on repeating things however many times their method tells them.

Please don't put words into my "mouth", so to speak. It is clear to everyone who has read this that I don't believe As-Salaat and Al-Dua are equivalent. Just because we use the english word "prayer" to denote them, doesn't mean that they are the same.

Then you have to use a different English word to denote "salat". Adding "The" and capitalizing the "P" doesn't accomplish anything other than demonstrate that you don't know the meaning of "salat" and thus are unable to translate it properly.

That is why in translating, to distinguish the difference, "The Prayer" is used to denote the specific functions ritual prescribed and described by Allah, and the other is simply translated as "prayer".

But the "prayer" in "the prayer" is exactly the same as "prayer". Adding the "the" makes it definite but doesn't change the meaning one bit. So you are basing your entire thesis on a false linguistic argument.

We could have called them "The Ritual" (As-Salaat) and "The Calling"(Ad-Dua), but that doesn't express best in english how we convey the message of the idea that we are expressing.

If you think that "The Ritual" fits better then use that. If you don't understand "salat" enough to be able to translate it and express it in English then you should refrain from making a conclusion until you can.

It seems that you are suggesting that there can only be one kind of "prayer". Let us not use logical fallacies such as a=b=c analogies to confused the clearly intended representations made by each other. We can all pick on semantics to find logical fallacies in written words, but that destroys the purpose and point of the discussion.

But superficial semantics is exactly what you have based your entire argument on. You have imagined a semantic difference between the "prayer" in "the prayer" and the "prayer" in "prayer" and have then proceeded to build your thesis on you invented semantic rules.

I am not trying to prove my 100% infallible english grammar in my posts. I am trying to convey a message. If it is unclear, that is one thing. If you or anyone attempt to make it unclear by pointing out semantic deviations that are unimportant and clearly against the intent, then that serves no purpose for betterment. So I definitely don't see or agree that the argument is fallacious.

Your message is not unclear. It is quite clear that you are saying that there is a difference in meaning between the word prayer when used in the definite and when it is used in the indefinite. This is clearly a fallacious argument in any language.

Please don't speak for me and what I know. I do firmly belief that As-Salaat is best translated as "The Prayer". I understand what this means to me and believe that most people will understand this as well, including traditional muslims.

No one here can go in your head, we can only judge the soundness of your argument by your words. If you really understood what it means, then you would have been able to translate it properly and not have had to rely on false linguistic arguments about the definite article.

What we differ on, traditionalists and myself, is how it is performed and where those functions are to be derived from. Therefore it appears on this issue, they are closer to me in my beliefs than you are if you perform not physical As-Salaat as described by Al Quran in my understanding of the subject. I could break that down, but I don't want it to be taken the wrong way, so I will leave it as what I said.

As I said all along, you and sectarians and everyone who is focused on the method will not reach any better understanding on the subject. The only way to reach a better understanding is to start from the purpose and the effect.

Also, 3343 and 3356 are not "As-Salaat". You can not group all the forms of a root word and try to ake them mean all the same things.

The form of "salat" in 3343 and 3356 is not a different "form" as you claim. If you know Arabic then you should know that is has the same weight ("wazn&quot and same exact form in 3343 as in 339 fo example. Are you implying that in 339 it doesn't mean "pray"? By trying to use the false argument of the defnite article again, you are demonstrating your ignorance of the fact that in this case we are talking about verbs and not nouns and the definite article doesn't apply to verbs. So how do you differentiate in the case of verbs? Of course you can't answer.

That would destroy the arabic language and take away is vibrant and expressive colors.

This sounds nice and fuzzy but has no substance.

You have to give weight to how Allah has chosen to vary the forms of grammar of the roots to express the different meanings intended. Confusing those who have not command of the arabic language by always pointing out that "salaat" can not equal prayer, is dishonest to the form of the root used. No word in Al Quran keeps the exact same meaning for all the different forms that the root is used in.

What are you talking about? If you don't know you should simply learn and research the subject before making such false statements with such proud tone. We are not talking about different forms. The same exact form and in fact the same exact word is used in 3343 and 339. Also, the same exact word (and of course same exact form) is used in 9103, 984 and 1082. Also, the present tense form of a past tense keep the same meaning. You can see this in 3356 and 4102 where the only difference is that in 4102 the verb is in the present tense.

So you are wrong. We don't all agree with you that As-Salaat doesn't equal "The Prayer".

No I am not wrong. You agreed above that "al-salat" doesn't equal "the prayer" in 3343 and 3356. Everyone agrees on that. You agree despite your best efforts to get out of the implication of such agreement by claiming that "they are different forms". Of course, in your haste, you forgot to check the other occurences of the same exact forms in the great reading. I advise you to use patience and the learning connection.

I could be wrong, but I still believe that most on this forum believe that As-Salaat is "The Prayer". 15 or 20 of frequent posters does not set the standard for what most of the members believe. So no, I don't believe that Allah prays nor prays on anyone, nor does anything or anyone that isn't commiting shirk. All that perform As-Salaat that is accepted by Allah, are doing so only as is commanded by Allah. Obviously from Al Quran, how that is done can vary to a degree.

Can anyone who believes that "al-salat" means "the prayer" according to 3343, 3356 and 9103 please speak up?

If you don't feel the necessity to prostrate yourself to the ground and bow in humbleness before Allah, then I can not help you with that.

People prostrate and disobey the god and they bow but are arrogant. The physical prostration doesn't magically change them into obedient servants of the god no more than physical bowing makes anyone truly humble.

The advice is already in Al Quran about those who don't feel the need to do so. I am sure you have read it, but for whatever reason, Allah did not see fit for us to understand it the same way. I do not feel the need to search for a different meaning of As-Salaat because I understand that it is physical, mental and spiritual. I only feel the need to continue to gain and increase my knowledge and understanding of its function and benefits, Allah willing.

If you think that it is physical then you should obey the god and prostrate according to what you believe is the physical prostration he told us about in 17107. You should physically prostrate to the chin and not to the forehead.

You act as if the only way the idea of physical As Salaat has come into anyone's mind is through preconceived notions from sectarians belief systems. I submit to you that my faith in this aspect of As Salaat is based strictly from Al Quran only, and that maybe your obsession with finding or proving that it has no physical aspect to it is in reaction to your aversion to sectarian perversion of the truth and how it has affected you in your past life.

I have no problem with physical prostration if you understand it this way. But then you have to obey the god as best as you can and prostrate to the chin and not to the forehead as per 17107. There is not a single passage in the great reading that tells us to prostrate to the forehead. Prostrating to the chin is not difficult. The difficulty is in doing it in a way that is different from preconceptions.

Peace,

Ayman

nerspi

peace

you know what i find strange. that the both of you are muslim, both of you believe in one God, both of you ask for guidence, yet only one of you can be guided.
one of you can be right. so which one?
is imamquranonly guided and right or ayman?

it's also strange that all other muslims, sunnis, wahabis... they also ask for guidence, yet they follow hadith or imams... more then qur'an and they don't do things according to qur'an, so did God guide them? because they did ask for guidence.

now, imamquranonly presented verses from quran how salat (prayer) is to be performed.
so, ayman, could you present verses from quran about how to perform salat that is different from the way iqo said?
since it doesn't mean prayer and if it's not something physical, what is it?
how to do it?

unknownuser

Peace Nerspi,

I think you are misunderstanding what brother Ayman is saying. Every thing has mental and physical aspects. Brother Ayman can correct me if I am wrong but he is not denying the physical aspects of salaat; instead he is saying that the mental aspects are more important, thus salaat is PRIMARILY mental.

For example, I don't think he is denying a physical "sujud" to the chin during salaat, but he is saying that the mental aspect of "sujud" i.e. obedience to The God after learning from His signs during salaat is the more important aspect. Therefore, a physical "sujud" to the chin is not a "sujud" if it is not accompanied by obedience to The God. Furthermore, even though a physical sujud is not of primary importance, when it is performed it should be to the chin per al-qur'aan, and not upon the forehead as the sectarians do.

He is telling us that the PURPOSE and the EFFECT of salaat is of primary importance, and the physical aspects are of secondary importance. Hence one of the important things in salaat is remembrance of The God; the exact anatomical position in which The God is remembered does not matter, as long as the purpose of remembrance of The God is accomplished with the desired effect.

Another important thing is reading The God's signs with understanding for the purpose of learning from them and implementing The God's message in our life. The exact physical position in which one performs that reading is not as important, as long as we learn from The God's signs and then implement His message in our lives with the effect of making us pure, humble, and obedient to The God.

If one does not learn anything from one's salaat and does not become humble and obedient to The God and does not purify oneself as a result of salaat, then it will not be salaat even if all the physical aspects/rituals are performed with surgical accuracy. That is why The God does not describe the exact anatomical positions during salaat with precision, because they are not as important as the mental aspects.

Taking the analogy of one's wife that you provided, if one says that he loves his wife and then physically kisses her but does not really mean the words and that kiss fails to bring forth or bolster a loving relationship between them, then the kiss is not really a kiss, and he does not really love her !

nerspi

peace

so i guess they're both guided and right.
it just seemed to me they didn't agree on salat.

unknownuser

Peace Nerspi,

They disagree on some things.

For example

Brother Ayman translates "salaat" as "learning connection", whereas brother IQO translates it as "The Prayer", for which the actual arabic should be "ad-dua".

Brother Ayman does not consider salaat to be a "ritual", because rituals are primarily mechanical and imply a primarily physical aspect rather than a primarily mental aspect, whereas brother IQO considers salaat to be a ritual, thus implying that salaat has a primarily physical aspect.

Looking at them actually performing the salaat, however, you might find that their salaat "appears" identical !

ImamQuranonly

Peace ayman,

I find your arguments disingenious and misleading for those who don't know. To spend endless hours going in circles with you over minute points would be pointless, as I can see from the many times this has been done with people who take superiority positions like yourself. If you think rituals don't perserve any knowledge or have a purpose as per Allah, then how many people do you think are reading the Quran daily, studying it, and still confused? You can't make physical rituals mindless and useless just because everyone is not completely enlightened by them during the time frame that you think is reasonable. Life is a process of growth and everyone in it has their own time table, if they are to grow. Your supposed mental only method of As-Salaat with no physical aspect loses the fact that we are physical human beings in a physical world. The people I have met with thinking like yours love to live in the spiritual clouds, but what does it benefit you? To have a full life on this earth, you will need to engage the physical, mental, spiritual and emotional aspects of being a human being. If you leave out the physical aspect, as you would prefer to do with As Salaat, then how will you be a benefit to mankind? Do you even care to be? Of course we will return to Allah alone, but we also have a purpose for this existence.

The points you make below I could rebute on an individual basis. I hope that you don't think that by my not doing so, you have made the better points. I just see to rebute them with you as pointless at this point, because you discredit many important points that I see clearly that Allah has put in Al Quran. Many of my points you ignored or didn't bother to answer properly, or diverted attention by focusing in on what you felt you had a stronger point in. This type of discussion is fruitless because there will be no agreement on any issues. You fell that "ayman's" thinking and understanding and only those who agree with him are correct; and no one else has anything to teach ayman because they have not elevated their thinking enough. Well good for your brother. May Allah protect those who don't know from being misguided. That's not my job. When and if ever you decide to come to the table in discussion and not your superiority complex of infallibility, then maybe we can pick this up again.

Here is how I see our differences. You believe that As Salaat is a "learning connection" in which one learns from and connects with Allah to better their life. I agree with the principal in general, maybe your approach doesn't allow you to acknowledge that. But I also believe that Allah has given us ample instruction in Al Quran on how to perform the physical ritual of As-Salaat in order to preserve the wisdom behind it, that many dont understand. It is not my desire to impose a physical As-Salaat, I simply hear and do my best to obey. Everyone performing a physical As Salaat doesn't benefit me or hurt me. My information gathering and presentation on the subject is simply my contribution to those who don't have the time or all the resources to gather this information from in depth study on their own. I don't bother myself with who follows it or who doesn't. I just present it as I am inspired to do so.

If it frustrates you for people to continue to work to understand the method of how Allah has described the physical performance of As-Salaat in Al Quran, then don't worry about it; no one is forcing you to do so. You can continue to make the call to As-Salaat mentally as you do and then read or study, whatever you do that suits you. But insulting others and making disingenious arguments to try and discredit credible evidence from Al Quran only, does not appear to be the behavior of a "mu'min" to me. If you truly feel you have the best evidence from Al Quran to support your view, then use your "As-Salaat" to practise 16125.