Abandoning prayer...?
-
Peace donya,
Establishing salaat is obligatory upon both mumineen and muslimeen. Looks like you did not go through the thread I referenced for proofs from al-qur'aan.
My original question was regarding those who do not establish regular ritual contact prayers. I agree that turning from remembrance of God means one loses faith, but as you stated yourself, ritual prayer is only one method for remembering God.
I never said anything about any RITUAL PRAYER. Salaat does not mean prayer in the context of aqeemus-salaat. It is much more than just prayer for which the word used in al-qur'aan is "dua". It involves reading and studying al-qur'aan at regular times, being humble and submissive to The God, and remembering, glorifying and praising Him. A better translation would be "connection".
A ritual implies a primarily physical process whereas salaat is primarily a mental process with the physical actions secondary to the mental processes. Thus aqeemus-salaat is both mental and physical, with the mental aspect more important.
All muslims (including mumins) are commanded to establish salaat according to al-qur'aan. Once confronted with that command, if one does not establish salaat as defined above (salaat is not a primarily physical process which the word ritual implies), one cannot be classified as a muslim/submitter according to my understanding.
Having said that, I agree that salaat is only one of the ways to remember The God, and remembrance of The God is one of the most important actions which if not performed will result in severe retribution per 7217.
2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the connection, for the connection prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
But if you are of the opinion that attaining salvation from hell-fire is entirely contingent upon one's performance and punctuality in the regular contact prayers, regardless of the person or their background, then I guess none of these would matter.
No I am not of that opinion. Of course The God will take all deeds into account to pronounce His judgment on the Last Day. According to His weighing system, if the overall score will be positive, then I think one will be forgiven for one's sins out of His mercy, and get rewarded for the good deeds. But this does not mean one can abandon aqeemus-salaat safely.
Also I do not consider salaat in the context of aqeemus-salaat to be "regular contact prayers" as I explained above.
Therefore, my question was more about people who while they do not establish regular contact prayers, still have some sort of relationship with God - still make duaa, still give to the poor out of reverence for and remembrance of God, call on God in times of distress, as well as regularly thank him for their bounty and successes etc. etc.
I agree. In my understanding, The God might forgive such people and not punish them for not establishing salaat out of His mercy, as long as they regularly remember Him, believe in Him and the Last Day, and do good deeds.
-
peace Tanveer, all,
I really think it is best not to imply something is solid when it is not.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0
The above thread proves very little (if anything at all) in terms of evidence to show the regular/timed salat is for the muslimeen as well as the mumineen.
Let's keep 37 in mind when discussing with others. Of course, if you think it is solid that is entirely up to you. We shall agree to disagree.
-
Peace bro Wakas, all,
People can make up their own minds after reading any discussion. After all, there is no compulsion in religion and we will be responsible for our own deeds !
-
Salam.
Dear sisters and brothers please, do not abandon prayers, i pray 3 times every day, sometimes more, never less and everything i ask GOD to give me or allow me, comes true, God gives me even more and sometimes REALLY fast like the very next day or within hours.
Trust me, you want to pray. jedi jedi jedi jedi jedi jedi jedi jedi jedi jedi
hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hailPeace.
-
Thank you for your responses! There is much in here to ponder over.
I also have a question about sura 107, in regards to prayer/salat
Have you considered him who calls the judgment a lie (i.e. rejectors/disbelievers)?
That is the one who treats the orphan with harshness,
And does not urge (others) to feed the poor.
So woe to those who keep salat
Who are unmindful/heedless/neglectful of their salat,
Who do (good) to be seen,
And withhold the necessaries of life.I have often seen people interpret lines 107.4-5 as meaning people who delay the times for salat or perform it "heedlessly" (which they interpret as meaning sluggishly or incorrectly, or delaying a 'prayer' until the time for the next has already begun) are committing a manifest sin and are therefore "unbelievers". Have they even read the entire paragraph?!? To me, this is an example of people taking a verse out of context.
When I read this chapter for the first time, what I got out of it, based on my own reading comprehension skills, was that it's saying that people who pray/perform salat but subsequently do not uphold the spirit of salat, i.e. don't feel a moral responsibility for taking care of those in need, etc., are essentially hypocrites and therefore 'rejectors' of faith.
Does anyone have any opinions on this? I have seen this verse used by some Sunni leaders quite often to scare people into performing contact prayers according to their method, which I feel is contradictory to the spirit of the sura.Thanks
-
Salam.
Why would anyone abandon prayer?
A smart person once told me that considering a fact that The God can and is spinning the Earth on nothing, then a person should really trust God, rely on God, believe in God and have hope. God can do anything, after all, Earth is making rounds without any strings and standing on nothing, no pillars, no green screen and no Special Effects.Peace.
-
Peace Be Upon You Sis Donya and welcome
I believe the salat as done by mainstream muslims is just a form of discipline. The goal of any discipline is to keep your aim on God and keep the connection open and strong so that the soul may develop. When we realize that all things in this world are temporary except God, it becomes apparent that we must detach from the illusion that things, people, situations, jobs etc create of a false sense of fulfillment or happiness. The happiness or fulfillment that is achieved thru all things temporary are short-lived and lead one further into ignorance of his/her separation from God. Therefore the only thing that is stable enough and worthy enough of attachment to would be the Everlasting Source. However, it is extremely easy to become attached to the temporary, hence the need for a discipline. It is a constant struggle that needs to be conquered daily, even minute by minute and only a discipline can achieve that. Salat is only one form of discipline. The practice of tantra is another form of discipline. As long as you have some way to keep your aim on God instead of the temporary, you will achieve the same benefit as is found in salat.
For me personally, salat never really worked for me. I felt amazing when i did it but i couldn't do it consistently enough by any stretch of the term. Where i am on my journey now is to find the discipline that works for me to achieve the goal of a constant attachment with God. It must be practical enough to be able to live life in this world. We must always remember that we are of this world but not from it. So we don't become hermits that do not participate in society but we do not become attached to all that comes with participation in it either. If salat is not working for you, I would suggest you experiment with other forms of disciplines until you find one which will break the monotony of dealing with everyday life to return back to remembrance of the goal of life, which is to surrender your will to the Will of God and to be one with God.
-
If salat is not working for you, I would suggest you experiment with other forms of disciplines until you find one which will break the monotony of dealing with everyday life to return back to remembrance of the goal of life, which is to surrender your will to the Will of God and to be one with God.
Thank you for the welcome ) This question wasn't for me, I do keep salat three times a day and don't plan on abandoning it any time soon, but rather just for the observation that many Muslims who upon moving to the US, abandon it simply because it is too difficult to keep it up in this non-Muslim society, where it is difficult to accommodate Salat at the workplace, where we are often compelled to stay up late to sustain our livelihoods which makes it difficult to wake up at dawn, etc etc.
I do agree with you about timed Salat being a matter of discipline, and it makes sense to say that there are other ways to keep this discipline.
I believe the salat as done by mainstream muslims is just a form of discipline. The goal of any discipline is to keep your aim on God and keep the connection open and strong so that the soul may develop. When we realize that all things in this world are temporary except God, it becomes apparent that we must detach from the illusion that things, people, situations, jobs etc create of a false sense of fulfillment or happiness. The happiness or fulfillment that is achieved thru all things temporary are short-lived and lead one further into ignorance of his/her separation from God. Therefore the only thing that is stable enough and worthy enough of attachment to would be the Everlasting Source. However, it is extremely easy to become attached to the temporary, hence the need for a discipline. It is a constant struggle that needs to be conquered daily, even minute by minute and only a discipline can achieve that. Salat is only one form of discipline. The practice of tantra is another form of discipline. As long as you have some way to keep your aim on God instead of the temporary, you will achieve the same benefit as is found in salat.
While I do agree with you on the essence of your argument, it begs the question - why is it so wrong to find happiness in earthly things, in addition to happiness from a relationship with God? I'm not addressing this to you or anyone else, but rather intend for this to be general commentary. Why can't we have both a relationship with God and a relationship with the earth and this life? We were put here on this earth with a dependence on the things in it, and we cannot survive without other people, situations, jobs, etc., so I think it's unrealistic and even unfair to expect human beings to have no attachment to these things whatsoever. God tells us in the Quran to enjoy the good things he has provided for us and that there is no blame on us for seeking success in the land after we have payed our remembrances to him, so why would our occupation with them, without idolizing or becoming obsessed, be so wrong? And I have to disagree with the statement that happiness or fulfillment that is achieved through all things temporary are short-lived and lead one further into ignorance of his/her separation from God - on the contrary - it is, for example, my relationships with other people, my parents, siblings, friends, that have taught me about love, compassion, mercy, thoughtfulness, and empathy; it has been my experiences in school and the workplace which have lent me experiences in justice, dealing fairly with others, and forgiveness; finally, it is my love of the academics and knowledge which has strengthened my intuition to be inquisitive, to seek answers about the earth, why the good and bad exist in human nature and how we should work to rectify our problems, and it was my 'attachment' to science which brought me closer to religion. From all these things I derive happiness, which I do not regard as superficial, however short-lived they may be. All of these emotions I have learned and qualities I gained from my "attachment" and dependence on "earthly" things bring me CLOSER to God, not the opposite. Without them I would be lost, and would have little insight into the nature of the divine. It is for this reason that I feel it is unrealistic and even unwise to expect human beings to be completely detached from this life and this world. But anyway, I digress ) But I do agree that we need avenues, i.e. salat, to help us remember God in everything we do on this earth and to remind us to keep his covenant, which is the key to living a "perfect" life in this world.
-
Peace Be Upon You Sis Donya
What an excellent progression of thought! I agree with you fully that we must experience and enjoy all things in life. Ascetism or abandoning all people, things situations etc is an unhealthy escape. There is nothing that should stop you from experiencing relationships, the sciences etc. In fact, as I believe you rightfully stated, relationships with others in particular are a wonderful way to know yourself thru others and gauge where you are in your path. It is a way to experience God as you mentioned thru His attributes. It is the attachment to that happiness that one should avoid and not the experience. For example, a person may come into a person's life, open their eyes to new unknown experiences to them and they become attached to that feeling. The person could then change, move away, or even die and the unhealthy attachment to the temporary would lead them to despair, trauma, and depression. Attachment to the temporary, whether it be a good experience or a bad will always lead a person to blockage and the feeling of not being able to let go. When we are unable to move on from any good or bad situation we miss out on all the many other experiences, opportunities and life lessons we have available to us.
A good way to prevent this from happening is to only attach to the Source of all that is Divine Love, Happiness and True Serenity. We experience all that life offers and we transmute the bad experience into good by maintaining a detached stance towards it and thereby being able to extract the golden seed of opportunity to grow from that bad situation. We experience the good in life fully but remain only attached to the One so that when it is gone we understand that is was a temporary experience there for our enjoyment and ready to move on to the next.
This is the only way to remain in a state of peace in life. Attaching to the temporary will not lead to a separation from God but the illusion of separateness. This illusion leads a person to feel depressed, guilty, regretful and not able to forgive himself even though God is Most Forgiving. So by returning back to the One and detaching from the experiences of the world, you enjoy and experience all but remain connected to God. -
Peace Be Upon You Bro Lobster
Very wise words indeed! i agree with you yes
-
Greetings,
I was always wondering since I when was younger about "salat" in chapter 91-12 that how could it be that if they "aqimoussalat" (if it means "prayer" like what I was told since a child) then the situation suddenly changes. (Like some kids of my cousin are fighting/chasing each other then one of them suddenly "acts" as praying ("namaz" to let the other stop the chase rightaway... like a "time-out" call)
I came to read brother Wakas's article at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm seems to be very clear and logical. This understanding goes quite well with the chapter 107 mentioned above, very well explained in brother Wakas's link above - very interesting note to read 1187.
The "So", to me, really shows there's a link
1071 Have you seen him who is denying the system?
1072 It is the one who mistreats the orphan,
1073 And does not encourage the feeding of the poor.As you might have seen in many other verses about treting the orphans well, feeding the poor, but these people don't do that - except to
be seen -> They only do it to be seen -> To me, this is why and cleary links to the follwing verses1074 So woe to those who connect,
1075 But of their connection they are heedless.
1076 They only want to be seen,
1077 And they withhold from far-reaching deeds.They to the connection - like feeding the poor, etc., just to be seen. This seems more relative to the context or the "spirit" of the chapter than just something about prayer ("namaz" pops up in the middle even though there's a "So" to link it.
Surely, don't abandon the "salat" that you do to remember God.
2014 "I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the connection for My remembrance."
Therefore, the commandments are to be done to remember God. That's why if one does the connection heedlessly or just to be seen (or to complete the number of rakat's?) then it's possibly not completing the objective.
For example, you see many so-called "muslims" do the prayer/namaz then they tell lies in their business/life or they do various transgression - that namaz thing probably didn't complete the salat's objective. On the other hand, if one remembers that3370 O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth.
And he does not tell lies, it's probably starting to complete the objective of rememberance, at least in this aspect right?
Now, there's so many commandments and guidelines including glorifying him at various times - to remember God. Therefore, I see "salat" as much a complete "connection" with God than what the contemporary "prayer" or "namaz" seems to mean.
Therefore, surely, don't abandon the salat. )
This is just what I came to think. I could be right or wrong - God please guide & forgive.
May God Guide.
-
Peace brother Wakas,
I'm a big fan of independent thinking leading to convergence... it always gives me a warm glow inside.
) I'm very happy to hear that! Yes, me too!
Thanks very very much for writing and sharing your articles, they proved very helpful and eye-opeing. )
Praise be to God!
May God Guide. -
I think there are some earthly pleasure that are temporary and short-lived like well, sex, too much drugs, too much alcoholic drinks, money, power, fame, should be avoided. You know, the things that are the easiest to be liked a lot, that put you in a state of "HAHAHA OH WOW", that may hurt you physically and mentaly (well someone not strong mentaly will start to drink to forget, but this will bring even more problemes because driking will just have made the probleme last longer). So anything bad for health, brain, self, has to be avoided or forbidden according to what God says in the Quran.
