Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
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Peace, Samia.
I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".
Lisanul 3arab nashz (n) elevated part of earth; nashaza (v) to rise, to be higher than its normal place; to stand up or get up.
Nushouz of huband or wife to look down upon the other
In the qur'aan
5811 = to rise up "..and when you are told to rise up, rise up. Allah will exalt in degrees those who believe..."2259 = to put on top "...look at the bones, how We put them on each other then clothe them with flesh"
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......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)
When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).Peace...
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......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)
When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).Peace...
Exactly!
The two women are the example of "rijaal seekers, movers " who work, have money and spend . The fact that women can also be rich is not exceptional. Rich men have daughters, wives, sisters who inherit them, that is the least to say. God has advised men to be fair to their wives. Now it is the turn of women who support the family to be God fearing and not arrogant.
How can anybody beat someone who pays his rent and food?
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Why then would she like to live with a man who beat her? confused
may be she is masochist.....
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Peace siki,
Separate/leave/travel/get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To beat them makes no sense and contradicts the rest of Qur?an.
Peace my dear NUN
I appreciate your effort for providing me with references. i have examined them and here is my opinion.
In all of these occurrences , The term "Daraaba" is combined with "Fil Ardee" except 38-44
The word daraaba when combined with the term "Fill Ardee" conveys a different meaning , which is "going out in the land" or in other words it is like, " When you hit the road /Go and hit the road/they went about pouncing the earth "etc.
38-44 does not have this syntax and the word daraaba is singly used, and hence it conveys the meaning of striking . (you may like to recheck with some other translations)
Formulation/context of the sentence is very important in determing the correct meaning of a word in a particular sentence, we just can't pick up any dictionary or lane and then randomly replace a word to derive a meaning of our choice.
lets take the example of the word Strike in English.
" I will strike you"
"The union called for a strike"
"Strike out this option"
In fighter pilot's language , when some one tells his fellow aviator that he is scheduled for a "strike", it means he is flying a ground attack profile.The word "Darraba" when used alone , conveys the meaning of strike/hit, and in that particular verse as the subject is/are human so that can only mean HIT THEM.
Samia had a valid argument that strike in terms of hit should be generally combined with some thing like , hit where? with what? Her observation is correct but is not a rule, The sentence is grammatically and linguistically still correct even if the objects are not specified. And in this particular case divine wisdom probably did not want to limit its application. He left it to individual choice/situation/wisdom.
NADIA! Thank you very much for your referral that was helpfull.
God Bless
sikandar
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Salam,
hajirfm you said "If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'." elektro
If God says utrokoohunna then many men would believe that they should leave (including leaving the financial responsibility, leaving the relationship). That's not what God wants because clearly God loves for couples to reconcile (especially if there are children).
He wouldn't say "talleqoohunna" because God doesn't like divorce (as seen in Quran) and gives people time apart and a chance to get back together.
So God provides a word which implies Temporality (temporarily leave). adhreb = strike (temporary break - stoppage in order to bargain or reach agreement)
Adhred alta3am (food) = strike against food (hunger strike)
Adhreb Al-shoghl = strike against work (go on strike)
Adhred Al-nisa / adrebhunna = strike against the woman (temporarily leave her) ----> hunna is just a pronoun = Them (femenine)God always wants people to have a TIME (break) before divorce (whether to give time to see if the woman is pregnant or to cool off). He even says that if you hate your woman, you could be hating something in which God has placed a lot of good.
God says that men and women are equal, that they have affection and mercy between them and other words like that. He doesn't give men a right to oppress or hit women in any way. As a matter of fact we know from the Quran that God doesn't like oppression or the aggressors.
Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.
Traditionally men (males) corrupted Hadith and religious guidelines so they can gain power in the home and society.
You're free to disagree. But God is also the best Sociologist and Social Worker, and He knows what's best. Look at Quran as a whole & the reason for it = peace.
Salam peace
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Peace all,
And are we, as wives, meant to suffer at the (possible) tyranny of our husband, living in fear of doing that which he deems 'unacceptable' --if this matter is something that is going to be decided by his disgression? That fear that a woman carries in her heart of physical abuse from her husband (which easily stretches into other matters) smacks of shirk in my life's experience and understanding.
How do you explain that?
Well you better open your eyes before you marry anybody. This verse doesn't give permission to men to be abusive. It allows beating only in very stricted circumstances. Most women don't go that far. We are not talking about you. We are talking about a woman who is acting irresponsible toward her family.
And please keep the label of shirk out of the picture for now. Well what do I expect from this forum where some people here consider all muslims mushrik except their small group.
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Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.
Salaam peace4life, all
I agree with your post, except what I am quoting of it. This meaning is neither supported by known arabic dictionaries nor by the usage in the qur'aan of this word/derivatives.
There is another interesting, and more plausible meaning of "dharaba" which is cited in "lisanul3arab" to have intercourse with.
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Salam,
hajirfm you said "If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'." elektro
If God says utrokoohunna then many men would believe that they should leave (including leaving the financial responsibility, leaving the relationship). That's not what God wants because clearly God loves for couples to reconcile (especially if there are children).
He wouldn't say "talleqoohunna" because God doesn't like divorce (as seen in Quran) and gives people time apart and a chance to get back together.
So God provides a word which implies Temporality (temporarily leave). adhreb = strike (temporary break - stoppage in order to bargain or reach agreement)
Adhred alta3am (food) = strike against food (hunger strike)
Adhreb Al-shoghl = strike against work (go on strike)
Adhred Al-nisa / adrebhunna = strike against the woman (temporarily leave her) ----> hunna is just a pronoun = Them (femenine)God always wants people to have a TIME (break) before divorce (whether to give time to see if the woman is pregnant or to cool off). He even says that if you hate your woman, you could be hating something in which God has placed a lot of good.
God says that men and women are equal, that they have affection and mercy between them and other words like that. He doesn't give men a right to oppress or hit women in any way. As a matter of fact we know from the Quran that God doesn't like oppression or the aggressors.
Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.
Traditionally men (males) corrupted Hadith and religious guidelines so they can gain power in the home and society.
You're free to disagree. But God is also the best Sociologist and Social Worker, and He knows what's best. Look at Quran as a whole & the reason for it = peace.
Salam peace
Salam. I disagree. God could be more specefic about leaving them temporarily. Women have to wait a certain period before getting married again anyways (as you said to make sure they are not pregnant and also to see if they change their minds). So what would be the wisdom behind that verse? It will read like "Admonish them and leave them in their sleeping places and leave them (temporarily)". It simply doesn't make sense to me. Leave them for how long? Can we leave them for one year? Two years? As long as it takes? What are the rules regarding this? Did prophet elaborate on this? Did any case like this happen during his time?
In fact some men do leave their wives and refuse to divorce them. They go about their business and get married again but the poor woman can't get married unless the husband divorces her and he refuses to do so. Is this what you are advocating? You can't leave your wife for an undetermined period of time even if it is temporary. You see the period before the second marriage is a certain number of months (If I remember it's about 4 months but correct me if this is not so). If you are suggesting that the verse is saying leave your wives (and go find another house to live in) then somehow we should know how long this leave should be. You can't just say as long as it takes. That's not fair to anybody.
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Salam Samia,
intercourse??? are you serious??? ???
peace
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Salaam peace4life, all
I agree with your post, except what I am quoting of it. This meaning is neither supported by known arabic dictionaries nor by the usage of in the qur'aan of this word/derivatives.
There is another interesting, and more plausible meaning of "dharaba" which is cited in "lisanul3arab" to have intercourse with.
What a joke! Have intercourse with her when you are having an argument? I never tried that and I don't think I will because I will be beaten up real bad.
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What a joke! Have intercourse with her when you are having an argument? I never tried that and I don't think I will because I will be beaten up real bad.
Have you tried, then beating her and found that it worked?
Lol, I am glad to hear that your wife could beat you, even when you are trying to be nice ;DWhere is this argument in the verse? (ad3u ela sabeeli rabbika bil7ikmati wal maw3ithatil 7asana) preach for the way of your God by wisdom and good advice. What's wrong with having an intimate relation with the spouse after a good advice? And why are you happy jumping in the wagon of desertation and beating, but not the good approach?
We take these three options as if they are only stages. They can be stages, but there is no reason why they are not seperate options. Desert her in bed could be just what she was already doing and earned her the title of "nashez". In this case deserting her is redundant.
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Salam Samia,
intercourse??? are you serious??? ???
peace
If you do not believe me, look up the verb in any clasical Arabic dictionary (I use lisanul 3arab). What made me not see it was that I was not reading the whole entry, just doing fast reading, jumping lines.
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Have you tried, then beating her and found that it worked?
Lol, I am glad to hear that your wife could beat you, even when you are trying to be nice ;DWhere is this argument in the verse? (ad3u ela sabeeli rabbika bil7ikmati wal maw3ithatil 7asana) preach for the way of your God by wisdom and good advice. What's wrong with having an intimate relation with the spouse after a good advice? And why are you happy jumping in the wagon of desertation and beating, but not the good approach?
We take these three options as if they are only stages. They can be stages, but there is no reason why they are not seperate options. Desert her in bed could be just what she was already doing and earned her the title of "nashez". In this case deserting her is redundant.
We have had little arguments but we can sort it out by talking. This is how many issues are resolved between spouses.
Yes you do give advice. That's the first step. But what if your beautiful preaching doesns't work? Then you separate your beds. What if that didn't work? Have intercourse with her? Where is the logic in that? Maybe it works for some couples at some situations but generally that will be disasterous and smells more like marital rape to me.
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SALAM
Leave her Temporarily, as per Sura 65. (may lead to divorce).
3 months
wait till she gives birth if she's pregnant... No wife beating/striking! (what if the woman is you or your mother or sister?)
Refer to what Sura 65 explains about relationships.
Peace.
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SALAM
Leave her Temporarily, as per Sura 65. (may lead to divorce).
3 months
wait till she gives birth if she's pregnant... No wife beating/striking! (what if the woman is you or your mother or sister?)
Refer to what Sura 65 explains about relationships.
Peace.
You're right.
Also What is the "nashez" wife is pregnant? Will the husband wait untill she gives birth and then beat her up?
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Salam,
So in conclusion dharaba is Idhrab - strike against her/leave her temporarily. Connects perfectly with the concepts in the Quran and connects to Sura 65 and the values in it (The relationship by then would be at a bad stage anyway) - So it could or could not lead to divorce. God is just, merciful.
Peace
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We have had little arguments but we can sort it out by talking. This is how many issues are resolved between spouses.
Yes you do give advice. That's the first step. But what if your beautiful preaching doesns't work? Then you separate your beds. What if that didn't work? Have intercourse with her? Where is the logic in that? Maybe it works for some couples at some situations but generally that will be disasterous and smells more like marital rape to me.
There are many different causes for dispute. Suppose the case is that she feels that her husband is not paying much attention to her. No advice will be useful, especially if she is the shy type. These advices are NOT to discipline the wife, but to find a solution. We have to take into consideration that the wife's (nushuz) may be a reaction to something. If advice does not work, the husband has to look into himself. Maybe she is "rebelling" because he is having too much sex (for her) or too little. Deserting in bed should not be seen as if it is a punishment to the wife. Men do not use it to punish women. It is the other way round.
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Well you better open your eyes before you marry anybody. This verse doesn't give permission to men to be abusive.
I've been married for over 18 years and I will tell you that a man who decides that he can hit a woman for one good reason, can easily and likely find another 'good reason' to hit her. This is a fact of faulty human behavior. Not an assumption. I don't believe that god would ask those of us in a close relationship to set up a situation where one is forcefully over another. Once the cat gets out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in, as they say. If people are not careful, the man (or dominant one) will become more and more dominant and abusive, while the other person will shrink back to avoid trouble. It's not a pretty situation.
please keep the label of shirk out of the picture for now. Well what do I expect from this forum where some people here consider all muslims mushrik except their small group.
I will keep the shirk in the picture. If you fear and obey someone other than God (in my context here, meaning the subservient person in the relationship) then that, indeed, by definition is SHIRK. Can you tell me how it is not????
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Hajirfm,
Let me ask you again
If 6.5 billion people on Earth exist
1.3 of these are Muslim, or claim to be
What about the 5.2 billion remaining? Are they mushrik?