Kaaba again - destroy idols
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I don't know about this argument, but the Kaabaa in Mecca is so paganistic that I doubt a neutral observer with full knowledge of Islam (excluding this, of course - within the bounds of neutrality) would EVER think that is a "holy sanctuary".
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Peace Hajirfm,
You mentioned 2226. How do you understand 'baytee' (My house)? God refers to something as 'My house'.
The god's house is any place where no partners are setup with him (see 2226). So my house is more the god's house than the house full of idols in Mecca.
Also how do you understand 171. God describes Masjid Al-aqsa as 'whose precincts We did bless'. Did God bless the rocks, dirt, water or air?
There was no structure called Masjid Al-aqsa in Jerusalem. The place where the present Masjid Al-aqsa is built used to be a garbage dump at the time of the prophet. Long after the death of the prophet, when the Jews and the Muhajirin conquered Jerusalem under king Umar I, they proceded to clean the place up and build a temple there. This is documented in archeological evidence from the era. So even sectarians know that what you call "Masjid Al-aqsa" is certainly not the real "masjid al-aqsa" talked about in the great reading. I am surprised that you don't know this fact. This is so indisputable that many sectarian jurists were forced to acknowledge that this is not a physical earthly location.
If you want to know what "al-masjid al-aqsa" means then you need to look in a Classical Arabic dictionary. You will see that the word "aqsa" means "utmost" or "farthest". The word "masjid" is of the form "mf3il" like "marji3" (source) for "ruju3" (return). We know that "sujud" in the great reading primarily means "obedience" so "masjid" is something to be obeyed or an institution of obedience. Putting those two words together we get "the utmost institution of obedience".
Also how do you understand 2012 where Moses is ordered to take off his shoes because he was in the 'sacred' valley Tuwa. What was sacred about Tuwa? The rocks, the dirt, the water or the air?
Just look up the word "tuwa" in the dictionary if you don't know what it means. You will see that it means "folded in"/"within" (see 21104 and 3967). So 2012 talks about Moses taking off his shoes because he is in the sacred valley within. Of course he doesn't need to walk to any place, it is within him where he will receive the god's message.
How do you understand 901 and 951-3.
Passages 901 and 951-3 actually completely destroy the sectarian mythology about Mecca.
Firstly, 901 doesn't tell us the name of the town where the prophet lived. It simply says "this town". The god could have easily said "Mecca" or "Jerusalem" or "Petra" or any other town that people imagine. It is amazing that for those who think, there is as much a message for us in what the god didn't say in 901 as what he said. Had the particular town been important then the god would have said its name but instead he used the generic "this town". So certainly the god is conveying to us that the town or the location where the prophet lived is not important and it doesn't matter for us.
Secondly, the god in 951-3 speaks of a town that is in the vicinity of "tin" (figs) and "zaytoon" (olives). Certainly, such crops cannot be found anywhere near Mecca but are prevelant in northern Arabia. So you really need to read passages carefully before you use them to defend the pagan center of Mecca because in reality all of the great reading undermines your arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
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Passages 901 and 951-3 actually completely destroy the sectarian mythology about Mecca.
Firstly, 901 doesn't tell us the name of the town where the prophet lived. It simply says "this town". The god could have easily said "Mecca" or "Jerusalem" or "Petra" or any other town that people imagine. It is amazing that for those who think, there is as much a message for us in what the god didn't say in 901 as what he said. Had the particular town been important then the god would have said its name but instead he used the generic "this town". So certainly the god is conveying to us that the town or the location where the prophet lived is not important and it doesn't matter for us.
Secondly, the god in 951-3 speaks of a town that is in the vicinity of "tin" (figs) and "zaytoon" (olives). Certainly, such crops cannot be found anywhere near Mecca but are prevelant in northern Arabia. So you really need to read passages carefully before you use them to defend the pagan center of Mecca because in reality all of the great reading undermines your arguments.
Peace Ayman,
Not sure how you read that Surah 95 is about figs, olives, and Mt. Sinai being in vicinity of the city where the Sacred House is located?
La oqsimu bihatha albaladi
901 I do call to witness this City;-Waanta hillun bihatha albaladi
902 And thou art a freeman of this City;-Wahatha albaladi alameeni
953 And this City of security,-Waith qala ibraheemu rabbi ijAAal hatha albalada aminan waojnubnee wabaniyya an naAAbuda alasnama
1435 Remember Abraham said "O my Lord! make this city one of peace and security and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols.Rabbana innee askantu min thurriyyatee biwadin ghayri thee zarAAin AAinda baytika almuharrami rabbana liyuqeemoo alssalata faijAAal afidatan mina alnnasi tahwee ilayhim waorzuqhum mina alththamarati laAAallahum yashkuroona
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
Also see verses 2126-127 mentioning the same city and house (physical structure) being built.
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Peace all,
The cube-shaped building called Kaba located in Mecca is certainly, without a doubt, one of the biggest and most revered IDOL worshipped by the "Muslims" and known throughout the world and everything that goes in and around it is nothing but idolworshipping acts. Warnings are found abundance throughout the Quran and such acts are condemned yet majority of the world follow similar idiosyncrasies.
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Salam.
The Nabster,
i'm not saying those are or not the footprints of this or that messenger of GOD.I'm just like any other person also interested what is Macca. What is inside that stone, why is it sooo important, why do they circle it 7 times, kiss it and what is the deal with throwing stones at another stoney structure?
Trust me, i don't intend to travel to KSA any time soon, not because i don't want to, i want to, but i wanna be informed what is Hajj, where is it, etc., etc.
One of our brothers here wrote an excellent article about Hajj, i think it was Arnold or Wakas or layth and i think the artcile itself is strong enough to be transformed into a screenplay and i believe i could do that job and maybe show what is really going on.
I was always against kissing a stone, i was always against the pictures of Ka'aba in the mosques and praying houses, i was always against idols and idolism but i can't just say it to these people without any evidence and i know that this forum is evidence enough, it just needs to be presented in the right way.
I also agree that Makkah should be excavated or at least taken picturesfrom the space or infra red images or something like that so that the world can see The Truth. Same goes for the foot prints. I don't know what is the deal with that. I would like first to see them and then i will make the judgment are the of Abraham, are they old, how old and so on.
I use to work in the construction business, i can make cemented stuff and once i do, i can make my own footprints and then we will see how long will it take for them to fall apart and that will be that.
Take water, cement, lime and sand. Combine it in the machine, put it into the matrix and step into it. Your footprint will last maybe 100 years but i don't know about 1.000 or 10.000 years.GOD knows best.
Peace.
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Peace Ayman,
Ok translate the following terms too
- Hajj
- Masjid Al-Haraam
- Qibla
Also what do you think about Jihad?
What do YOU think about Jihad?
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Peace brother Ayman,
I am thinking how should we tell the people about Kaaba idol, because it would create a great confusion and it could also make them very angry. Do you have any road map for that how should we approach them to tell the truth. Because the cube is the nucleus of their beliefs they won't listen a word. So we should definitely tell them the truth with wisdom. May God save the Ummah from idol worshiping. pr
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Uh, let's get over the hadith first!!!!
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But worshiping rocks and stones is disgusting.......http//img261.imageshack.us/img261/1374/stonehugji3.gif nope
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What about worshipping scriptures and concepts of god?
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What about worshipping scriptures and concepts of god?
Not sure who worships scriptures, or concepts of God. Quite a difference between stones and "concepts of God".
I presume that this is obviously based on your previous argument that the Quran is not empirically proven, or that God is not empirically proven.
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Some folks do not have concrete evidence that the kaaba should be revered yet pay dogmatic homage to it because of priests,traditions and 'god says so,and some pay homage to concepts of god and scriptures using exactly the same unverified principles....No difference,just the pot calling the kettle black....Go figure...
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Do you realise what you're asking?
That is hardly something that can be done immediately. I imagine the way you would like it is
Enquirer Prove the existance of the Lord to me
Person Oh, just a minute, let me just do 1400 years of scientific work and I'll get back to you.
Person The answer is "42".
Enquirer Oh, thanks, I see the light. -
No! Just show me ONE verifed concrete proof of god.....
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Alright, let's build on this.
What would you say counts as proof of God?
What about the fact that we exist? Anthropic principle? That there has been three major religions, all claim to follow the SAME GOD throughout?
That the Quran is free from flaws, and contains magnificent wisdom?
That it refers to things such as embryology and creation in layman's terms, but we see that the meanings behind the words are consistent with scientifically accepted fact?
Is that a good enough base?
How shall we approach this proof of God - through logic, mathematics, or the three sciences?