Kaaba again - destroy idols
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I think you are delusional thinking you are the Abraham of 21st century fighting idolatry. Prophet would have not thought twice about destroying Ka'bah if he feard it would become an idol to muslims. Do you think you know better than prophet, the companions and the salaf? That's arrogrance, ignorance and delusion.
Z The illogic of it all. Before one endevors into a critical discussion, it would be wise for one to understand the rules of an arguement (critical discussion) so that one may know when one is committing a logical fallacy, rather than...wasting one's (and other's) time.
So, rather than "my" "begging the question" I beg you to take a look at the following
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument
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Peace all,
If a Hindu spins seven times around a stone idol or fire it is idol worship; if a Christian worships the cross or statues it is idol worship; but if someone mindlessly spins around a cuboidal stone dressed in black cloth and kisses a stone positioned like the head of a newborn baby coming out of a dilated female vulva shaped enclosure precisely aligned with the winter sunrise, then it is not idol worship ???
All of the documentation in the form of the so called hadeeth etc. which indicates that the so called Kaaba in Mecca is the "kaaba" or "albayt alharaam" mentioned in al-qur'aan is UNVERIFIABLE HEARSAY fabricated after the death of the Prophet and then falsely attributed to him by his enemies.
There is ZERO evidence of existence of Mecca during the revelation of the qur'aan.
There is ZERO evidence of existence of the so called Kaaba in Mecca during revelation of the qur'aan.
Evidence of the qur'aan indicates that Muhammad was living near the ruins of the town of Lot and mentions olives and Mount Sinai in his vicinity. Olives are NOT found in the region of Mecca.
Orthographic evidence from the qur'aan indicates that it was originally descended in the North Arabian Lakhmid province region.
Evidence of the qur'aan shows that the so called Kaaba in Mecca does not meet ANY criteria laid down in the qur'aan for "albayt alharaam", and thus CANNOT be the one mentioned by The God in the qur'aan.
Please see the following post in another thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14268.msg128048#msg128048
Nabatean archeological evidence clearly shows that the deities of the pagan Arabs in pre-qur'aanic times, for example the fertility goddess Allat, were symbolised by imperfect cubes and they were often veiled in black cloth EXACTLY like the black cuboid idol in Mecca. There is also evidence about pagan rituals in pre-qur'aanic times such as spinning seven times around their cuboid idols and kissing black stones associated with their idols EXACTLY like the so called hajj rituals carried out in Mecca, which has ZERO basis from the qur'aan.
There is ZERO evidence of Abraham and his sons, Moses and Jesus ever visiting the so called Kaaba in Mecca, whereas they are supposed to know the qibla like they know their own children according to the qur'aan.
It is a very plausible scenario that the pagan hypocrites, who were the overwhelming majority, reverted back to their pagan practices soon after the death of Muhammad and started calling them islamic, just like the followers of Moses and Jesus did after their death.
The evidences from al-qur'aan should be enough for the believers and the forethoughtful, but I guess the blind can never see, unless The God wills otherwise.
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Salaamu Alaykom
I heard many stories about the time of the prophet but what comes to mind is from the movie "the message" which revealed allot of what is now going through my head. Wow how it strikes me now that Mekkah was famous for the idols worshipped in the Kaaba and people on a yearly basis came to the Kaaba to worship those idols. The Quran was revealed at that place and time as many will tell you to stop this idol worship but it continues? The revenue that Saudi Arabia gets from the tourists and hajji's because of the Kaaba stemmed from making a central place of worship and that was the way they had a steady income coming in. almost everybody I have spoke do in one way or the other thinks the Saudi government is corrupt or greedy. I don't know if they knowingly deceive many people but it seems funny that if I were in Saudi Arabia I would be beheaded for writing such things as I am writing now.
Oh and another thing I heard was that Yazid destroyed the Kaaba before he killed Imam Hussein (thats what I heard as a shia). but it never occurred to me that the shia still face that very place in worship.
Some of these eye openers are quite hard to accept but I fear that I will be rejecting my common sense if I disagree. and Allah did give me common sense or will someone try to convince me that my common sense is really whispers from the accursed Satan?
oh and BTW. i seen a comment referring to this discussion as a Christian way or something.. Its rather funny that you would say that when nobody here preaches that Jesus is god or the son of god. as a matter of fact I haven't seen the Quran only Muslims EVER say anything about Jesus that exalted him above the rank of messenger or prophet. but then again Quran only Muslims don't worship Prophets.
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Salaam
We have had many long discussions on this subject on this board.
I like to give my opinion on this.
The traditional explanations of Mecca, Kaaba, Hajj, Qibla, Sacred House and Masjid al Haram are not according to ?what was revealed?. If I follow this views and practices I will be following ?what we found our fathers following?. I can not imagine even after seeing the verses many times some promote history. History or even what we are made to see (like the crucifixion of Jesus) is not equal to what is with us which is given by Allah.
I do not agree with the theory of Ayman (also Tanveers) since it has contradictions and the theory does not stand detailed examination. If I follow these I will be following ?what our own desires and inclinations command us? and again not what was revealed.
Whatever I follow it should be according to the Quraan. If any theory contradicts the Quraan no amount of so called evidence you pile up constitute to what is to be followed.
Do we have differences in this rule?
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Whatever I follow it should be according to the Quraan. If any theory contradicts the Quraan no amount of so called evidence you pile up constitute to what is to be followed.
Peace Warner,
Indeed, whatever you or I follow should be according to the quran. Thus, let us both take some quranic advice and follow the clear explicit verses which are the essence of the scripture and follow them only until the verses of implict similarity finally become clear to us.
Agreed?
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Salaam hajirfm and AB
I agree too. This forum is not for the faint-hearted, nor for "n'importe qui"
Hello Samia
No no, I didn't mean for this forum is not for the faint hearted, neither me or Hajir are faint hearted really, we are only shocked to see the non sense coming out of those so called Muslims, on FFI however we expewct that non Muslim will talk non sense all the time, it is to my shock me and Hajir that there are plenty of so called Muslim spew non sense more that those who are non Muslims, I call this the enemy within, and sure the enmy within is far dangerous than the obvious enemy
Salam
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i would have thought serving the creator would be unifying, but apparently it's not unifying enough so people need a brick, or set of bricks, or brick construct to focus their attention on.
Nothing is unifying where the human race is concerned. Corals are better than us.
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Salam Ahmed,
I agree.
Salam Hajir
I actually believe that you are a woman, sorry if you are not, I just found you very kind as most women are (this is from FFI not in here), anyway, yes it is hard in here due to the amount of allegations they spew, however believe me mate it is so easy to slam dunk them if you know the Quran and its language well, most in here dont even talk Arabic and just follow english translation that they feel comfy with, so take the passenger seat and watch for a while, but please step in to drive if you feel you can give me a hand or give other sincere Muslims like Ra-jah, Quraishi, and StillLearnung, (i'm sure there are more but can't recall their names), just keep in mind that they dont use haidth in here, so no hadith evidences should be used, however I agree with you heart and soul that there numerous great teachings and explanations in the hadith, what I have learnt from my internet debate that is going for at least 4 years thatsimply never use the hadith as a source of evidences in debates with Muslims or non Muslims, we can use the hadith if two Muslims just having a discussion and both of them agree about the morals and principals in the hadith as well agree that many of the hadith is corrupt
Tale care
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Peace all,
I posted this a while back and it seems like a good time to post it again.
Any person who claims to be a submitter while he/she is a disbeliever, idolater or rejecter becomes a hypocrite. Many people who are not believers/submitters call themselves believers/submitters and deceive others. These are the hypocrites. The God says the following about them
29 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
4142 The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving themThe God says He will protect the muslims and mumins from the hypocrites, and tells us how to deal with them
864 And if they wish to deceive you, then God is sufficient for you. He is the One who supported you with His victory and with the believers.
3349 And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in God; God suffices as an advocate.The hypocrites will not be able to survive for long
3361 If the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while.
The God tells us how we can recognize the hypocrites. Following are the criteria by which we can identify them
3168 And to let those who are hypocrites know, that they were told "Come fight in the cause of God or defend," they said "If we knew how to fight we would have followed you." They are closer to disbelief then they are to belief. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts, and God is aware of what they conceal.
461 And if they are told "Come to what God has sent down and to the messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you strongly.
4142 The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they attend to the contact-method, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little.
968 The hypocrite men and women, they are to each other. They order evil and deter from good, and they close their hands. They forgot God, so He forgot them; the hypocrites are the wicked.
632 When the hypocrites come to you they Say "We bear witness that you are the messenger of God." And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
638 They are the ones who Say "Do not spend on those who are with the messenger of God, unless they abandon him!" And to God belongs the treasures of the heavens and the Earth, but the hypocrites do not comprehend.
Based on the above criteria, the hypocrites can be identified easily and even if they call themselves muslims/mumins they will not be able to fool anyone.
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Peace
See, this last post is precisely making my point. This attachment to a cubic stone structure is leading some to call others names, and the worse name of all in Islam, hypocrite!
Really if this love for a cubic stone is making you so extreme in your discourse, you might be careful with being brandished an idolater.
Read the Quran better, especially the section where Allah tells some of Mohammed (pbuh) contemporaries that if they consider the watering of the Masjid AlHaram more important than Belief in Allah and His Prophet, then they are surely very misled.
Brothers, let us have some perspective here...
Salam
Noble -
TAnveer
29 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
4142 The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving themThe God says He will protect the muslims and mumins from the hypocrites, and tells us how to deal with them
So you mean to say from last 1400 years the only MUSLIM AND MUMINS are AYMAN AND DESCIPLES. Strange very strange.
Not from an intelligent fellow like you, just because if some one does not agree with your' s or Aymans argument on logical and reasoanble grounds you call him or her hippocrite, I am not believing this! -
Its always dangerous and cultish when someone uses verses to justify the hypocrisy/unbelief of others......
Are all sunnis/shiahs doomeed or hypocrites tanveer?
ps; what is the difference between 'brick/idol worship' and 'book (quran/clergy/academics.) worship'? -
Peace All
Yes this is a very controversial issue... I think it also has to do with our viewing things and concepts has evolved (maybe not for the better) compared to the Prophet's folks.
For starters there is the influence of Greek Philosophy and Logic (espoused by the West) thanks to the Muslims by the way who preserved it for them...
That being said Scientific Method is a good tool to prove or disprove statements.
Archeology and Anthropology are good ones, and as I said before, if it were allowed, I am extremely curious what the digging in Makkah will show up... They will never allow it though...
What is sure is that Allah commanded the Muslims to pray towards a Qiblah (an analysis says Jerusalem, then Makkah, then Jerusalem), as evidence there are old mosques of the seventh and eighth centuries that are directed towards Jerusalem.
Since there is no clear cut names in The Quran at where the Qiblah is, and that Allah clearly states that to please the Prophet He chose for him a Qiblah that he will be happy with, it might be a matter of choice for the Muslim Community to choose their Qiblah.
Since they chose Makkah, then Makkah it is.
Still there are some rules, and among those clearing it and purifying of idols, which might include removing the black stones and destroying the Cube, the Qiblah is a location, not a building. -
Peace all,
Wow, and here I was thinking people are not paying any attention to the signs from The God ! So alhamdulillah there is still hope !
After posting The God's words over and over again and noticing some people not considering them enough proof, I decided to post the signs on hypocrisy. They were not directed at anyone specifically but meant to serve as a reminder in general and a jolt to reality, and directed at only those people who say they are "muslims" yet refuse to accept The God's signs as proofs.
Some people keep asking for proofs and when the clear proof is given to them directly from The God's words, it is not enough. I wonder why such people keep calling themselves "muslims" brickwall
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Salam Hajir
I actually believe that you are a woman, sorry if you are not, I just found you very kind as most women are (this is from FFI not in here), anyway, yes it is hard in here due to the amount of allegations they spew, however believe me mate it is so easy to slam dunk them if you know the Quran and its language well, most in here dont even talk Arabic and just follow english translation that they feel comfy with, so take the passenger seat and watch for a while, but please step in to drive if you feel you can give me a hand or give other sincere Muslims like Ra-jah, Quraishi, and StillLearnung, (i'm sure there are more but can't recall their names), just keep in mind that they dont use haidth in here, so no hadith evidences should be used, however I agree with you heart and soul that there numerous great teachings and explanations in the hadith, what I have learnt from my internet debate that is going for at least 4 years thatsimply never use the hadith as a source of evidences in debates with Muslims or non Muslims, we can use the hadith if two Muslims just having a discussion and both of them agree about the morals and principals in the hadith as well agree that many of the hadith is corrupt
Tale care
Salam Ahmed, I am your brother in Islam. However I take it as a compliment that you found me a kind person; you should talk to my wife and convince her of this fact angel
There are five pillars to Islam and it's sad that this enemy within has started to tackle Jihad and now Hajj. Then they go out of their way to make sense of Hajj and come up with stupidest explanations that can only satisfy themselves. Here is a verse that fits them well
- When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
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Salaam,
- When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
Beautiful verse, MashaAllah. These people are also
218 Deaf, dumb and blind of Reason! They will not return to begin their journey in the right direction.
Allah has also said about such people
822 The worst of creations in the Sight of Allah are those deaf, those dumb who do not use their intellect
May God give some wisdom to all of us.