A few thoughts
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Some say, God gave us free will so that we can choose to love him or not out of our own "free choice" to do so. That he can cultivate a relationship with us and we with him.
However, where this breaks down is the teaching of heaven or hell. There is a saying that goes "which is more moral. Serving another person because it is the right thing to do, or because God will reward you for it."
A good person should do right by others and love God not because he will get heaven or punished with hell, but because he feels it is the right thing, yet he will be dust one day all the same.
Its like capital punishment. Some people go off and kill people without reasoning. We can take them to prison and then execute them. Other people will never kill another person and thus have no need to worry over this penalty.
Its when we die apparently, that God can really get to work. It would be like, living a perfectly good life in morality and goodness to all creation yet death would be its own form of death row and you have been sentenced post-mortem to not just a few moments in the 'hot seat' but a continual/eternal punishment again and again. Even the most foul of persons could say that an eternal punishment for a life that just did not include God was grossly disportionate with the crime. Seems like a sadistic notion of a demented person's imagination. Or that, if I may.. God is basically saying "Love me.. or its the fire for you." No parent (much less our creator ) would dare talk to his child this way (I should know as a parent myself.)
When I was growing up, I was always told by my family "do not do X or Y, because it offends God and will send you to hell." This sort of morality tale, only scars a generation, where they see God as more like a hyper abusive parent than one who loves them unconditionally.
Not to be rude or disrespectful, but let me further the point. I have done counseling for teens of broken homes or abusive parents. When you have more than one child, usually you will see one of two things happen. One child will do everything the parent says to not get whipped and even agree that the other child is the worse one if it keeps them safe. This is not love, this is survival.
The other child, in turn, gets beat by said parent and takes the most of the yelling. This child usually becomes the very quiet introspective child who does not like confrontation and just goes into his own mental bubble to escape his reality.
I see this same behavior transferred in religion. It can be used, in worst cases, for social control.. "Do not do X or God shall smite you." In best cases, it can inspire men and women to heights of spiritual expression. Yet it is still the same "Do X and you will go to Heaven. Do Y and you will go to everlasting torment." From the dozens of people I have spoken with in my former capacity as a minister, it was never "how can I connect best with God.." it was "Rashid.. Can God forgive this so I do not have to suffer hell?"
It was like God was the paternal figure and they were a small child trembling for the time the father came home to discover their mess and wail on them. A loving God does not hold hell in front of you to keep you in line. That has been my thought since leaving the church. I had hoped Islam would be different, yet the Qur'an is littered with warnings about the fire. sigh
Ah well.. end mini-rant for the time being.
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Maybe this requires a rethinking of the exact details of the after life. Think about this Say during a mans childhood and adolescence he is constantly harassed and bullied by a group of other kids. In one incident the situation turns unfortunate and the young man is horribly mentally and physically scarred; possibly ending his life as well. (for the sake of this argument it dosent matter.)
The young man is swears not to forgive the others for this transgression. Upon the others entry into the after life, a decision must be reached as to thier final destination. If they are accepted into heaven, the young man would not be in infinite bliss due to his decision by his 'free will.' If they are cast out, (assuming they lead pretty normal, honorable, and benevolent lives after the incident) how is that just?
I guess the main problem with the concept of the abrahamic style of the after life is how it fits in with a persons own emotions and free will.
Say god makes or forces eveyone feel happy in heaven through his power, how can it be real, what meaning could be behing that existance?
Though I get carried away and have yet to introduce myself; I am Lost Philosopher, most call me Lost. I am a patron of this bar of intellectual knowledge. I just havent frequented it as of late.
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Thank you for your response and introduction.
However, I do not see how you have contributed to the meat of my thoughts. I mean no disrespect and it could be I simply was not clear enough in my intent.
It seems to me, as I say, the threat of hell or reward of heaven is a societal control measure as well as an ever present guillotine above everyone's neck whether saint or sinner.. believer or atheist. Regardless of their good or bad deeds.
It relates to how I see an abusive household keeping the children in line as I outlined in my post. I was not addressing the afterlife as much as I was speaking on the whole model of how we should live and for what reason. For as I understand, the vast majority of people model their beliefs over avoiding hell and seeking heaven even if they do not say so.
I think it is more moral to seek the good even if there is no reward because it is the better of the two options. We all go to the dirt all the same. I see the question of an eternal reward/punishment system as a remnant of our former evolutionary place as a people.
I look forward to your response.
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Peace rashidala, all
I can see why you are concerned about this issue. You can try to see it from this point of view
Paradise = Peace of mind
Hell = Extreme stressIt is all mental. Imagine someone who is constantly liying, cheating or stealing. He will be in constant stress (even if it is not visible externally on him) as a result of his deeds, and always anxious about been caught or that some other one would find out about his misdeeds.
On the other hand, someone truthfull would live with peace of mind, avoiding to do wrong to others.
What a very loving and caring parent can do for his son acting like in the first?
At death, I believe that we stay in the state of mind that we have when dying, and it would in some way continue, as long as the creation exist. Then, some return to the god, and others cease to exist.
This is only my view, only the god the creator knows for sure.
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I think it is more moral to seek the good even if there is no reward because it is the better of the two options. We all go to the dirt all the same. I see the question of an eternal reward/punishment system as a remnant of our former evolutionary place as a people.
Peace.
I agree! I don't understand the reward logic myself. I would want to do good to others because I would feel wrong to do bad. -
Then you are saying the mentioning of hellfire being fueled by men and stones and the flesh being burned off and then given new skins to taste the fire anew is just allegory? )
I agree with Someone in his understanding.
Remeber, hell is not just very hot. It's also extremely cold. What does that tell you? An extreme state of discomfort
7825Save boiling water and a paralysing cold
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Thank you all for your responses.
I could be wrong here, but if hell was not the ultimate eternal punishment and you just became worm food for good or ill.. how many people would choose to be good just because? Ah well.
I spent all my teenage years thinking I was on the razor's edge of the precipice of hell if I mis-stepped in my path as a christian. Was quite emotional/psychologically damaging.
Yet, here I still stand just now in Islam instead of Christianity about hell or not.. Thanks again for the responses.