Kaaba again - destroy idols
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What are you trying to prove? What is the case that is closed? Are you having an imaginary debate with yourself? Of course I am aware of those quranic verses. It is God that is preserving the Quran but He has done so through nobel companions and true muslims of previous generations. God did not preserve it by carving the verses on metal tablets!
Good point yes
But our intellect has a limit and we should respect the authorities in religion who have a greater knowledge and wisdom in reading the scripture. I for sure take whatever Tabari says over what some guy behind his laptop somwhere in the world with a fake name is saying.
Bad point, nope
siki
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Peace all,
Some people love to go see their beloved black cuboid idol and the black stone representing Allat and Dushara and uphold the pagan rituals by mindlessly spinning seven times around them and kissing them, exactly like the pagan Arabs did, thus celebrating the birth of their sun-god. Where is this sanctioned by The God in al-qur'aan ? If that is not setting up partners with The God then what is ? Then they claim they are "muslims". If that is not hypocrisy then what is ?
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
12106 And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners.
The God has told us that He will expose the hypocrites
964 The hypocrites fear that a chapter will be sent down which will expose what is in their hearts. Say "Mock, for God will bring out what you fear."
This is how He exposed them
631 When the hypocrites come to you they say "We bear witness that you are the messenger of God." And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
And this is what He recommends
849 The hypocrites and those who have a disease in their hearts said "These people have been deceived by their system." But whoever puts his trust in God, then God is Noble, Wise.
Some people refuse to accept when The God tells us that He made His message clear
2187 ................. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
3118 ................. We have made clear for you the signs if you comprehend.
5717 ................. We have made clear to you the signs, perhaps you may understand.
1689 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the scripture clearly explaining everything, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.
They refuse to accept when The God tells them that it is up to Him to explain His signs to us
7517 It is for Us to gather it into a compilation.
7518 So when We compile it, you shall follow its compilation.
7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.They insist on seeking the help of the so called "religious authorities" to explain The God's signs to them and to guide them to the truth, instead of using their own mind and reason and putting their trust in The God
1035 Say "Are there any of those whom you set up as partners who can guide to the truth?" Say "God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or the one who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge?"
This is what The God says about the so called "religious authorities"
934 O you who believe, many of the religious leaders and monks consume people's money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
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Peace Ayman,
(you should really use CE instead of AD, unless you take Jesus as your lord).
Anno Domini; AD = Christian/Common Era; CE.
It?s a standard. Perhaps you should use AH; that is if you believe there was Hijra.What year according to your timeline; same as below?
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6
"622 on 16th Tammuz (16th July AD 622) = 1 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, this day is the beginning of the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs, that is to say the first year of the Hadj according to the Julian, (not the present Gregorian) calendar. This date AH 1, is used as year 1 for dates given in the Islamic era, (AH)."What about city? Surely you believe there was a city?
2791 For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this CITY, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-
901 I do call to witness this CITY;-
902 And thou art a freeman of this CITY;-WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the timeline that you base your entire faith in some pagan stones on is BOGUS. This is because we are fortunate to have irrefutable physical archeological evidence that completely demolishes this timeline.
The starting and thus most important point that they build their timeline on is way off according to the inscription of Abraha, which commemorates his expedition into Arabia. The date on the inscription translates into 552CE, which is 18 years prior to when Ibn Hisham and Tabari proposed date.
Really ? which expedition by Abraha, to where, and which year?
http//www.dacb.org/stories/ethiopia/_abraha.html
"We are fortunate in possessing irrefutable epigraphic sources which throw further light on 'Abraha's career. Of these the most important is the long inscription on the Marib dam which records the quelling of an insurrection backed by a son of the deposed ruler Esimiphaeus in the year 657 of the Sabaean era, i.e. between 540-550 A.D.; vital repairs effected to the dam later in the same year; the reception of envoys from the negus, from Byzantium, from Persia and from Harith b. Djabalat, the phylarch of Arabia; and the completion of repairs to the dam in the following year, followed by a great feast of rejoicing. The inscription indicates that the reign of 'Abraha was a period of security and prosperity for the Yemen. The royal title adopted by 'Abraha is similar to that of his immediate predecessors and to that of Emperor Kal?b, "King of Saba' and dh?-Rayd?n and Hadramawt and Yamanat and of their Arabs on the plateau and the lowland." A further text (Ryckmans 506) discovered at Muraygh?n records a defeat inflicted by 'Abraha on the North Arabian tribe of Ma'add in the year 662 of the Sabaean era.
No reliable information exists about the date of 'Abraha's death although tradition places it immediately after his expedition to Mecca."
http//www.britannica.com/eb/article-9003378/Abraha
We also have Roman manuscripts which tell us the dates of when the Arabs started invading their territories and correlate them with other well documented dates. For example, Jacob of Edessa (died 70, tells us that the kingdom of the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year. This translates into 620-21CE. According to Ibn Hisham and Tabari, by that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
http//www.1911encyclopedia.org/Jacob_Of_Edessa
"In the literature of his country Jacob holds much the same place as Jerome among the Latin fathers"
Care to post exactly what he wrote with his unbiased opinion and why?
This is what you are basing your entire belief system on...
You are free to adore stones and mindlessly spin around a stone cube based on what Ibn Hisham and Tabari say but don't claim that it has anything to do with the great reading.
To me it?s simply a rock and likewise you are free to follow conjectures that spin inside your head and base your entire belief system on Jacob of Edessa readings.
Peace
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Some people love to go see their beloved black cuboid idol and the black stone representing Allat and Dushara and uphold the pagan rituals by mindlessly spinning seven times around them and kissing them, exactly like the pagan Arabs did, thus celebrating the birth of their sun-god. Where is this sanctioned by The God in al-qur'aan ? If that is not setting up partners with The God then what is ? Then they claim they are "muslims". If that is not hypocrisy then what is ?
Bro Tanveer this is not true, people do not know the truth, neither they know that black cuboid is an idol. I myself didn't know that and thus wanted to go there for hajj but now I would never ever go there. If I have to go I would go with a hammer to smash the Idols http//www.smileyhut.com/angry/crash.gif. Alhamdulillah. But I wouldn't say those people Mushrik because they dont know it.
Peace....
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Bro Tanveer this is not true, people do not know the truth, neither they know that black cuboid is an idol. I myself didn't know that and thus wanted to go there for hajj but now I would never ever go there. If I have to go I would go with a hammer to smash the Idols http//www.smileyhut.com/angry/crash.gif. Alhamdulillah. But I wouldn't say those people Mushrik because they dont know it.
Peace....
Maybe they are not mushriks, but their likeness is "The likeness of those who were entrusted with the "torah" but did not commit to it, is the likeness of a donkey carrying a load of books..."
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622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
most people dont believe they are mushriks
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Maybe they are not mushriks, but their likeness is "The likeness of those who were entrusted with the "torah" but did not commit to it, is the likeness of a donkey carrying a load of books..."
These examples are only for jews and christians. Muslims are only innocents and we only need to tell them the truth.....
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is the taliban innocent too then?
They are innocent turned terrorists......and uncle sam approves that!.
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Peace Nun,
Anno Domini; AD = Christian/Common Era; CE.
No.
Anno Domini = year of our lord (Jesus).
CE = Common Era.It is not surprising that someone who reveres and defends some special stones in Mecca wouldn't see anything wrong with calling Jesus his lord.
It?s a standard. Perhaps you should use AH; that is if you believe there was Hijra.
The word "hijri" doesn't appear for over 100 years on Islamic inscriptions and manuscripts. Given that the kingdom of the Arabs was already established by 621CE, the emigration certainly happened earlier.
What year according to your timeline; same as below?
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6
"622 on 16th Tammuz (16th July AD 622) = 1 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, this day is the beginning of the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs, that is to say the first year of the Hadj according to the Julian, (not the present Gregorian) calendar. This date AH 1, is used as year 1 for dates given in the Islamic era, (AH)."Hmm... no mention of Hijra here. All that Elias said was that it is the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs. This is in line with what Jacob said. Namely, that the kingdom of the Arabs was established on that year and that is when they started raiding Palestine.
What about city? Surely you believe there was a city?
Why are you being paranoid. Yes, there are many cities everywhere.
2791 For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this CITY, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-
901 I do call to witness this CITY;-
902 And thou art a freeman of this CITY;-Why am I not surprised that the passages don't say "I do call to witness Mecca" or "And thou art a freeman of Mecca"?
Don't you wish that the passages said Mecca instead of "this city"? As long as you idolize the special stones in Mecca, you will wish for that and there will always be doubt in your heart.
Others will wish that the god said Jerusalem or whatever place they have an emotional attachment to or that has a "special" stone or rock.
On the other hand, I trust in the god and thus I know for certain that the city is not important and that is why he didn't name it.
Really ? which expedition by Abraha, to where, and which year?
Abraha had only one expedition in Arabia which is documented in the inscription. A few years later, the Abassynians were defeated by the Sassanids NOT the Arabs as tradtions claim. Even so-called Islamic history doesn't claim that Abraha had more than one expedition into Arabia. Are you going to come now over a millenium later and claim that he had other expeditions just so that you can argue with me in defending your miserable stones?
http//www.dacb.org/stories/ethiopia/_abraha.html
"We are fortunate in possessing irrefutable epigraphic sources which throw further light on 'Abraha's career. Of these the most important is the long inscription on the Marib dam which records the quelling of an insurrection backed by a son of the deposed ruler Esimiphaeus in the year 657 of the Sabaean era, i.e. between 540-550 A.D.; vital repairs effected to the dam later in the same year; the reception of envoys from the negus, from Byzantium, from Persia and from Harith b. Djabalat, the phylarch of Arabia; and the completion of repairs to the dam in the following year, followed by a great feast of rejoicing. The inscription indicates that the reign of 'Abraha was a period of security and prosperity for the Yemen. The royal title adopted by 'Abraha is similar to that of his immediate predecessors and to that of Emperor Kal?b, "King of Saba' and dh?-Rayd?n and Hadramawt and Yamanat and of their Arabs on the plateau and the lowland." A further text (Ryckmans 506) discovered at Muraygh?n records a defeat inflicted by 'Abraha on the North Arabian tribe of Ma'add in the year 662 of the Sabaean era.As I said, the year 662 of the Sabaean era translates into about 552CE. This is almost 20 years prior to the date proposed by Tabari and Ibn Hisham. Why do you have infinite trust in Ibn Hisham and Tabari despite all the archeological evidence to the contrary?
No reliable information exists about the date of 'Abraha's death although tradition places it immediately after his expedition to Mecca."
http//www.britannica.com/eb/article-9003378/AbrahaWhat are you talking about? Who cares about Abraha's death? Please focus!!
Where is Mecca mentioned in the inscription? Of course it is not!!! Did Abarha know that you and I were going to have this conversation and thus he conspired with me against you and deliberetly didn't write Mecca in his inscription?
Did all ancient people up to the mid 8th century CE conspire with me and they all erased Mecca from all manuscripts and inscriptions?
http//www.1911encyclopedia.org/Jacob_Of_Edessa
"In the literature of his country Jacob holds much the same place as Jerome among the Latin fathers"
Care to post exactly what he wrote with his unbiased opinion and why?"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
According to traditions, at that time the prophet and his followers haven't even emigrated yet and they were escaping in fear of persecution by the pagans and were barely surviving. Yet Jacob tells us that they had a kingdom and were beginning to carry out raids against the Romans in Palestine. According to traditions, this didn't happen until at least 10 years later.
Now I am sure that Jacob didn't conspire with me to prove you wrong. Nor did he conspire with anyone to prove Tabari and Ibn Hisham wrong. They weren't even born yet!!!
You conveniently ignore to address the fact that this is not an isolated incident or anomaly. This pattern of misdating can be found throughout so-called Islamic stories. Did Jacob and Abraha conspire with me to develop a pattern of misdating in Hadith and Sira that pushes events forward and narrator age backwards to make them overlap? Did Jacob and Abraha rewrite the age of many Hadith narrators to make it as if they lived well over a hundred years?
To me it?s simply a rock and likewise you are free to follow conjectures that spin inside your head and base your entire belief system on Jacob of Edessa readings.
If it is simply a rock like any other then why not spin around any rock? Why don't you go around kissing rocks hoping that your sins will be forgiven and you will return sinless as a newborn? What would you think if you walk down the street in Albania (I guess this is where you are from) and see a bunch of half naked guys wearing nothing but towels spinning around a stone cube and kissing a bunch of broken stones glued together in one of its corners? You would surely think that they are some crazy pagan cult. This is the natural god-given instinctive reaction that anyone will have. Those mindless rituals and inert stones are exactly the same as yours. So what makes your stones and you rituals acceptable and make you defy your god-given common sense, while theirs are not? It is that these are YOUR stones and rituals while the others are THEIRS. It is nothing but arrogance.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all,
Some people love to go see their beloved black cuboid idol and the black stone representing Allat and Dushara and uphold the pagan rituals by mindlessly spinning seven times around them and kissing them, exactly like the pagan Arabs did, thus celebrating the birth of their sun-god. Where is this sanctioned by The God in al-qur'aan ? If that is not setting up partners with The God then what is ? Then they claim they are "muslims". If that is not hypocrisy then what is ?
How dare you calling 1.5 billion muslims idol worshippers? Who are you and on what authority you make such a big claim? You are a hypocrite by calling 1.5 billion muslims hypocrites. You are a nobody whose voice is not heard and you resort to this lonely corner on the so called free-minds to be with people worse than yourself. Your faith is weak and your roots are loose. You have not understood Tawheed or Quran. You speak of Quran but you disrespect the people who followed it the most i.e. the noble companions. Your heart is filled with anger and hatred towards the muslimoon. Your life is in vein and your deeds are ruined. You worship yourself and your corrupted theories. One drop of faith has not entered your rotten heart.
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How dare you calling 1.5 billion muslims idol worshippers? Who are you and on what authority you make such a big claim? You are a hypocrite by calling 1.5 billion muslims hypocrites. You are a nobody whose voice is not heard and you resort to this lonely corner on the so called free-minds to be with people worse than yourself. Your faith is weak and your roots are loose. You have not understood Tawheed or Quran. You speak of Quran but you disrespect the people who followed it the most i.e. the noble companions. Your heart is filled with anger and hatred towards the muslimoon. Your life is in vein and your deeds are ruined. You worship yourself and your corrupted theories. One drop of faith has not entered your rotten heart.
oh my god.....this is hilarious am sorry.... rotfl ................. But why do you think Muslims need any certificate of Tawheed from brother tanveer?.....I would request tanveer to give certificate of tauheed to all Muslims please.
But in the grand mosque people clearly prostrate to cube-building, its just they dont realise what they are doing....I have seen myself on the tv....... May God give some wisdom to all of us.
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hajirfm,
could you please refrain from polluting my thread thank you,
no members name calling here, I suggest you read the rules of this board...
it seems a raw nerve was hit with you, hmmm, that might mean that your foundations are pretty shaky,
or otherwise why would you be so easily rattled if you know you were right?...
enjoy your 1.5 billions in numbers, if Allah saw an atom weight of Iman in them they would not be enslaved as they are by outside agencies...
keep spinning love... -
How dare you calling 1.5 billion muslims idol worshippers? Who are you and on what authority you make such a big claim? You are a hypocrite by calling 1.5 billion muslims hypocrites. You are a nobody whose voice is not heard and you resort to this lonely corner on the so called free-minds to be with people worse than yourself. Your faith is weak and your roots are loose. You have not understood Tawheed or Quran. You speak of Quran but you disrespect the people who followed it the most i.e. the noble companions. Your heart is filled with anger and hatred towards the muslimoon. Your life is in vein and your deeds are ruined. You worship yourself and your corrupted theories. One drop of faith has not entered your rotten heart.
Salam, Hajirfm.
There are 1.3 billion "Muslims" on Earth at the time of writing. There are 6.5 billion people. This means you imply that some 4.9 billion people who could not possibly go wrong are mushriks, the very same thing here.
Write that down, Tay. Fallacy Appeal to quantity.
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Greetings,
Salam.
And who would dare to cause that?
Sometimes i ask myself the same question, what would happen if someone did something really awful like .... well, i don't wanna give ideas, but it would start a war, a world war, an universal war, the war that would be equal to a flood from the beginning.Peace.
Well, certainly the "muslims" will be very infuriated because their "Allah"'s house was destroyed and to their astonishment their "Allah" could not do anything to protect it from being destroyed. There will be no house for their "Allah" to live in, at least temporarily. They will soon rebuild it and start worshiping their "Allah" again.
Anwar Azim
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Greetings,
Well, certainly the "muslims" will be very infuriated because their "Allah"'s house was destroyed and to their astonishment their "Allah" could not do anything to protect it from being destroyed. There will be no house for their "Allah" to live in, at least temporarily. They will soon rebuild it and start worshiping their "Allah" again.
Anwar Azim
Allah does not live anywhere. But god has referred to ka'bah as 'baytee' (my house) in the Quran. How do you make sense of that Mr. Smart?
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Greetings,
Allah does not live anywhere. But god has referred to ka'bah as 'baytee' (my house) in the Quran. How do you make sense of that Mr. Smart?
If you are smart enough to understand that "Allah does not live anywhere", then you should also be able to make sense of "baytee" as well.
Give it a try...Anwar Azim
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Peace Ayman,
The word "hijri" doesn't appear for over 100 years on Islamic inscriptions and manuscripts. Given that the kingdom of the Arabs was already established by 621CE, the emigration certainly happened earlier.
You agree it happened; when/where according to your timeline ? to Yathrib?
Hmm... no mention of Hijra here. All that Elias said was that it is the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs. This is in line with what Jacob said. Namely, that the kingdom of the Arabs was established on that year and that is when they started raiding Palestine.
Use anyone?s timeline for Jerusalem you like; Jews, Christians?
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jerusalem+timeline&btnG=Google+Search
614 Persian conquest of Jerusalem.
628 Emperor Heraculis recaptures the city.
638 Six years after the Mohammed's death, Caliph Omar captures Jerusalem; Jews readmittedWhole point was that Islam sprang no where near there else they would have to contend with Persians and Byzantines which was not the case.
Abraha had only one expedition in Arabia which is documented in the inscription...
What are you talking about? Who cares about Abraha's death? Please focus!!Where is Mecca mentioned in the inscription? Of course it is not!!! Did Abarha know that you and I were going to have this conversation and thus he conspired with me against you and deliberetly didn't write Mecca in his inscription?
They exported ivory, trained baby elephants and like showing off in elephant chariots to visiting emissaries, and their coins with wheat around King's head was their symbol which fits Qur?an?
http//www.homestead.com/wysinger/coin1.jpg
1051 Have you not seen what your Lord did to the people of the elephant?
1055 Until He turned them like devoured hay."All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
I read the above paragraph as separate events?
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'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia.
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that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE),
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and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'"
Else according to your logic, 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia while raiding them at the same time?
What would you think if you walk down the street in Albania (I guess this is where you are from) and see a bunch of half naked guys wearing nothing but towels spinning around a stone cube and kissing a bunch of broken stones glued together in one of its corners? You would surely think that they are some crazy pagan cult.
No, I?d think they were Albanian?
Feja e Shqiptarit eshte Shqiptaria ? The Albanian's faith is Albanianism!
Most idolize nationality and believe they originated from pure white Aryan rocks and the Albanian language (Illyrian) is so old that Adam spoke it. LOL
I agree, people should not worship other than God and couldn?t care if it was a pebble that marks the spot ? it is a place of unity, a focal point.
nothing but arrogance.
Peace Ayman
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