Anyone Prays in Non-English?
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As-Salaamu Alaika Tay,
This is not a fallacy, the fact that one has to "learn" a language. That is a part of human existence. Even native arabic speakers have to learn arabic from their parents, family and/or school. When one studies a language, they learn the vast range of meanings that a simple word can have. This is the same in english. Nevertheless, Allah has revealed Al Quran in Arabic. It can not be improved upon by translating it to another language. Allah is translating wisdom to us. Al Quran is continously teaching and educating us. If we just leave the arabic and study translation, then we would have not foundation for wisdom. As-Salaat is a ritual designed to preserve knowledge, the knowledge of Al Quran. Make Ad-Dua in any language that one chooses. Allah hears the call of every caller.
As-Salaat is not just plain old "prayer", that we equate the term with in english. That is why I have translated it as "The Prayer", because it is a structured system given to us for our benefit in Al Quran by Allah; and He has detailed its instructions and restrictions therein.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace IQO, all,
The fallacy in your argument is that to learn a language you must have faith in the translation of the instructor who is teaching the language in order to understand what the Arabic word means. Thus you arrive at the same exact point as you would have if you simply read a translation. Any single instructor/translator is fallible and the student is just as prone to grasp the wrong understanding as he/she would be by reading a translation.
In my opinion, if one is to be studious and genuine in their inquiries, it is best to always cross-reference multiple translations and also study the roots of the words. Combined with cross-referencing from within the qur'an all the various uses of the words, this should be more than enough to paint the proper picture.
Nevertheless, the aim of this thread was not about study but about praying to God. And in prayer, imo, one should be sincere and expressive, and this should be done in the language that each person is most familiar with.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace IQO,
When one studies a language, they learn the vast range of meanings that a simple word can have.
Yes, but they learn the vast range by referencing the language that they speak. That's my point. Whether you learn Arabic or read a translation, in your mind, the same process occurs. That's the fallacy.
Peace,
Tay -
As-Salaamu Alaika Samia,
First off, I never prohibited praying, whether Ad-Dua or As-Salaat, in any other language. I made it clear that it is not "haraam". It is Allah, not just my understanding, who has said that none should change His words and to recite Al Quran during As-Salaat. When one translates, unintentionally or intentionally, this is done. Yes, we have to do translations to help get the message out to the world, but when "reciting" Al Quran, to make that recitation english or any other language would be meaningless and lose its beauty. I am surprised that as a native speaker you are challenging this, to be honest with you. But lets please keep the discussion focused and not start accusing others of saying or doing something that they didn't do. Again, I never made reciting Al-Quran in another language "haraam".
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
The prophet himself was prohibited by God from making restrictions on himself that God has not sanctioned. It is not up to you to tell people that they have to "aqeemus Salaat" in Arabic. It does not make it more acceptable because you say (It's just my understanding). There are limitations to your (just my understanding) when the absence of a text is not to be taken as negligence by God.
Prohibiting a legal thing is as bad as permitting a prohibited thing.
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Salaam IQ
What's the Arabic word for this "recite" which means "reicte in the original language in which the book was revealed"?
Salaams Samia,
I think you are very familiar with the words used in Al Quran for recite. So I won't play games like that with the message. My question to you is do you believe that translations are also Al Quran? If so, can you tell me which translations are Al Quran and which ones aren't? And if they are not Al Quran, then how do you recite Al Quran from a translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace IQO,
Yes, but they learn the vast range by referencing the language that they speak. That's my point. Whether you learn Arabic or read a translation, in your mind, the same process occurs. That's the fallacy.
Peace,
TayAs Salaamu Alaika Tay,
That is not a fallacy, that is how humans learn; whether in one language or another. You are missing the point that if Allah tells you to recite Al Quran, if you recite a translation, you are not reciting what Allah revealed. What is translated is deficient because even the Arabic Quran's understanding is still constantly being revealed to mankind. Reciting a translation is limiting to the full message contained in Al Quran in Arabic. Hope this helps, insha Allah.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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peace
i know translations may not be 100% accurate as we've seen in other topics here.
but it still counts. honesty and sincerity are the most important things. so we may not verbaly say the exact words that were revealed but our hearts say enough.also, if it's not too much trouble, could you explain the true meaning of 4064?
just the "Most Exalted is God" part.since you say it's limited or not living up to it's true meaning. -
Salaam IQ
What's the Arabic word for this "recite" which means "reicte in the original language in which the book was revealed"?
Salaam Samia
I think its Ta-Lam-Wao. Is it correct?
And what doest this verse mean?
2121
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Salaams Samia,
I think you are very familiar with the words used in Al Quran for recite. So I won't play games like that with the message. My question to you is do you believe that translations are also Al Quran? If so, can you tell me which translations are Al Quran and which ones aren't? And if they are not Al Quran, then how do you recite Al Quran from a translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I honestly do not know what word you mean by "reciting". Is it "yaqra'" or "yatlu" or "yurattel"? All these verbs are used. And what is the exact meaning of "to recite"? Is it like learning it by heart? (that'a what the teacher used to ask us to do...recite the verb conjugation, or a poem...).
When you read anything in any language, your brain processes what you understand, irrespective of the language it is conveyed in. Changing God's words does not mean translating them into another language, but changing their meaning. What's the point of reading a verse in Arabic with a word that means "to copy" while I am made to understand it as (to abrogate)? A translator might have grasped the correct meaning and translated it correctly. In this case, I, who am reading it in Arabic, am changing the word of God, whereas he who is reading it in English, e.g., is not.
As for your other question, I do not know what you understand by the word "quraan". It is an Arabic word that means "a reading". The only book of "qur'aan" I have is in the form of parallel text English/Arabic. When I discuss with my children or explain to them, I do it in English because they are not very good in Arabic (they read and speak the language, though) and honestly I do not feel that this is not quraan. As for me, I am more comfortable with the Arabic "quraan", not because it is more "quraanic", but simply because I am much better in Arabic than in English.
I hope I have answered your questions.
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I honestly do not know what word you mean by "reciting". Is it "yaqra'" or "yatlu" or "yurattel"? All these verbs are used. And what is the exact meaning of "to recite"? Is it like learning it by heart? (that'a what the teacher used to ask us to do...recite the verb conjugation, or a poem...).
When you read anything in any language, your brain processes what you understand, irrespective of the language it is conveyed in. Changing God's words does not mean translating them into another language, but changing their meaning. What's the point of reading a verse in Arabic with a word that means "to copy" while I am made to understand it as (to abrogate)? A translator might have grasped the correct meaning and translated it correctly. In this case, I, who am reading it in Arabic, am changing the word of God, whereas he who is reading it in English, e.g., is not.
As for your other question, I do not know what you understand by the word "quraan". It is an Arabic word that means "a reading". The only book of "qur'aan" I have is in the form of parallel text English/Arabic. When I discuss with my children or explain to them, I do it in English because they are not very good in Arabic (they read and speak the language, though) and honestly I do not feel that this is not quraan. As for me, I am more comfortable with the Arabic "quraan", not because it is more "quraanic", but simply because I am much better in Arabic than in English.
I hope I have answered your questions.
Salaams Samia,
So would you be fine with not having an arabic Quran and just an english one to "recite", "study", "learn" from? Or do you feel there is a must need for the arabic Quran, "book" as well? If so, why?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace IQO,
That is not a fallacy, that is how humans learn; whether in one language or another.
Precisely! But it is a fallacy because the translation of the instructor(when studying Arabic) or the translation of the translator(when reading a translated text) are equally translated.
That's what translation means. So learning a language or reading a translation hold the same exact weight.
eg.
Professor Y teaches me that "ameese" means "shirt".
Professor Y, in his translation, does not mention "ameese", but only mentions "shirt".Either way, my mind equates the word to the same exact concept.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaams Samia,
So would you be fine with not having an arabic Quran and just an english one to "recite", "study", "learn" from? Or do you feel there is a must need for the arabic Quran, "book" as well? If so, why?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
It is not a question of being fine, but of convenience. I can't reply to this question in an experimental way. A more fit person for this would be a natural bilingual. Moreover, I am a translator, so for me whenever I read or listen to something, I unconsciously translate it in my mind to the other language. But to cut it short to your understanding, I take the quraan as a message, not as a book written in a sacred language. As for its beauty, what do you expect from something coming from God? If He had revealed it in English, it would have been equally beautiful, and its translation into Arabic would have been less beautiful, but I would have the same opinion I would have read it in Arabic.
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Peace IQO,
Precisely! But it is a fallacy because the translation of the instructor(when studying Arabic) or the translation of the translator(when reading a translated text) are equally translated.
That's what translation means. So learning a language or reading a translation hold the same exact weight.
eg.
Professor Y teaches me that "ameese" means "shirt".
Professor Y, in his translation, does not mention "ameese", but only mentions "shirt".Either way, my mind equates the word to the same exact concept.
Peace,
TaySalaams Tay and Samia,
This is exactly why Allah has preserved Al Quran in Arabic. Therefore the foundation will always be there no matter how people try change the meanings of the words of Al Quran; especially by using different languages. If we removed the Arabic Quran and its importance from this equation, this movement of Quran only wouldn't even exist. All we would have left would be the interpretations of others left, whether they be in Arabic, English or any other language. By Allah preserving His EXACT words of revelation to us, we are able to investigate and ascertain the truth from all the falsehoods that are presented. Take away the Arabic Quran, and this current process becomes null and void.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Samia,
Salaams Samia,
So would you be fine with not having an arabic Quran and just an english one to "recite", "study", "learn" from? Or do you feel there is a must need for the arabic Quran, "book" as well? If so, why?
As-Salaamu Alaikum,
It is not a question of being fine, but of convenience. I can't reply to this question in an experimental way. A more fit person for this would be a natural bilingual. Moreover, I am a translator, so for me whenever I read or listen to something, I unconsciously translate it in my mind to the other language. But to cut it short to your understanding, I take the quraan as a message, not as a book written in a sacred language. As for its beauty, what do you expect from something coming from God? If He had revealed it in English, it would have been equally beautiful, and its translation into Arabic would have been less beautiful, but I would have the same opinion I would have read it in Arabic.
Do you believe that it is insignificant that the Quran is preserved in Arabic today? Of course if Allah would have preserved it in any other language, that version would have been what we are discussing. Arabic in itself is not sacred language. It is the Arabic Quran that is sacred to those who have faith in it as the word of Allah.
Do you think that non arabic speakers could ever arrive at the best meaning of Al Quran without the arabic Quran? Who should they trust to give them the best translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaam Samia
I think its Ta-Lam-Wao. Is it correct?
And what doest this verse mean?
2121
Yatlu to read and understand ; explain (yatlu 3ala someone). This is clear from this verse, because the result is they believe in it, so they must have understood it. We are not told that those who disbelieve in it do not "yatlu". So, the verse means "those to whom We revealed/given the book understand it very well, they believe in it, and whoever disbelieves in it, those are the losers".
In the quraan we have yatlu the news of Noah, the signs/verses of God.
yaqraa' has three meanings
To to deliver/convey , to gather and to recite
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Convey as in the first revealed verse iqra' in the name of thy Lord
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Gather (in an organized way) 7517,18 (it is upon Us to collect it and gather it, when We gather it (in an organized way) follow its organization).
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To recite 87 6 We will make you recite it so as not to forget
7204 "When the quraan is recited listen and be silent that you may receive mercy" Here it is clear you do not need to understand, as this is a general command.
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As-Salaamu Alaika Tay,
This is not a fallacy, the fact that one has to "learn" a language. That is a part of human existence. Even native arabic speakers have to learn arabic from their parents, family and/or school. When one studies a language, they learn the vast range of meanings that a simple word can have. This is the same in english. Nevertheless, Allah has revealed Al Quran in Arabic. It can not be improved upon by translating it to another language. Allah is translating wisdom to us. Al Quran is continously teaching and educating us. If we just leave the arabic and study translation, then we would have not foundation for wisdom. As-Salaat is a ritual designed to preserve knowledge, the knowledge of Al Quran. Make Ad-Dua in any language that one chooses. Allah hears the call of every caller.
As-Salaat is not just plain old "prayer", that we equate the term with in english. That is why I have translated it as "The Prayer", because it is a structured system given to us for our benefit in Al Quran by Allah; and He has detailed its instructions and restrictions therein.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Asalaamu Alaykom
I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is that people think Allah depends on us for our prayers when in fact the prayer benefits only ourselves and no one else. I think when some do not see immediate gratification to their deeds they assume those deeds to be almost worthless or pointless. The point of prayer to me is that its something we do unselfishly every day and when we unselfishly do that deed we in fact are bringing ourselves closer to Allah. That is why we humble ourselves before Allah in prostration. Its not just humility, its obedience.
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Samia,
Do you believe that it is insignificant that the Quran is preserved in Arabic today? Of course if Allah would have preserved it in any other language, that version would have been what we are discussing. Arabic in itself is not sacred language. It is the Arabic Quran that is sacred to those who have faith in it as the word of Allah.
Do you think that non arabic speakers could ever arrive at the best meaning of Al Quran without the arabic Quran? Who should they trust to give them the best translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I can't say if it is significant or not, but if it was revealed in Arabic to non Arabic speakers, it would of course be significant.
Honestly, and not for proving my point, they should trust nobody with the arabic explanation of the quraan. I do not trust it anyway. I can't speak for non-native speakers, but on this forum I see many very good ones, much better than native speakers.
Do not think because I speak arabic I understand the quraan automatically. I always have "lisanul 3arab" dictionary by my side. I do not trust anybody with my understanding of the quraan. This does not mean I do not take into consideration others' points of view.
The best way to arrive to the best possible understanding is to read the quraan through the eyes of God, if I may say. If a verse tells me something that is in contradiction with, say, God's justice, I will search for other meanings, even if they are remote, as long as they exist and fit better with the attributes of God. I think this could be achieved by anyone, not necessarily arabs. This does not mean native speakers of Arabic are not in advantage, but do they necessarily make use of it? The much luggage we have from traditional teachings since young age can really paralyses our ability to better understand the quraan.
Wa 3alaikas-salaam
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Salaams Tay and Samia,
This is exactly why Allah has preserved Al Quran in Arabic. Therefore the foundation will always be there no matter how people try change the meanings of the words of Al Quran; especially by using different languages. If we removed the Arabic Quran and its importance from this equation, this movement of Quran only wouldn't even exist. All we would have left would be the interpretations of others left, whether they be in Arabic, English or any other language. By Allah preserving His EXACT words of revelation to us, we are able to investigate and ascertain the truth from all the falsehoods that are presented. Take away the Arabic Quran, and this current process becomes null and void.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Who is talking about removing the Arabic quraan? As long as people are still believing in the message it contains, they will always need the Arabic quraan to revert to. In fact, Arabic quraan will be more reserved by non native speakers than by native speakers, because the former study it and try to understand, the latter "think" they know it, and so they do not study it and are busy reading other books. I think we are in agreement here.
I would say it is important that it is preserved, not because it is in Arabic, but because it is in its original language.
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Yatlu to read and understand ; explain (yatlu 3ala someone). This is clear from this verse, because the result is they believe in it, so they must have understood it. We are not told that those who disbelieve in it do not "yatlu". So, the verse means "those to whom We revealed/given the book understand it very well, they believe in it, and whoever disbelieves in it, those are the losers".
I think we cannot limit this verse to particular people and specific time. It is for all of us.
yu/minoona bihi are those who yatloonahu haqqa tilawatihi and those who are not yatloonahu haqqa tilawatihi are yakfur bihi and for not doing so they are faola-ika humu alkhasiroona
The following Allatheena ataynahumu alkitaba is like 72 when it says to prophet only Kitabun onzila ilayka and in verse 73 it says to all of us IttabiAAoo ma onzila ilaykum
As you have said <<"those to whom We revealed/given the book understand it very well">> definetly the book was revealed in plain Arabic and even the kuffar were able to read and understand it but what was the difference in kuffar's understanding and believer's understanding? The only difference is kuffars are not the follower of the book but the believers are, and this would be true till the end of time. That is why I think we should not limit the verse to any people and time.
One more thing, the root Ta-Lam-Wao has also the meaning of following. For example in the verse
912 Waalqamari itha talaha
And the moon when it follows the sun,Everyone can read and understand the book but those who read/understand and follow it as it should be followed are the real believers and those who know it read it/ listen it/ understand it but do not follow are the disbelievers and would be khasiroon.
salam
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Samia,
This, we are in agreement with.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Who is talking about removing the Arabic quraan? As long as people are still believing in the message it contains, they will always need the Arabic quraan to revert to. In fact, Arabic quraan will be more reserved by non native speakers than by native speakers, because the former study it and try to understand, the latter "think" they know it, and so they do not study it and are busy reading other books. I think we are in agreement here.
I would say it is important that it is preserved, not because it is in Arabic, but because it is in its original language.
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Peace IQO, Samia, all,
I am in agreement here as well.
Who is talking about removing the Arabic quraan? As long as people are still believing in the message it contains, they will always need the Arabic quraan to revert to. In fact, Arabic quraan will be more reserved by non native speakers than by native speakers, because the former study it and try to understand, the latter "think" they know it, and so they do not study it and are busy reading other books. I think we are in agreement here.
I would say it is important that it is preserved, not because it is in Arabic, but because it is in its original language.
Peace,
Tay