Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Peace all,
According to Nabatean pagan mythology, Dushara/Dusares was the sun-god of the Nabateans and was their chief deity. He was claimed to be born to a virgin sun-goddess "Chaamu" or "Core" or Allat, and his birth was celebrated at winter solstice. The Nabatean fertility sun-goddess Allat and her son Dushara were symbolized by cuboid stone blocks also known as Djinn Blocks. More than 20 of these Djinn Blocks can be found on the outskirts of Petra, Jordan, usually close to a water source.
Nabatean pagans used to veil their fertility goddess with black cloth. The so called Kaaba at Mecca is a perfect replica of the cuboid stone blocks or Djinn Blocks and is veiled in black cloth thus representing the virgin mother sun-goddess Allat. The so called black stone in a dilated vulva shaped enclosure represents the crown of the sun-god Dushara being born from the virgin mother sun-goddess Allat, and is precisely aligned with the rising sun at winter solstice.
According to Epiphanius of Salamis (c.315-403), the birth of the sun-god Dushara was celebrated by the Nabatean pagans at winter solstice. On the night of the 25th of December, a festival occurred before the cuboidal stone block image of Allat; it ended with bringing forth from beneath the earth the image of the sun-god Dushara, which was carried seven times around the inner sanctuary of Allat?s temple. This is the source of Christmas being celebrated on 25th of December.
Dushara, also known in Greek transliteration as Dusares, was worshipped at Petra and Madain Saleh (of which city he was the patron deity) by the Nabataeans. In Greek times, he was associated with Zeus and Dionysus because he was the chief of the Nabataean pantheon. His sanctuary at Petra contained a great temple in which a large cuboidal stone was the centrepiece.
A gallery of Djinn Blocks found at Petra, Jordan, is as follows. Please note the perfect resemblance of the so called Kaaba in Mecca to these Djinn Blocks, including the pedestal at their bottom, and the proximity to a water source, which is called zam-zam in the case of the so called Kaaba in Mecca.
http//inlinethumb12.webshots.com/4171/1001904037000398380S600x600Q85.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks1.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks2.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks3.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks5.jpg
Please see the following links for additional details and reference
http//www.nisbett.com/holidays/christmas_pagan_parallels_to.htm
http//notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/fem4.htm#The%20Satanic%20verses
http//nabataea.net/gods.html
http//www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/dhushara.htm
http//www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm
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peace stillearning,
wow! Samia. In case you had not realised this thread is about the new sectists questioning that there is no evidence of the existance of Makka during Mohds time. Prhaps you did not discuss the word Makka but your inference was very clear. Anyway if your point was NOT that this verse could not mean Makka as city what exactly was your point...
Unless I have completely misunderstood you again. Your new post makes me suspect that you were deliberately trying to mislead.
regardsI think you have misunderstood.......the thread is about "who built the Kaaba that is in Mecca ?". was it built by Ibrahim and Ismael or not?
Those who don't agree that it was built by Ibrahim, have presented their own point of view/reasons in support of their understanding pertaining to "Kaaba and mecca" and one of their reason for not believing is the lack of evidence that "Mecca" existed during or before the time of prophet.
I hope I have made it clear?
peace
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A gallery of Djinn Blocks found at Petra, Jordan, is as follows. Please note the perfect resemblance of the so called Kaaba in Mecca to these Djinn Blocks, including the pedestal at their bottom, and the proximity to a water source, which is called zam-zam in the case of the so called Kaaba in Mecca.
Interesting pics tanveer bhai
Thanks.
peace
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I support samia's point of view, "Battan" is generally used for " belly " and city center is always described as"" Heart " ( Qalb ) so, if we take Mecca as a city , then Battan does not match up .The "New sectists" may not have reached the correct meanings of the words yet , but the "old sectists " (most likely) have it wrong.
peace
siki
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NAbster
Are you serious? How can it be written in The Quran if it is after the Prophet's death?
If you believe it is, you need to have your head examined, dude...I think it is you who needs overhauling of a damaged brained
This just discloses how intelligent you and your team is applauding each other for their lies and mistakes.
You while half awaked posted this
Nabster
Peace
History is written by the Victors...
After the death of Uthman, the early Muslims and the family of Mohammed (pubh) were massacred.
So the historical evidence we have were written under the patronage of the Umayyad and Abassid dynasties. These were dynasties more interested in power than in accuracy...
I can only accept archaeological and anthropological evidence. Even writings during the days of the Prophet can also be accepted if dating is precise enough.
Unfortunately we have none of the above.
What we have is The Quran, which speaks for Itself.Did you write it or not if you did I guess you never understood what you are writing? and irony on that you were asking Cheers from others and more Pathetic some were even cheering your non sense.
In your above post you issued the following statement
After the death of Uthman, the early Muslims and the family of Mohammed (pubh) were massacred.
How did you came to know this???????
WAs it written in Quran?? NO! (offcourse even elementry student of history and religon knows that but you were not able to get the taunt this only further discloses your intelligence level).The option left is by History? but what does our cheer hungry dude has to say about history we have already in his above post.
I am sorry I had to use bit harsh language in my post but that was due to your post i quoted above.
Regarding your comments on HAdith and Sunnah , I don't think so you are even capable of discussing these subjects as your posts have revealed.
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Agent xxx
Because I don?t agree with your understanding doesn?t mean that I haven?t read the whole Sura. if we all understand/interpret Quran/surah/verses in a similar manner, there wouldn't be any disagreements.
Well we are discussing. The whole Surah is about Musa and His people which Allah has told to Muhammad so he can warn the Meccans who have been never warned by any prophet by telling them the story of Moses.
Agent xxx
Because there is no surah or verse or any other evidence which says that they came to Mecca for pilgrimage, that is the reason why I am skeptical, so if you are familiar with any please do quote them.
Then how did you come to conclusion that
For pilgrimage? none of his close family member/decedents i.e. LUT, ISHAQ, YAQOOB, YOUSAF came to Mecca for pilgrimage?
If it is not in Quran then you are relying on history or am I wrong?
If on history then what makes your history more reliable then main stream? Give us proofs for it!There are lot of things which Quran does not say, does it mean that we can arrive at any conclusion of our will in absence of Quranic evidence??
Agent Xxx
Please can you quote any verse in support?
Abraham was buried by his sons, Isaac and Ishmael - Gen 258-9
This is a proof that Ismail cant be living far away from Hebron.
From here on it is for TANVEER and AgentXXX both
Abraham was buried by Isaac and Ismail, how does this proves that Isamil cannot be living far away from Hebron??
Even in those times people travelled a lot.
We know that ancient people (and even modern people) people move pretty often. Abraham's father, Terah moved his family from Ur to Haran (Genesis 1131). Abraham and Lot moved from Haran to Canaan (Genesis 124-5). Due to famine, he moved to Egypt (Genesis 1210). In history, once a group of people gets too large, they moved. We see this happening between Abraham and Lot (Genesis 136-1 (See this map for Abraham's journeys). They also moved because of the environment. Famine caused Abraham to go to Egypt (Genesis 1210), Isaac to go to the Philistines (Genesis 261) and Jacob's family to go to Egypt (Genesis 43). People also moved because of political reasons as people gets displaced. Aren't the Arabs originally nomadic tribes, who excelled in caravan trade? Did the ancestor of the Saxons come from England? Did the Franks come from France? Did the Aryans come from India? Anyone with a little sense of world history knows that this is not the case. These are all barbaric tribes who came and destroyed Europe (or India), settled there, and became part of the people there. In fact, the modern name of some of the European countries came from the names of the settlers. Even the Malays of Malaysia (despite the name of the country) were originally from Indonesia. In Kazakhstan, there is a group of Chinese Muslim people called the Dungan, who moved there from China after the Tungan Revolt in 1862-1877 AD.So how come it is a proof that Ismail was some where near, further it states in genesis
So actually it is telling us that Ismail settled faraway from his Papa and not as you are telling us.
2121 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
"Paran = 'two who migrated'"
Where is Paran located??
Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat Mountains". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains.
So it rather confirms that Ismail lived and settled in Paran "Makkah" and he and his Dad Abraham built the KAABA THAT IS IN MECCA!
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Now this verse of (Isaiah 60),
607 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.Is surely of before Muhammad, and in it Allah tells us clearly about his house and invites for piligrimage, the key word there being with regards to our discussion "Kedar"
What are or is Kedar?
The Arabs are called Kedar?s or Kedarites (Genesis 2513-16 and see Illustrated Dictionary & Concordance of the Bible- G.G. The Jersulem Publishing House Ltd 1986 pages 478 and 589).
This further confirms that the House of Allah existed even before Muhammad and Jesus in the Arab and all the historical evidences lead us to "Paran" MAKKAH" "BAKKAH" located in present day Saudi.
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ke'-dar (qedhar; Kedar) Second in order of the sons of Ishmael (Gen 2513 parallel 1 Ch 129). The name occurs as typical of a distant eastern country in opposition to the lands of the Mediterranean (Jer 210). The author of Second Isa introduces this tribe in company with Nebaioth, and both are represented as owners of flocks (Isa 607). Evidence of their nomadic habits appears in Jer 4928,29, where they are classed among the Bene-Qedhem, and mention is made of their flocks, camels, tents, curtains and furniture. They are spoken of (Isa 4211) as dwelling in chatserim ("villages", from which it would appear that they were a somewhat settled tribe, corresponding to the Arabic chadariya or "town-dwellers," as distinct from wabariya or "nomads." Ezekiel (2721) gives another hint of their pastoral nature where, in his detailed picture of the wealth of Tyre, Kedar and Arabia provide the Tyrians with lambs, rams and goats. The fame of the tribe is further reflected in Isa 2116,17 (the only allusion to their might in war), and in the figurative references to their tents (Ps 1205; Song 15). In this last passage where the tents are made symbolic of dark beauty, the word qadhar ("to be black" may have been in the writer's mind.
The settlements of Kedar were probably in the Northwest of Arabia, not far from the borders of Palestine. Assyrian inscriptions have thrown light upon the history of the tribe. There Kedar is mentioned along with the Arabs and Nebaioth, which decides its identity with Kedar of the Old Testament, and there is found also an account of the conflicts between the tribe and King Assurbanipal (see Margoliouth in HDB).
Of the Ishmaelite tribes, Kedar must have been one of the most important, and thus in later times the name came to be applied to all the wild tribes of the desert. It is through Kedar (Arabic, keidar) that Muslim genealogists trace the descent of Mohammed from Ishmael.
A. S. Fulton -
Agent xxx
Then how did you come to conclusion that
If it is not in Quran then you are relying on history or am I wrong?
If on history then what makes your history more reliable then main stream? Give us proofs for it!There are lot of things which Quran does not say, does it mean that we can arrive at any conclusion of our will in absence of Quranic evidence??
If you are implying the hadith hold any credibility empirically, oh lord, you should just keel over...
Look at how they were collected, referenced, classed. Any history is better than such rubbish.
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If you are implying the hadith hold any credibility empirically, oh lord, you should just keel over...
Look at how they were collected, referenced, classed. Any history is better than such rubbish.
Just don't dive in with your nose facing the ground, may be later we will have to hear a sound of OPFFFFFFFF...
Please try to understand what is being said or leave it to more credible posters, like Tanveer or AgentXXX who are having discussion or who started the thread.
Hadith has become such a terror for some of guys/girls over here that whenever they donot understand what is going on they come up with HADITH HADITH HADITH, even if there is no mention of any.
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But by your reckoning OPF, if a text contains wisdom it is a proof of god,some hadiths contain wisdom,no? Why the double standard in regard to sunnis?
ps; why do guys have a phobia against sunni hadith,and then use their own 'selected' history/hadiths to justify their beliefs instead? -
Just don't dive in with your nose facing the ground, may be later we will have to hear a sound of OPFFFFFFFF...
Please try to understand what is being said or leave it to more credible posters, like Tanveer or AgentXXX who are having discussion or who started the thread.
Hadith has become such a terror for some of guys/girls over here that whenever they donot understand what is going on they come up with HADITH HADITH HADITH, even if there is no mention of any.
I'm sorry, what other sources are there? Maybe I'm in the wrong, but most evidence pointing to Muhammad being in Makkah and circumabulating 7 times around a black cube with pagan symbols comes from the Hadith, no?
"Hadith has become such a terror for some of guys/girls over here that whenever they donot understand what is going on they come up with HADITH HADITH HADITH, even if there is no mention of any."
Oh, I am so deeply sorry that I take the corruption of a blessed religion by paganistic bastards who had s***ty sex lives, and large mouths quite seriously. Might thou forgivest me, I shall surely seek your(PBUH) intercession on the day of Judgement.
@Enquirer
No, that does not hold. Wisdom is from God, but it is not intrinsically proof of God. See my reply in the other thread. Well done on the trap fallacy, by the way.
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AOA Samia
So don't put words in my message and invent an opporunity to attack me in order to feel good about yourself.
What ever failings I have in life, believe me I have plenty to occupy me, outside this forum, and make me feel good than trying to get better of someone who appears to spend most of her time staring at a monitor.
I have no hesitation in admitting my own failings, which you and your fellow sectists appear to have problem with even when you contradict yourselves from one page to next.Let us deal with your post & Al-Fath in a little bit more detail
Quote
Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.So, they agree that it can't be used for cities. That's what I said. What makes it legitimate in their eyes is the preconception of the meaning, not because it is correct.
So how did you arrive to the conclusion that either my Arabic is poor or I am deliberately trying to misinform?
The above demonstrates how you misinterpret to prove your baseless theories. I was being perfectly honest with you.
The word Bibtan (or whichever way you want to say it) IS NOT ALWAYS USED, BUT CAN BE ON OCCASSIONS. In English this simply means that it is not used every time. Just as in English one can use, in, inside, midst, heart, interior?.to mean inside a city or town the same applies to Arabic. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT CAN?T BE USED FOR CITIES. I suggest you read my sentence again before reaching your triumphant conclusion. If you are not sure ask some one who may have better grasp of English than yourself.What makes it legitmate in their eyes is the preconception of the meaning, not because it is correct.
Now again your ego is making assumptions. There was no preconception here. My discussion involved every concept of the meaning of the word with no preconceived prejudices (I would have been quite happy to accept your version if it was the correct interpretation-for my main objective is to get to the truth).
Let me make this absolutely clear so that we don?t go around in circles. There is no doubt that the word can be used to mean inside, interior, midst etc of a City or town.
I have also learned that the word is more appropriately used to mean inside a city than inside/interior of destruction.biba6n is more logical to mean confront/confrontation than interior.
Ok! So that is what you have said
& this
What does (in the interior of Mecca) mean anyway? If this is bad English, it is also bad Arabic. Why not just (in Mecca)?
& I presume you agree with this,
"
biba6ni makkat" clearly means IN THE MIDST OF DESTRUCTION/WEARING DOWN- And it is He who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction/wearing down after that He gave you the victory over them. And The God sees all that you do.
Let us substitute what your meaning is in what your fellow sectist has written.
- And it is He who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the confront/confrontation destruction/wearing down after that He gave you the victory over them. And The God sees all that you do.
I don?t know! Perhaps it makes more sense in Arabic?
All other usages directly mean (stomach, uterus) which are the organs in the frontal.
I am afraid you have lost me here, what do you mean organs of the frontal?
From the history (which the new sect does not believe in ? unless it suits their point), Mohd Left Makka and eventually returned to Makka without a stone, arrow or any kung fu kicks being thrown in anger.
The following is the new sects very own translation (by the way word Makka is still there)
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
481
We have given you a clear conquest.
482
So that God may forgive your present sins, as well as those past, and so that He may complete His blessings upon you, and guide you on a straight path.
483
And God will grant you a conquest which is mighty.
484
He is the One who sends down tranquility into the hearts of the believers, so that they may increase in faith along with their present faith. And to God belongs the soldiers of the heavens and the Earth, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
485
That He may admit the believing men and believing women into estates with rivers flowing beneath them, abiding eternally therein, and He will remit their sins from them. And with God this is a great triumph.
486
And He will punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, and the idolater men and the idolater women, who think evil thoughts about God. Their evil will come back to them, and God was angry with them, and He has cursed them and prepared for them Hell. What a miserable destiny!
487
And to God belongs the soldiers of the heavens and the Earth. And God is Noble, Wise.
488
We have sent you as a witness, a bearer of good news, and a warner.
489
So that you may believe in God and His messenger, and that you may support Him, honor Him, and glorify Him, morning and evening.
4810
Those who pledge allegiance to you, are in-fact pledging allegiance to God; God's hand is above their hands. Those of them who violate such a pledge, are violating it only upon themselves. And whosoever fulfills what he has pledged to God, then He will grant him a great reward.
4811
The Nomads who lagged behind will say to you "We were preoccupied with our money and our family, so ask forgiveness for us." They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say "Who then would possess any power for you against God if He wanted harm to afflict you or if He wanted benefit for you?" No, God is fully Aware of everything you do.
4812
Alas, you thought that the messenger and the believers would not return to their families, and this was deemed pleasant in your hearts, and you thought the worst thoughts; you were a wicked people.SO WHAT IS GOD REFERING TO HERE. WHERE DID THE BELIEVERS FAMILIES LIVE. WHAT DOES THE HISTORY TELL US
4813
Anyone who does not believe in God and His messenger, then We have prepared for the rejecters a Hellfire.
4814
And to God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He forgives whomever He wills, and punishes whomever He wills. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
4815
Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils "Let us follow you!" They want to change God's words. Say "You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand." They will then say "No, you are envious of us." Alas, they rarely understood anything.
4816
Say to those Nomads who lagged behind "You will be called on to fight a people who are very powerful in warfare, unless they surrender. Then if you obey, God will grant you a good reward, but if you turn away as you turned away before, He will punish you with a painful retribution."
4817
There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
4818
God is pleased with the believers who pledged allegiance to you under the tree. He thus knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility upon them, and rewarded them with a near victory.
4819
And abundant spoils that they will take. God is Noble, Wise.
4820
God has promised you abundant spoils that you will take. Thus He has hastened this for you, and He has withheld the people's hands against you; that it may be a sign for the believers, and that He may guide you to a straight path.WHOSE HAND IS GOD WITHOLDING HERE.4821
And the other group which you could not vanquish, God took care of them. And God was capable of all things.WHICH GROUP DID GOD TAKE CARE OF HERE4822
And if the rejecters had fought you, they would have turned and ran, then they would have found neither an ally nor a victor.
4823
Such is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.
4824
And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.DOES THE HISTORY NOT TELL US THAT MOHD ENTERED MAKKA WITHOUT A FIGHT
4825
They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.If all this occurred in a town other than Makka. When the Pagans overthrow Islam, destroyed every evidence, killed every child, woman and man who believed in the true Islam. Rewrote every bit of history that we have today. What about the town/city where the believers families were. Did the inhabitants of this place not object to losing their privileged status or were they massacred as well?
Quote from Ra-jah
If it is not in Quran then you are relying on history or am I wrong?
If on history then what makes your history more reliable then main stream? Give us proofs for it!According to the newest sect, history does not exist unless it agrees with their view point.
Apologies if I don?t clap and cheer, I assume you are here to discuss and learn and not have your ego massaged.regards
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stillearning - you admit that it can be used to mean "midst" yet when it comes to relating it to destruction you keep referring to "interior of destruction" as a method of discrediting it as nonsensical
what's wrong with "amidst destruction"?
can nobody even point someone to a door and have them open it themselves anymore? we have to walk people up to the door, open it for them, shove them through and slam it behind them? come on
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Stillearning
This very long message, full of bashing, roaring, anger, name calling...etc..etc..just to show that I am wrong? I think it is backfiring, and is not proving anything except a poor way of discussing and analysing.
A better way is to pick up an Arabic-English dictionary ( I mentioned this before and even made some suggestions), look up the entry "b6n". If you find an example for its usage as "in town", I will own up to my error. Until then, I am not wasting my time with you.
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peace Rajah,
Agent xxx
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Because I don?t agree with your understanding doesn?t mean that I haven?t read the whole Sura. if we all understand/interpret Quran/surah/verses in a similar manner, there wouldn't be any disagreements.Rajah- Well we are discussing. The whole Surah is about Musa and His people which Allah has told to Muhammad so he can warn the Meccans who have been never warned by any prophet by telling them the story of Moses.
My dear, dear dear, rajah?..yes the whole surah is about the story of Moses??..but it is to convince the people that such knowledge of the past events is not possible without divine guidance/inspiration. and has nothing to do with "being the first warner"
The verses 322 and 366 also support ?what is said in 2846? but without mentioning the story of Moses.
Please ponder on all these verses.
AL-QASAS (THE STORY, STORIES)
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.-
And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, THEN THEY SHOULD SAY Our Lord! WHY DIDST THOU NOT SEND TO US A MESSENGER SO THAT WE SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THY COMMUNICATIONS and been of the believers !
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46
C3379. This people was the Quraish. 'Though thou didst not see how Moses was invested with the prophetic office at Mount Tur, thou hast had similar experience thyself, and We have sent thee to the Quraish TO WARN THEM OF ALL THEIR SINS, and to repent and come into the Faith'. -
47
C3380. Now that a warner has come among them WITH ALL THE AUTHORITY THAT PREVIOUS MESSENGERS POSSESSED and WITH ALL THE KNOWLEDGE WHICH CAN ONLY COME BY DIVINE INSPIRATION, they have no excuse left whatever. They cannot say, "No warner came to us." If any evil comes to them, as the inevitable result of their iii-deeds, they cannot blame Allah and say that they were not warned. Cf. xx. 134.
AS-SAJDA (THE PROSTRATION,WORSHIP, ADORATION)
Alif Lam Mim. 32 1.
The revelation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, is from the Lord of the worlds. 32 2.
Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER HAS COME BEFORE YOU, that THEY MAY FOLLOW THE RIGHT DIRECTION. 32 3.YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN)
Ya Seen. 36 1.
I swear by the Quran full of wisdom 36 2.
Most surely you are one of the messengers 36 3.
On a right way. 36 4
A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. 36 5.
THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE WHOSE FATHERS WERE NOT WARNED, so they are heedless. 36 6.C3946. The Quraish had received no Prophet before, and therefore one of themselves was made the vehicle for the universal Message to the whole world.
Now according to my understanding?.it is clear that the people to whom Mohammed is addressing did not receive any Warner/messenger before him?.neither did their forefathers received any warning before Mohammad.
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For pilgrimage? none of his close family member/decedents i.e. LUT, ISHAQ, YAQOOB, YOUSAF came to Mecca for pilgrimage?Rajah-If it is not in Quran then you are relying on history or am I wrong?
If on history then what makes your history more reliable then main stream? Give us proofs for it!The above mentioned verses are my proofs.
peace
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peace Rajah,
Rajah- Abraham was buried by Isaac and Ismail, how does this proves that Isamail cannot be living far away from Hebron??
When Abraham died, his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him together in the cave of Machpelah that he bought from Ephron the son Zohar the Hittite (Gen 258-9).
This grave is acknowledged by Muslims to be under the Mosque of Abraham in Hebron. since Ishmail was not living with Ibrahim when Ibrahim died, so Ishaq had to send a messenger to Ishmail (in Paran) to inform him.
If Ishmael was living in Mecca How many days it would have taken for a messenger from Hebron to Mecca and for Ishmael to make it to Hebron? The body of Abraham will be rotting very badly by then.
Unless Ishaq had a cell phone to inform Ismail about the death of their father and Ismail had a chopper service or a land cruiser ready to take him to Hebron?.I don?t think he would have made it to Hebron from Mecca in time to attend his father?s funeral either on foot or on a horse.
So it is more probable that Paran was just at the southern boundary of Canaan, from where Ishmail could make it within a day or two?Rajah- 2121 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
"Paran = 'two who migrated'"
Where is Paran located??
And wilderness = wastelands; forest; desert; range; back country; uninhabited region; garden for wild growth; wild or disordered state, jumble, confusing multitude
Should have been somewhere near Hebron?
http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/wildernessofparan-1.jpg
The biblical wilderness of Paran is partly in the Sinai Peninsula, including the city of Kadesh (Num. 1326) at its northern end. Kadesh Barnea is an identifiable place seen on most maps. Joshua 153 tells us that it is part of the border of the tribe of Judah. In particular, Paran was a wilderness territory, not a city, bordering to the south of Judah (1 Sam 251-5), which itself is the southern-most tribe of Israel.
Mecca is far removed from Judah and Kadesh-Barnea.
Why would Ibrahim banish his son so far away from him?
Rajah- Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat Mountains". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains.
Mount paran is the chain of mountains in kharian, Punjab. Which the local Punjabi call Pubbian ;D
The Arabs can call it what ever they like?.it serves their purpose .
There are people who say ?Murree? the hill station near Islamabad is named after Mary ?mother of Jesus? and she is buried there?.there is a Kadam gah of Ali in haiderabad, sind??.there is a foot print of Mohammed in ?Pakpattan??.there is a place kohkaf near ?Chitral? where they say the fairies live?am I to believe all this without any solid evidence?
rajah- Even in those times people travelled a lot.
We know that ancient people (and even modern people) people move pretty often.Abraham's father, Terah moved his family from Ur to Haran (Genesis 1131). Abraham and Lot moved from Haran to Canaan (Genesis 124-5). Due to famine, he moved to Egypt (Genesis 1210). In history, once a group of people gets too large, they moved. We see this happening between Abraham and Lot (Genesis 136-1 (See this map for Abraham's journeys). They also moved because of the environment. Famine caused Abraham to go to Egypt (Genesis 1210), Isaac to go to the Philistines (Genesis 261) and Jacob's family to go to Egypt (Genesis 43). People also moved because of political reasons as people gets displaced. Aren't the Arabs originally nomadic tribes, who excelled in caravan trade?
So it rather confirms that Ismail lived and settled in Paran "Makkah" and he and his Dad Abraham built the KAABA THAT IS IN MECCA!
Not According to 2846, 323, and 366 ?.. no Warner/messenger were sent to the Meccans and their fore fathers before Mohammad.
http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/ibrahimjourney.jpg
Map of Ibrahim's journey.People did migrate?but that migration didn?t happened in hours or day?.it took them months and years and some times generations to move from one place to the other depending upon the distances.
Ibrahim was 89 years old when Ismail was born and 99 when Ishaq was born, Ismael and hagar were banished few years after the birth of Ishaq.
Now please tell me ?did Ibrahim and ismail come to Mecca for the construction of kaaba before the birth of Ishaq? Or after he has banished hagar and ismail? ?..and why Mecca?
Mecca - Situated in the rocky foothills of the Hijaz Mountains, Mecca has a hot, arid climate, and lack of water and other resources have kept its population and economic fortunes heavily dependent on outside factors.
Medina - It is situated in a well-watered oasis where fruit, dates, vegetables, and grain are raised.
http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/arabia.jpg
Mecca is 1232 Km from Jerusalem.People usually migrate and settle at places which are better then the place of their origin?coming from the north toward Mecca they had to pass by Medina an oasis in the desert and 400 km shorter in distance then Mecca ?.what was so special about Mecca that made them travel so far?
Even when hagar and Ismail were banished and if they traveled toward the south, Medina would have been the ideal place for them to dwell.
rajah- This further confirms that the House of Allah existed even before Muhammad and Jesus in the Arab and all the historical evidences lead us to "Paran" MAKKAH" "BAKKAH" located in present day Saudi.
Wonder why? Jesus, Zikria or Yahya were least interested in this house of Allah
peace
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Peace
To those who say that claims on this web-site mean that the Arabs re-wrote their history do not get it.
The Arabs never wrote any of their history until well after the Prophets death, and then these were based on collections of chains of narrations going back to the Prophet or his Companions well after 200 years...
Up to those latter years, nothing was collected, (or if you want to believe in some hadiths, it was ordered by the Prophet and his Companions that all accounts on his life be destroyed), and no effort was made to make a cohesive story about what happened in the region...
Overall I do not have many problems with Hadith, I just do not accept them as a source of law, divine guidance, or even accurate historical accounts, The Quran is far from enough from me, and if I would follow most it says, I will be very pious indeed...
For the question who built the Kaabah, the obvious answer is The Saudis, and that's the end of it.
Is it Maqam Ibrahim, I have no idea...
By the way, sorry if I offended your fragile ego Rajah, I have to tell you though, Ahmed Bhaggat taught you well, you follow his rules of engagement to the tee ) -
Unless Ishaq had a cell phone to inform Ismail about the death of their father and Ismail had a chopper service or a land cruiser ready to take him to Hebron.I dont think he would have made it to Hebron from Mecca in time to attend his fathers funeral either on foot or on a horse.
So it is more probable that Paran was just at the southern boundary of Canaan, from where Ishmail could make it within a day or two?Correction Ever heard of Buraq? We shouldn't be sceptical if possible explanations are there. Alhamdulillah
Ibrahim was 89 years old when Ismail was born and 99 when Ishaq was born, Ismael and hagar were banished few years after the birth of Ishaq.
Now please tell me did Ibrahim and ismail come to Mecca for the construction of kaaba before the birth of Ishaq? Or after he has banished hagar and ismail? ..and why Mecca?
Correction again A prophet has more power than a normal human being SubhanAllah doubts should be clear now.....Please know about Buraq that is very swift. Alhamdulillah
People usually migrate and settle at places which are better then the place of their origincoming from the north toward Mecca they had to pass by Medina an oasis in the desert and 400 km shorter in distance then Mecca .what was so special about Mecca that made them travel so far?
Even when hagar and Ismail were banished and if they traveled toward the south, Medina would have been the ideal place for them to dwell.
I dont know from where you people read history....okey let me tell.........kaaba was first built by Baba Adam Saheb......now Allah told Ibrahim to rebuilt it. SA is also an oil rich country..that is another sepecial thing about mecca. Like I said before bros we shouldn't be sceptical when all the satisfying answers are there. Alhamdulillah. May god accept our humble efforts. Amin
Ah, sorry I have to come again to clear one more doubt
Wonder why? Jesus, Zikria or Yahya were least interested in this house of Allah Wink
This is another misconception that they never visited. We should only say Allah never told us if they visited! But alhamdulillah as a Muslim we all believe that they all definitely visited it for sure with great passion. MashaAllah.
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Correction Ever heard of Buraq? We shouldn't be sceptical if possible explanations are there. Alhamdulillah
Correction again A prophet has more power than a normal human being SubhanAllah doubts should be clear now.....Please know about Buraq that is very swift. Alhamdulillah
I wonder where this "burraq" was at the time of Mohammed's hijrat to Medina confused
peace