Kaaba again - destroy idols
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Some folks do not have concrete evidence that the kaaba should be revered yet pay dogmatic homage to it because of priests,traditions and 'god says so,and some pay homage to concepts of god and scriptures using exactly the same unverified principles....No difference,just the pot calling the kettle black....Go figure...
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Do you realise what you're asking?
That is hardly something that can be done immediately. I imagine the way you would like it is
Enquirer Prove the existance of the Lord to me
Person Oh, just a minute, let me just do 1400 years of scientific work and I'll get back to you.
Person The answer is "42".
Enquirer Oh, thanks, I see the light. -
No! Just show me ONE verifed concrete proof of god.....
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Alright, let's build on this.
What would you say counts as proof of God?
What about the fact that we exist? Anthropic principle? That there has been three major religions, all claim to follow the SAME GOD throughout?
That the Quran is free from flaws, and contains magnificent wisdom?
That it refers to things such as embryology and creation in layman's terms, but we see that the meanings behind the words are consistent with scientifically accepted fact?
Is that a good enough base?
How shall we approach this proof of God - through logic, mathematics, or the three sciences?
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Peace Hajirfm,
Ok translate the following terms too
- Hajj
- Masjid Al-Haraam
- Qibla
"al-hajj" = the feast / the market
"al-masjid al-haraam" = "the inviolable institution of obedience"
"qibla" = targetAlso what do you think about Jihad?
Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
Not sure how you read that Surah 95 is about figs, olives, and Mt. Sinai being in vicinity of the city where the Sacred House is located?
They are all talked about in the same sentence. This would indicate some relationship between them or are you implying that the god speaks haphazardly?
La oqsimu bihatha albaladi
901 I do call to witness this City;-
Waanta hillun bihatha albaladi
902 And thou art a freeman of this City;-
Wahatha albaladi alameeni
953 And this City of security,-
Waith qala ibraheemu rabbi ijAAal hatha albalada aminan waojnubnee wabaniyya an naAAbuda alasnama
1435 Remember Abraham said "O my Lord! make this city one of peace and security and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols.Mecca is not a city of security. Everyone on this thread would get arrested, tortured or worse if we were having this public discussion in Mecca.
Rabbana innee askantu min thurriyyatee biwadin ghayri thee zarAAin AAinda baytika almuharrami rabbana liyuqeemoo alssalata faijAAal afidatan mina alnnasi tahwee ilayhim waorzuqhum mina alththamarati laAAallahum yashkuroona
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.As you yourself quote, the passage says "without cultivation". It didn't say "barren". If you don't know the difference then please see 1247, 5664, 4829, 6141, 1611, 134, 1437, 1832, 3227, 3921, 26148, 4426. You can see that "zar3" involves an act of human cultivation. This doesn't mean that the valley was barren, i.e., without naturally occurring plants.
Also see verses 2126-127 mentioning the same city and house (physical structure) being built.
Clearly 2127 is not talking about primarily a physical structure. How can you raise the foundations FROM the house? Is it an upside-down house?
Please see 9109 to find out about what we should found our buildings on. On the other hand, your cube with all its pagan symbols and rituals is a source of doubt in your heart and you know it (9110).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Hamsa,
I am thinking how should we tell the people about Kaaba idol, because it would create a great confusion and it could also make them very angry. Do you have any road map for that how should we approach them to tell the truth. Because the cube is the nucleus of their beliefs they won't listen a word. So we should definitely tell them the truth with wisdom. May God save the Ummah from idol worshiping.
This is a tough question to which there is no standard answer. What I have found from my experience is that there are two kinds of people.
There is the kind that instinctively feels that there is something not quite right with kissing a stone and revering an inert object. Those people recognize the truth when they see it. We just have to approach them in the right way and not force the issue.
The other kind are people who no matter what happens, will find an excuse for idolizing something. Those are the people who as you say "the cube (and not the god) is the nucleus of their beliefs". You can't help them and nobody can.
In my experience, I have found that a good initiation of conversation in those matters is when people criticize other religions such as Christianity for having pagan influences or criticise people who are blindly following others. The natural question is how about us? We can make similar criticism about the black stone, the cube, etc.
What you will also find out very quickly is that you now know about the stone cube, the so-called Black Stone, etc. more than any of the people who idolize such things. So you have the high ground.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Bros
I was mulling about the footprints of Ibraheem?
Who put them there? What material did they have 10,000 years ago to capture them?, and why that location?
This is more in tune with what the Pharaohs in Egypt will do to ensure their legacy than the work of a Prophet of God, especially one of the stature of Abraham who was so much against anything close to idol worship.
Did he condone the imprint of his footprint being cast in the soil?
No way in the world would Abraham sanction such a thing... more the stuff of Hollywood stars hall of fame with their hands prints cast in Hollywood and Leicester Sq. in London ) ...
And some people calling the footprints of Abraham just a piece of memorabilia.... right that you pray towards?!!! ) -
Peace Noble, Alen, all,
The footprint idols near the so called Kaaba in Mecca have NOTHING to do with Ibraheem. Please see the following posts for pictures of those filthy and gloomy footprint idols, and the pagan mythology behind them
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112065#msg112065
According to al-qur'aan, The "maqam" of Ibraheem is supposed to be located IN the "kaaba" (397) and not "near" or "outside" it.
A more pressing question that presents itself "What do footprints in a rock have anything to do with the functions of "7ajj" and the calling of all people?"
Such footprints are not unique or special but are typically what we find for fertility idols. According to pagan mythology, good fortune and flowers spring up in the footprints of the idol. Thus, you find such prints next to the fertility idol's sanctuary. If you look closely at the pagan footprint idols inside the so called "Maqam Ibraheem", you will see the flower motif all the way around them. Such filthy stuff has nothing to do with Abraham or al-qur'aan.
Doesn't "maqam Ibraheem" signify following the example of Abraham and destroying all the pagan idols ? If some really believe that Mecca is the location of the house, shouldn't they be purifying the place from such filthy pagan idols instead of finding excuses for them ? Where in al-qur'aan are we asked to pray behind a place called Maqam Ibraheem containing footprint idols ? What is the difference between praying towards an idol and praying to it ?
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Peace Ayman,
They are all talked about in the same sentence. This would indicate some relationship between them or are you implying that the god speaks haphazardly?
951 By the Fig and the Olive,
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
953 And this City of security,-No, the relationship is analogous to that of olive-tree fueling God?s guiding light?
2435 Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not -- light upon light -- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.
Another possible explanation?
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_095.htmMecca is not a city of security. Everyone on this thread would get arrested, tortured or worse if we were having this public discussion in Mecca.
No doubt majority has been led astray; however, adherence to Qur?an would make it a place of peace and security for people as per verses 901-2, 953, 1435, etc.
You can see that "zar3" involves an act of human cultivation. This doesn't mean that the valley was barren, i.e., without naturally occurring plants.
Clearly 2127 is not talking about primarily a physical structure. How can you raise the foundations FROM the house? Is it an upside-down house?
Please see 9109 to find out about what we should found our buildings on.
2126 And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2127 And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
9109 talks about building a ?spiritual" not ?physical" foundation (different events) and as you have already stated living, cultivating, are in physical city/valley?
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer
Peace
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Peace Noble, Alen, all,
The footprint idols near the so called Kaaba in Mecca have NOTHING to do with Ibraheem. Please see the following posts for pictures of those filthy and gloomy footprint idols, and the pagan mythology behind them
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112065#msg112065
According to al-qur'aan, The "maqam" of Ibraheem is supposed to be located IN the "kaaba" (397) and not "near" or "outside" it.
A more pressing question that presents itself "What do footprints in a rock have anything to do with the functions of "7ajj" and the calling of all people?"
Such footprints are not unique or special but are typically what we find for fertility idols. According to pagan mythology, good fortune and flowers spring up in the footprints of the idol. Thus, you find such prints next to the fertility idol's sanctuary. If you look closely at the pagan footprint idols inside the so called "Maqam Ibraheem", you will see the flower motif all the way around them. Such filthy stuff has nothing to do with Abraham or al-qur'aan.
Doesn't "maqam Ibraheem" signify following the example of Abraham and destroying all the pagan idols ? If some really believe that Mecca is the location of the house, shouldn't they be purifying the place from such filthy pagan idols instead of finding excuses for them ? Where in al-qur'aan are we asked to pray behind a place called Maqam Ibraheem containing footprint idols ? What is the difference between praying towards an idol and praying to it ?Salam.
Trust me, brother Tanveer, i agree with you 100%.
Peace.
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Peace
I can appreciate why there is the saying "Patient as a Prophet", and also why Allah told Mohammed's followers (and rejectors) were they going to make his life as hard as Moses? (when the Children of Israel kept on harassing him with questions and stupid comments).
Oki Nun de Plume (nice nick btw)
Allah is the only one who allows himself to swear by his Creation (we are not allowed as it is idolatry)-
Despite that people still do, some will swear by their children, their possessions, some idols etc... All the objects they swear by are important to them, and convey a sense of importance to the recipient, so that the recipient believes them.
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
kappich
have a nice day -
Peace
I can appreciate why there is the saying "Patient as a Prophet", and also why Allah told Mohammed's followers (and rejectors) were they going to make his life as hard as Moses? (when the Children of Israel kept on harassing him with questions and stupid comments).
Oki Nun de Plume (nice nick btw)
Allah is the only one who allows himself to swear by his Creation (we are not allowed as it is idolatry)-
Despite that people still do, some will swear by their children, their possessions, some idols etc... All the objects they swear by are important to them, and convey a sense of importance to the recipient, so that the recipient believes them.
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
kappich
have a nice dayBeautiful understanding peace
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Peace theNabster,
Thanks on the "Nom de Plume" compliment...
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
2320 Also a tree springing out of MOUNT SINAI, which produces oil, and relish for those who use it for food.
Where is MOUNT SINAI ? vicinity of PALESTINE?
http//www.pacinst.com/route/route.jpg
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
Right, analogy is about ?same message? of light/guidance not about same vicinity.
kappich
have a nice daySi piccolo; actually spent a year as a refugee in Rome when little.
Ciao
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Jews were also living with prophet Mohammed and they knew about the Mount of Sinai that is why god used that otherwise mount everest would be more fitting, had god used mount everest we could have presented it as a miracle because it is the highest peak of the world. Alhamdulillah
http//www.sjm.com/assets/successstories/sstories_meyer_illustration_northfaceme.gif
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Peace brother Hamsa,
This is a tough question to which there is no standard answer. What I have found from my experience is that there are two kinds of people.
There is the kind that instinctively feels that there is something not quite right with kissing a stone and revering an inert object. Those people recognize the truth when they see it. We just have to approach them in the right way and not force the issue.
The other kind are people who no matter what happens, will find an excuse for idolizing something. Those are the people who as you say "the cube (and not the god) is the nucleus of their beliefs". You can't help them and nobody can.
In my experience, I have found that a good initiation of conversation in those matters is when people criticize other religions such as Christianity for having pagan influences or criticise people who are blindly following others. The natural question is how about us? We can make similar criticism about the black stone, the cube, etc.
What you will also find out very quickly is that you now know about the stone cube, the so-called Black Stone, etc. more than any of the people who idolize such things. So you have the high ground.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
Thanks for your reply and I find myself in agreement with you.
peace