Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Agent XXX
peace Rajah,
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Rajah- If you have any credible proof, then present it and the discussion might have ended long ago,You haven?t answered most of my Questions from the previous post and have yet to present any evidence from Quran to prove Ibrahim and Ismail were in Mecca. But instead you keep on asking others for credible evidence?.what about your credible answers buddy?
Can you show from the Quran where Ishmael settled?
Can you produce one single verse from the Quran stating that he settled in Mecca?
Can you even find a single verse where Becca/puran is said to be an alternate name for Mecca?
In what direction was the original Qiblah pointing?
What is the location of the sacred mosque i.e. masjid al-haram?
If you claim that it is Mecca, can you produce a single verse stating that the sacred mosque is located there?Instead of providing any proof/evidence that goes in your favor You again started asking me questions? ignoring all the Historical evidences I provided.
I don't think so any reasonable question of yours has been un answered, i even answered your funny ones for example Isaac using mobile phone and Mount Paran being in Kharian, with evidences provided by some well known researchers.I have also mentioned Quranic verses in support but if one wants not to read or listen?
But let me summarize it for you and for all of us, before i do remember the basic of debate is "One who presents defends" meaning to say you have to provide the evidence and not me or the opposing party.Can you show from the Quran where Ishmael settled?
YeS! but will you believe then? or like Jews will start asking what should be the color of calf, how old shoud be it or how many hair should it have?
Al-Quran
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.this is supported by the Verse I quoted from Bible
2121 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
"Paran = 'two who migrated'"
Where is Paran located??
Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat Mountains". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains.
Going on further from Bible
Now this verse of (Isaiah 60),
607 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.Is surely of before Muhammad, and in it Allah tells us clearly about his house and invites for piligrimage, the key word there being with regards to our discussion "Kedar"
What are or is Kedar?
The Arabs are called Kedar?s or Kedarites (Genesis 2513-16 and see Illustrated Dictionary & Concordance of the Bible- G.G. The Jersulem Publishing House Ltd 1986 pages 478 and 589).
This further confirms that the House of Allah existed even before Muhammad and Jesus in the Arab and all the historical evidences lead us to "Paran" MAKKAH" "BAKKAH" located in present day Saudi.
Tanveer replied for the above
After Muhammad's death, the arab pagan hypocrites renamed their pagan temple Kaaba after the common noun "kaaba"/heel/base in al-qur'aan and renamed the insignificant town containing this pagan temple Mecca after the common noun "makka(t)"/destruction/wearing down in al-qur'aan so that they can resume their pagan practices while pretending to be following al-qur'aan.
First of all if i follow your flawed logic I will ask is this written in Quran? this is babyish! My question is where did he got this evidence from, and when did Muhammad travelled to Palestine for Hajj or Why did no one from that time pointed out this biggest blunder. For the Meccans it was OK but what about the other tribes and areas of Arab, were they not Jealous? why they not pointed out anything of kind? It is fact that this is the one of the biggest lie carved in the name of Islam by Muslims themselves in this century. In this paragraph it tells us that Meccans were trying to pretend while following Quran they were actually practicing Pagan practices. So who were they afraid of? why they were pretending? if they were afraid of some one, why that some one did not pointed out since then? Offcourse Arabs are nationalists and they discriminate other nations often, but that is against the teachings of ISlam and Allah choosing the Arab for his house should not be crticized for that.
As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed) "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy, and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.Is this Prayer of Abraham and Ismail still unanswered??
If these prayers are been answered then KAABA in MECCA is the Place and Surely Abraham and ISmail have built it.TAnveer's Translation
2127 And as Ibraheem raised the foundations FROM/MIN the house with Ismaeel "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
Ok even if we take your translation still the question remains the same, combining it with second verse
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy, and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful
Further Quran tells us that the
Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations.
Indeed, in Arabic and Hebrew, the word becca/baca also means ?the mastic or the balsam tree.? Another meaning of the word is ?the overflowing tears.? These two meanings fit the description of Mecca as well. Mecca is a place where these evergreen trees are found in abundance (the Meccan balsam is a well known name in pharmacopeia). Furthermore, the commemoration of God?s Name - and God alone - during hajj, truly brings tears to many a pilgrim?s eyes.
Qur?an lays stress on the religion of Ibrahim, presenting Islam as a return to the purity of the religion of Ibrahim which, obscured by Judaism and Christianity, shone forth in its original brightness in the Qur?an. The pilgrimage?s to the Ka?aba and ritual progressions around the building were continued after Muhammad cleaned it from idols but now for the glorification of One God. The Abrahimic vision of the Ka?aba created a means of discerning an orthodox origin buried in the midst of pagan malpractices to which the first muslims pointed the way.
Quran
Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.Those who received the scripture, and know it as it should be known, will believe in this. As for those who disbelieve, they are the losers.
We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point/model for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
It says that Abraham and Ismail were ordered by Allah to purify this house and not to built for the first time but may be rebuilt or rennovate, meaning that this house existed before them.
So my understanding is that this building existed before Abraham and Ismail and they only purified it by removing idols etc.
But regarding the question is this the same building which is in Mecca, YES as the Quran clearly tells us
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
Allah appointed Abraham to establish the shrine on basis that we should not idolize any other god besides Allah and not on the basis it existed before.
Another translation
And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves.Prophecy
And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.Hajj shall be observed in the specified months. Whoever sets out to observe Hajj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout Hajj. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence.
Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?
You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and
Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) betweenUmrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retributionWhere else do people stop cutting their hairs until sacrifice of the animal is done? Where else do people during HAjj offer Kafara in the shape of Fasting during HAjj??
You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord (through commerce). When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate GOD at the Sacred Location (of Muzdalifah). You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.
Where else do in the world we see trading during Hajj season, and the place Arafat?
If all these things mentioned in Quran combined happen some where else other then Mecca, Then is the case of those who impressed by Jewish and Christian missionaries propoganda say that Kaaba is not the place Abraham was assigned to purify.
THIS HAPPENS ONLY IN ARABIA! no matter how bitter it tastes to brother Tanveer or Ayman or any.
Further proof for Abraham and ISmail rebuilding KAaba
A line in the Book of Jubilees (2013) mentions that the descendants of Abraham's son by Hagar, Ishmael, as well as his descendants by Keturah, became the "Arabians" or "Arabs". The 1st century Jewish historian Josephus similarly described the descendants of Ishmael (i.e. the Ishmaelites) as an "Arabian" people. He also calls Ishmael the "founder" (ς of the "Arabians". Some Biblical scholars also believe that the area outlined in Genesis as the final destination of Ishmael and his descendants ("from Havilah to Assyria" refers to the Arabian peninsula. This has led to a commonplace view that modern Semitic-speaking Arabs are descended from Abraham via Ishmael, in addition to various other tribes who intermixed with the Ishmaelites, such as Joktan, Sheba, Dedan, Broham, etc. Both Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions speak of earlier inhabitants of Arabia.
Meccans who were known for memorizing and repeating the family tree and praising renknown members of the family tree have provided us with the tree which leads from Muhammad to Ismail.
Regarding black stone etc. I have posted before.
By posting these pictures you have further confirmed that the prayers of ABRAHAM and Muhammad Have been answered and People from all over the world from the farthest places visit this House of Allah by using all means of Transposrt, While the House which is trying to be built by Ayman and followers is yet to be discovered and waiting for people who can visit them. Thanks for your posting of pictures
Allah Ho Akbar.
Next time I hope whenever you post, I doubt if you will, please post some proof for House of Allah that Ayman is trying to built with help of Tanveer and AgentXXX.
Salaam.
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Did Ibrahim Migrate to Mecca?
According to quran Ibrahim and Lut migrated to a blessed place
2171
According to quran we know that later Lut left Ibrahim and migrated to an other place......but I couldn't find any evidence from quran which shows that Ibrahim also left that blessed place and migrated somewhere else.
Children of Israel also migrated to a blessed place
7137
Solomon as well
2181
3418
Is that blessed place Palestine? Ibrahim should have built Ka'aba to that blessed place where he migrated, if we believe for instance that he left that blessed place and migrated to mecca so according to quran he should remain in mecca and should have not left that place, but we are told that Ibrahim left mecca and went back to the blessed place......Why I am saying Ibrahim shouldn't left mecca because of the following verse
2226 <------ God is asking Ibrahim to keep His house clean, but why he left the mecca and ignored the God's commandment? God forbid...
2227 <------ God is asking Ibrahim to proclaim unto alnnasi bialhajji. They will come unto you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every deep ravine....
OK, God is commanding Ibrahim what to do next and Ibrahim left that place and went back?
Salam o rahmah
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Peace Sis Samia,
Faran = Paran = Arabia...I do not take comfort in numbers, or spinned interpretations of The Quran via Hadith, and Scholars...
The only way my heart will be convinced either way is if the Saudis will allow forensic studies conducted in the sites and a history time line map be produced from the findings.
Are the Saudis better than other nations who wish to study their past objectively?...
What are they scared of that will be found?
We could even find out the age of The Prophet using carbon dating and more precise times as to the events that took place in Madinah, and supposedly earlier in Makka...
Since they want to destroy tombs that they fear will be taken as pagan shrines, why not let Scientists at least take samples to analyse?
But of course who cares? The status quo satisfies the Saudis very well... And who gives a toss about the Muslims to fund scientific research in Makka, Madinah and other Arabian places... Most non-Muslims look at the Muslims as a nuisance community who they have to contend with because of the rich resources in the countries they inhabit, they also look at us as backward, stuck in the dark ages, unable of scientific progress, and a fodder for extremism.
Plus we are unable to defend ourselves and we keep fighting (Shia / Sunni divides etc)...
So lets keep on spinning around the cube and forget about the world, after all we seem to think that we were only sent to look after our own, and how caring we so very are... -
Peace brother Hamsa,
Is that blessed place Palestine? Ibrahim should have built Ka'aba to that blessed place where he migrated, if we believe for instance that he left that blessed place and migrated to mecca so according to quran he should remain in mecca and should have not left that place, but we are told that Ibrahim left mecca and went back to the blessed place......Why I am saying Ibrahim shouldn't left mecca because of the following verse
The whole earth is blessed. See 4110.
Peace,
Ayman
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Thanks brother Ayman,
peace
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Nabster
The only way my heart will be convinced either way is if the Saudis will allow forensic studies conducted in the sites and a history time line map be produced from the findings
Quite rational; but in present circumstances it doesnot seem possible.
Samia
Folowing are some refrences
The Lebanese Christian, Kamal Salibi, places Paran in close proximity to
Makkah. On page 215 of his book ?The Bible Came from Arabia? he says ".. the
place in question could have been Faran, in the Zahran highlands, bordering on
the basaltic desert of Harrat Al-Buqum. In any case, this Faran was no doubt
the Biblical Paran"Yaqut al-Hamawi, Mu'jam al-Buldan, Vol. III, p.834
Syed Ahmed Khan in his book refuting the claims of Muir and so which are followed by ayman and others writes
He drew attention to the fact that the early Muslim geographers speak of three different places bearing the same name of Paran, namely, first, the wilderness where Makka now stands, together with the mountainous region adjacent to it; secondly, those mountains and a village that are situated in Eastern Egypt or Arabia Petra and; thirdly, a district in Samarkand.26 He further pointed out that the Christian scholars and exegetes advance three different identifications of Paran. One view is that it comprised a vast area extending 'from the northern boundary of Beer-Sheba as far as Mount Sinai'; the second view is that it was identical with Beersheba, which was also called Kadesh; and the third view is that it was the wilderness lying on the "western slopes of Mount Sinai.27
As regards these identifications the first two are obviously wrong, because the descriptions of the Old Testament itself clearly show Paran to be a distinct and different area, not a vast wilderness including many others such as the first identification would suggest, and also different from Beer-Sheba/Kadesh.28 The third identification, that of Paran being a locality on the western slopes of Mount Sinai, tallies with one of the Paran mentioned by the Muslim geographers, but the locality was in all likelihood not known by the name of Paran at that time. For Moses, in the course of his journey with the Israelites from Egypt to Sinai, does not make any mention of Paran although he passed through the same locality and mentioned the places on the way. Most probably the place came to be known as Paran at a period subsequent to that of Moses on account of the settlement there of a branch of Banu Pharan, a Qahtanite tribe.29
None of these three localities, however, could have been the domicile of Hajar and Isma'il. For, in the first place, no local traditions exist to the effect that they settled in any of those localities. Secondly, though Moses and his followers are stated to have proceeded further from Sinai and having passed through "Taberah", "Kibrothhattaavah" and "Hazeroth" next halted at the wilderness of Paran30 the exact course taken by them is not clear. The Christian scholars themselves suggest as many as five different directions. Moreover, their statement that the descendants of Isma'il spread over the area "from 'Shur to Havilah', or across the Arabian peninsula, from the borders of Egypt to the mouths of the Euphrates" is based on an incorrect identification of "Havilah" mentioned in Gen. 2518. They, guessing on a slender similarity in sound, identify Havilah with Aval or Auwal of the Bahrayn islands. In reality, as Syed Ahmed points out, Havilah is a locality in the vicinity of Yaman, lying at Lat. 17 degrees 30 N and Long. 42 degrees 36, E, and called after Havilah, one of the sons of Joktan (Qahtan)31. It is thus evident "that the Ishmaelites settled in the wide tract of land extending from the northern frontiers of Yemen to the southern borders of Syria. This place now bears the name of Hedjaz, and it is identical with Paran", as mentioned by the Muslim geographers.32 It is further noteworthy that an Arabic version of the Samaritan Pentateuch edited by R. Kuenen and published at Lugduni Batavorum, 1851, says in a note that Pharan and Hejaz are one and the same place
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Salaam all
Yaqut al-Hamawi, Mu'jam al-Buldan, Vol. III, p.834
This page speaks about "Alraqeem" as the place of The People of The Cave (off point). Could be differences in issues.
In his Dictionary of Places, Y. Al Hamawy does not refer to "Faran" when mentioning makkah, but under the entry "Faran" he mentions that "it is alleged that it is makkah", which shows that he knows nothing about this allegation.
He attributes the name of "faran" to places from Syria north to Yemen south, as well as as as far east as asia.
As for what kamal salibi says, I just take it as his own opinion. Where is Dharan from Makkah?
The name of "Badiat al teeh Deasert of bewilderness" in Sinai is more reasonable than harrat al bugum (what does it mean BTW?).
Faran does not mean (the two who migrated) as you mentioned. More is ( two who are on the run). But if we take it as colloquial arabic , it should be "farain"; if we take classical arabic, this is not the dual of this verb, in fact this pattern taken from the verb has neither dual nor plural. I do not think it is an Arabic word. It is not even a proper name inasmuch as "Sahara" is.
The Easton Bible mentions it as a hebrew word, meaning abound in foilage and in caverns. This will be more plausible to accommodate the many places having the name ""faran", just like the word "Sahara", derived from Arabic Sahraa' desert. It is, therefore, a chain of rough land (mountainous) with many caves and trees.
In conclusion, "faran" can not mean "makkah" nor can it mean just the mountains of makkah, since this is a chain of mountains running along the red sea from Yemen to syria (now Jordan).
As for the word "kedarites", it refers to kedar, the second son of Ismael. They are arab bedouins, nomads, but it is erroneous to say that Arabs are called kedarites. Ismael had 12 sons according to the OT. All their descendants, or most of them, were bedouin arabs. Arabs does not necessarily mean inhabitants of SA. They firstly inhabited Sinai, syria and moved eastwards towards iraq and persia before coming west/ south to the arab peninsula.
In summary, faran or kedarites gives no more proves to what we are discussing here, nor does it give real old history to makkah.
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Salaam
11 44
Wa qila ya_ ardu_bla'i ma_'aki wa ya_ sama_'u aqli'i wa gidal ma_'u wa qudiyal amru wa-stawat 'alal ju_diyyi wa qila bu'dal lil qaumiz za_limin(a).
When the word went forth "O earth! swallow up thy water and O sky! withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Judi and the word went forth "Away with those who do wrong!"
Can the verses be referring to Judea/Yhuda the historic land of Palestine and Israel?
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Samia
In summary, faran or kedarites gives no more proves to what we are discussing here, nor does it give real old history to makkah
Very funny indeed! I will not comment on this staTEMENT of yours.
But Just to make the record start
Writing only 36 years ago a best selling historian wrote that "Owing to a lack of documented writings before the Romans developed the papyrus plant in Egypt, early Arab history was largely confined to legends, proverbs and poems which were handed down by word of mouth and not committed to paper for hundreds of years after the events to which they referred" (Anthony Nutting, The Arabs A Narrative History from Mohammed to the Present, New York Mentor 1965, p.14).
This clearly indicates that what we have on both sides is not from any 100% authentic source, so your issuing of following fatwa
samia
In conclusion, "faran" can not mean "makkah"
is just absurd, Specially after I have posted some valuable researhers comments and Ayats from Bible and Quran.
Robert Brow in his excellent work writes;
ISHMAEL THE ARAB 1866-1729 BC by Robert Brow
Using dozens of texts from the first book of the Jewish Bible we have pictured Ishmael as the ancestor of the Arabs. Genesis was written in its present form at least a thousand years before Egypt became a Roman province. And it certainly does not look like a book of legends.
Whereas the Jewish descendants of Isaac tended to be exclusive and closely tied to the land of Canaan,
He further writes
Ishmael died in 1729 B.C. (This date could be moved 200 years up or down according to the historical framework we decide to use). From that date fourteen centuries went by before the Greek and Roman empires came on the scene. We will now document during those centuries the constant contacts between the Jewish children of Isaac and the Arab children of Ishmael. After the death of Ishmael (1866-1729) the Old Testament focuses on the history of the Jewish people descended from Abraham's grandson Jacob. But the numerous texts that refer to tribes related to Ishmael prove that the Israelites were in constant contact with their Arab neighbors.30 years after the death of Ishmael Esau came to meet Jacob as he returned from serving Laban among the Arameans of Haran. He came with 400 men from the area of Seir. Evidently by then this Edomite tribe was powerful enough to field an army of 400 men. (Genesis 326, 331) There was a reconciliation between the two brothers (Genesis 334), and then Esau returned to his tribal area south of the Dead Sea (see Genesis 366-..
Another thirty years later Isaac (1852-1672) died, and both brothers Esau and Jacob were there to bury him in the cave of Macpelah, where Sarah and Abraham were buried in the town now called Hebron (Genesis 2319, 257-10, 3528-29). This shows that 60 years after the death of Ishmael there were peaceful and brotherly contacts between the Arab and Jewish cousins.
Further expalining that ISmail was settled in Arab he writes
A sister of the Jewish King David was Abigail and she was married to Jether the Ishmaelite (1 Chronicles 213-17). And after King David had handed over the regency to Solomon (1 Chronicles 231), one of David's servants was Obil the Ishmaelite, who was in charge of the camels (1 Chronicles 2730). Obviously the Ishmaelites of the desert were viewed as the most qualified to be in charge of the royal camels, but the text also points to the fact of contacts and even intermarriage between Israelites and Arabs.
One of the psalms speaks of plans to destroy Israel by a grouping of Arab tribes including Edomites, Ishmaelites, Moabites, Ammonites, and Amalekites (Psalm 833-7).
The prophet Ezekiel prophesied just before the fall of Jerusalem in 587. He wrote a lament over the imminent destruction of the Phoenician city of Tyre. He lists five Arab tribes who had traded with that city on the Mediterranean. "Dedan (descended from Keturah, Genesis 253) traded with you in saddlecloths for riding. Arabia and all the princes of Kedar (Ishmael's sons, Genesis 2513) were your favored dealers in lambs, rams, and goats; in these they did business with you. The merchants of Sheba (present day Yemen, see 1 Kings 101-2) and Raamah (also in the Yemen) traded with you; they exchanged for your wares the best of all kinds of spices, and all precious stones and gold." (Ezekiel 2720-22).
It is only in the last book of the Jewish prophets that the descendants of Esau are viewed as under God's final judgment (Malachi 12-5, but see Jeremiah 497-22, Lamentations 422, Ezekiel 2512-13, Joel 319, Amos 111-12, 21-3, ). But we should put alongside this the equally severe judgments on Israel (in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos 24-. We also note Jesus' prophecy that the Jewish religious establishment of Jerusalem would be ended in that generation, as happened in AD 70 (Matthew 2336, 241-9). But when Paul the Jewish rabbi spoke of God's severe judgment on his own people, he also predicts their eventual restoration (Romans 1012, 24,-25). In their history Israel and the Arabs have both experienced times of terrible judgment, but from God's point of view that is never the end of the story.
Finally we go on another hundred years to the time when Ezra and Nehemiah were restoring Jerusalem after the exile. A group of Arab tribes are mentioned as opposing the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem. They were led by "Samballat the Horonite, Tobiah the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arab" (Nehemiah 219, 47, 61, see 1323). This is further evidence to prove that throughout the Jewish Bible and fourteen centuries after the death of Ishmael the original grouping of Arab tribes was still known among the Jewish people.
HeAbraham) was totally opposed to idolatry. As we have seen, there were Arab tribes such as the Ammonites and Moabites, who fell into the hands of priests who taught them pagan idolatrous practices. This had occured in Mecca before Muhammad was able to cleanse the Kaaba from idols and heathen images on its walls. But most of his work was restoring the genuine faith of Abraham and Ishmael among the Arab people. And politically he was able to reunite the many feuding Arab tribes and form them into one brotherhood. That is the vision we have suggested goes back to Ishmael the founder of the Arab people.
What remains for Arabs, Jews, and Christians as we enter the next millenium is to fulfill the third part of the original promise to Abraham. God is interested in each nation having a land, and each nation prospering and multiplying, but the real concern of His heart is that all nations should be blessed by the faith of Abraham (Genesis 121-3).
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Oh, do Christians and Jews say that Jerusalem is the focal point? If so, 2145 means that Jerusalem cannot be so.
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Peace Rajah,
Rajah-Instead of providing any proof/evidence that goes in your favor You again started asking me questions? ignoring all the Historical evidences I provided.
Historical Evidences? Ambiguous verses are not historical evidences bro, they are interpretations based on assumptions.
Rajah-I don't think so any reasonable question of yours has been un answered,
Can you show from the Quran where Ishmael settled?
Can you produce one single verse from the Quran stating that he settled in Mecca?
Can you even find a single verse where Becca/puran is said to be an alternate name for Mecca?
In what direction was the original Qiblah pointing?
What is the location of the sacred mosque i.e. masjid al-haram?
If you claim that it is Mecca, can you produce a single verse stating that the sacred mosque is located there?
What was so special about Mecca? Why ibrahim/hagar/Ismail avoided medina an oasis and went all the way to a place hot humid place with no agriculture and sparse water?
Why did Ibrahim banished his son so far away?
Did Ibrahim/Ismail came to Mecca before the birth of ishaq or after?You didn?t answer any of these questions so I can assume that according to you, all these questions fall into the category of ?unreasonable questions?
Rajah-i even answered your funny ones for example Isaac using mobile phone and Mount Paran being in Kharian, with evidences provided by some well known researchers.
The mobile reference was not funny, it was rational reference to know how otherwise ishaq could have communicated with Ismail who was living 1000 km from him?..you avoided answering it by simply calling it ?funny question?.
Another example
SamiaIn summary, faran or kedarites gives no more proves to what we are discussing here, nor does it give real old history to makkah
RajahVery funny indeed! I will not comment on this staTEMENT of yours.
Mount puran in kharian was meant to be funny as a response to your funny interpretation of mount paran in Mecca???if ?mount paran in kharian? can be funny for you then why cant ?mount paran in Mecca? can be funny for someone else???..when both these interpretations are based on assumption.
Rajah-Can you show from the Quran where Ishmael settled?
No?and this is the very reason why I am skeptical.
Rajah-2121 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
"Paran = 'two who migrated'"Where is Paran located??
Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat Mountains". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains.
Hagar was an Egyptian and she took a wife for Ismail FROM THE LAND OF EYGPT?this itself is a proof that they were not living far away from Egypt.
It would have been natural for hagar to move toward a land and people she was familiar with, rather then going 1000 km away to an unknown territory.
Paran = "place of caverns"
- wilderness area bounded on the north by Palestine, on the west by the wilderness of Etham, on the south by the desert of Sinai, and on the east by the valley of Arabah; the exodus was through this area and probably all 18 stops were in this area
The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon describes Paran as "a wilderness area bounded on the north by Palestine, on the west by the wilderness of Etham, on the south by the desert of Sinai, and on the east by the valley of Arabah; the exodus was through this area and probably all 18 stops were in this area."
The Sarawat range of mountains STRETCHES FROM JORDAN ALL THE WAY DOWN TO YEMEN along the east coast and on the Red Sea.
http//members.virtualtourist.com/m/5e6d6/http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/sarawatmountain.jpg
The SARAWAT MOUNTAIN CHAIN PARALLELS THE RED SEA and exploring the wonderful escarpment and foothills is always a fascinating, rewarding and exhilarating experience.
The SARAWAT MOUNTAINS form a ridge of high land extending some 2,000 KILOMETERS along the western boundary of the Arabian Peninsula.http//pr.sv.net/aw/2007/May%202007/english/pages026.htm
Rajah-What are or is Kedar?
The Arabs are called Kedar?s or Kedarites (Genesis 2513-16 and see Illustrated Dictionary & Concordance of the Bible- G.G. The Jersulem Publishing House Ltd 1986 pages 478 and 589).
I am not challenging the genealogy of Arabs here ??..being the descendents of Ibrahim/ismail doesn?t prove that Mecca was built by ibrahim/Ismail.
The mogul emperors of India were the descendants of Genghis Khan and Tamerlane but it doesn?t mean that the red fort of Delhi or Lahore fort was built by Genghis Khan or Tamerlane.
Kaaba may have been built by the descendants of Ibrahim, but there is no clear evidence that it was built by Ibrahim ?. Only ambiguous verses/giving new meaning to ancient names of places and the genealogy of the Arabs is presented as a proof.
And why is it necessary to trace the ancestry of Mohammad to Ibrahim?
It was Mohammed?s message and not his genealogy, for which he is revered,
Otherwise abu lahab and yazid were also the decedents of Ibrahim.Rajah-Meccans who were known for memorizing and repeating the family tree and praising renknown members of the family tree have provided us with the tree which leads from Muhammad to Ismail.
Not only from Mohammad to Ismail but also from Mohammad to Adam.
Descent from Ishmael
Muhammad is considered to be one of the many descendants of Ishmael. The oldest extant biography of Muhammad, compiled by Mohammed Ibn Ishak, and edited by Abu Mohammed Abd el Malik Ibn Hisham.MUHAMMAD was
the son of ABD ALLAH,
son of ABD-UL-MUTTALIB,
son of HASHIM,
son of Abdu Manaf,
son of Qusay,
son of Kilab,
son of Hakeem,
son of Kaab,
son of Luayy,
son of Ghalib,
son of Fihr,
son of Malik,
son of Qays,
son of Kinanah,
son of Khuzaymah,
son of Mudrikah,
son of Ilyas,
son of Mudhar,
son of Nizar,
son of Maad,
son of Adnan,
son of Udd,
son of Muqawwam,
son of Nakhour,
son of Tahir,
son of Yarub,
son of Yashyub,
son of Nabit,
son of Ismail (ishmael), 29
son of IBRAHIM the Friend of God,
son of Tarikh
son of Nakhour
son of Sarukh,
son of Rau,
son of Falih
son of Hud,
son of Salih,
son of Arphakhshad,
son of Sham,
son of Nuh,
son of Lamekh,
son of Matushalakh,
son of Akhanukh, ?who, as is believed, was the prophet Idris.?
son of Aded,
son of Mahlaleel,
son of Kaynan,
son of Anoush,
son of Shays,
son of Adam,
ADAM.They may have been good in memorizing and repeating the family tree ???..but they were definitely not good at remembering the massage of their ancestor IBRAHIM, and in only 30 generation they changed from worshiping ?Allah alone? to worshiping ?365 idols?.
and why cant these idol worshipers lie about the origin of mecca....which was their only source of economy?According to ibn Ishak there is a gap of only 50 generations between Adam and Mohammad confused
is this the type of historical evidence you support bro?
rajah-Next time I hope whenever you post, I doubt if you will, please post some proof for House of Allah that Ayman is trying to built with help of Tanveer and AgentXXX.
wow! its an honor for me to be associated with bro ayman and bro tanveer so thank you bro Rajah )
peace
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Samia
Very funny indeed! I will not comment on this staTEMENT of yours.
But Just to make the record start
Writing only 36 years ago a best selling historian wrote that "Owing to a lack of documented writings before the Romans developed the papyrus plant in Egypt, early Arab history was largely confined to legends, proverbs and poems which were handed down by word of mouth and not committed to paper for hundreds of years after the events to which they referred" (Anthony Nutting, The Arabs A Narrative History from Mohammed to the Present, New York Mentor 1965, p.14).
The funny is this statement by this historian. How about the history of ancient civilization of Egypt? Did it come by word of mouth, or would a civilization say paper is not invented yet, let's transmit our civilization verbally for now? Why is the "Arab" civilization the only civilization not to be recorded in any form? Did the Romans develop papyrus plant in Egypt? When did they do that? After Islam? Unless he is talking about Arab civilization centuries before the birth of Moses...
is just absurd, Specially after I have posted some valuable researhers comments and Ayats from Bible and Quran.
Robert Brow in his excellent work writes;
ISHMAEL THE ARAB 1866-1729 BC by Robert Brow
Using dozens of texts from the first book of the Jewish Bible we have pictured Ishmael as the ancestor of the Arabs. Genesis was written in its present form at least a thousand years before Egypt became a Roman province. And it certainly does not look like a book of legends.
Whereas the Jewish descendants of Isaac tended to be exclusive and closely tied to the land of Canaan,
I did not contest the origin, or existence of Arabs...how come and the qur'aan mentioned them in many verses (very negatively, I should add). I corrected the meaning of Kedarites, and also contested the meaning of Arabs to be restricted to those in the Arab peninsula..
As for the word "kedarites", it refers to kedar, the second son of Ismael. They are Arab Bedouins, nomads, but it is erroneous to say that Arabs are called kedarites. Ismael had 12 sons according to the OT. All their descendants, or most of them, were Bedouin Arabs. Arabs does not necessarily mean inhabitants of SA. They firstly inhabited Sinai, Syria and moved eastwards towards Iraq and Persia before coming west/ south to the Arab peninsula.
You quoted Yaqut al-Hamay, and I showed that his account for faran is not to be taken as evidence, because he himself did not seem to know that faran=makkah.
You gave an Arabic meaning for "Paran", I contested the Arabic meaning, and quoted a meaning in a biblical dictionary
From all this infomation, plus the fact that neither the qur'aan, nor the hadith, nor tafseer books have mentioned faran as another name for makkah, I came to this conclusion.
According to your understanding (or at least the general traditional understanding), the qur'aan referred to makkah in other names and titles becca, ummul qura; albaladul amin; albalad almubarak, alarDhul muqaddasa...but never as faran, although Paran is mentioned in previous scripts...why? What qur'aanic evidence did you bring to support that?
The name faran as another name for makkah only emerged to contest the verse you quoted from the OT. This is very clear from just googling "faran" in Arabic, and you will find it ONLY in forums contesting, like you, that makkah is mentioned in the OT. To tell the truth, I have never heard of faran=mecca before...I went to normal schools where we were taught hadith, sira and qur'aan for 12 years before University, but was never taught this name (I knew of the other names I cited, though). . I even went as far as asking many Sudanese here in the UK and abroad (all traditionalists), and not a single one knew of this name. I wonder if other in this forum knew of this other name before....or perhaps Syed Ahmed Khan was the first to bring up an old argument that did not survive well?
Conclusion No evidence whatsoever that makkah=faran/Paran
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peace all,
Samia-Conclusion No evidence whatsoever that makkah=faran/Paran
HAGAR/ISMAIL AND THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN
And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. Gen 215
And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, all that hear will laugh with me. Gen 216
And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born a son in his old age. Gen 217
And the child grew, and was weaned and Abraham made a great feast the day that Isaac was weaned. Gen 218
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Gen 219
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, with Isaac. Gen 2110
And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. Gen 2111
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. Gen 2112
And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he thy seed. Gen 2113
And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave unto Hagar, putting on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of BEERSHEBA. Gen 2114
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. Gen 2115
And she went, and sat her down over against a good way off, as it were a bowshot for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against , and lift up her voice, and wept. Gen 2116
And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he . Gen 2117
Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.Gen 2118
And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. Gen 2119
And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. Gen 2120
And he dwelt in THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. Gen 2121.
**Hagar and Ismail left with some bread and a bottle of water, Ibrahim was living in beersheba so when Hagar and Ismail were banished, they first started wandering in the wilderness of beersheba before finally settling in the wilderness of paran.
In my opinion it is impossible for them to make it to Mecca almost a 1000 km away, with only one bottle of water and some bread, so the wilderness of paran was definitely a place some where near to the place they were banished from and paran cannot be Mecca as claimed by bro rajah.peace
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peace all,
DAVID AND THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN
And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN. 1Sa 251MOSES AND THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN
And this the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. Deu 331
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from MOUNT PARAN, and he came with ten thousands of saints from his right hand a fiery law for them. Deu 332
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints in thy hand and they sat down at thy feet; shall receive of thy words. Deu 333
And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee. Num 1213
And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in . Num 1214
And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in . Num 1215
And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN. Num 1216
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Num 131
Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them. Num 132
And MOSES by the commandment of the LORD sent them from THE WILDERNESS OF PARAN all those men heads of the children of Israel. Num 133
And these their names of the tribe of Reuben, Shammua the son of Zaccur. Num 134
And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land. Num 1326
Of the tribe of Simeon, Shaphat the son of Hori. Num 135
Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. Num 136
These the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red , between PARAN, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. Deu 11
**According to these verses David/Moses/Aaron all have been in the wilderness of Paran ....if Paran is Mecca then surely they would have seen "kaaba" too which was built by their ancestor Ibrahim, but there is no mentioning of kaaba ? also if paran is Mecca then why these verses say no Warner came to them before Mohammad?
AL-QASAS (THE STORY, STORIES)
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.- And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, THEN THEY SHOULD SAY Our Lord! WHY DIDST THOU NOT SEND TO US A MESSENGER SO THAT WE SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THY COMMUNICATIONS and been of the believers !
AS-SAJDA (THE PROSTRATION,WORSHIP, ADORATION)
Alif Lam Mim. 32 1.
The revelation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, is from the Lord of the worlds. 32 2.
Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER HAS COME BEFORE YOU, that THEY MAY FOLLOW THE RIGHT DIRECTION. 32 3.YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN)
Ya Seen. 36 1.
I swear by the Quran full of wisdom 36 2.
Most surely you are one of the messengers 36 3.
On a right way. 36 4
A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. 36 5.
THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE WHOSE FATHERS WERE NOT WARNED, so they are heedless. 36 6.**Conclusion paran is not Mecca and according to the above verses of bible, the location of the wilderness of Paran in the following map seems to be logically correct.
http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/wildernessofparan-1.jpg
And they arose out of Midian, and came to PARAN and they took men with them out of PARAN, and they came to Egypt, unto Pharaoh king of Egypt; which gave him an house, and appointed him victuals, and gave him land. 1Ki 1118
**they arose from midian....came to paran.....took their men out of paran and went to Egypt.
please ponder on the map and the above versepeace
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SAMIA
You gave an Arabic meaning for "Paran", I contested the Arabic meaning, and quoted a meaning in a biblical dictionary
From all this infomation, plus the fact that neither the qur'aan, nor the hadith, nor tafseer books have mentioned faran as another name for makkah, I came to this conclusion.
According to your understanding (or at least the general traditional understanding), the qur'aan referred to makkah in other names and titles becca, ummul qura; albaladul amin; albalad almubarak, alarDhul muqaddasa...but never as faran, although Paran is mentioned in previous scripts...why? What qur'aanic evidence did you bring to support that?
The name faran as another name for makkah only emerged to contest the verse you quoted from the OT. This is very clear from just googling "faran" in Arabic, and you will find it ONLY in forums contesting, like you, that makkah is mentioned in the OT. To tell the truth, I have never heard of faran=mecca before...I went to normal schools where we were taught hadith, sira and qur'aan for 12 years before University, but was never taught this name (I knew of the other names I cited, though). . I even went as far as asking many Sudanese here in the UK and abroad (all traditionalists), and not a single one knew of this name. I wonder if other in this forum knew of this other name before....or perhaps Syed Ahmed Khan was the first to bring up an old argument that did not survive well?
Conclusion No evidence whatsoever that makkah=faran/Paran
Not too fast dear Samia; Ibn Khatir writes
(And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him,) means, when he grew up and started to go with his father and walk with him, for Ibrahim used to go every so often to check on his son and his mother in the land of Faran (i.e., Makkah), to see how they were doing
I donot know what to say about your 12 years schooling of HADITH and TAFSEER. Remember we are not discussing authenticity of what is written we are just EXPOSING the intention behind what you said.
You contested the meaning of "Paran" but does it mean what I quoted was wrong? if Yes say it so! In fact it is more likely as is suppported by Quranic verses and History.
as Paran is the ancient name of the part of Arabia where the children of Ishmael, the ancestors of Muhammad, settled. The Arabic form of the word Paran is Faran or Pharan. Jacut's Geographishes Worterbuch (F. Westenfielt, Leipzig, 1862, Vol. III, P834) says that Faran is a name of Mecca. The word Faran seems to be the Arabic Farran. It means two refugees. It appears that the place took the name from Hager and Ishmaelas, who came there as refugees. Dr. A. Benisch call it in his translation of Pentateuch the desert of Paran.
dear Samia, please stop dreaming; come to the real world.
Any thing remaining unanswered from your post will be adressed in next post, while taking up Agent XXX's claims.
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Agent XXx
Historical Evidences? Ambiguous verses are not historical evidences bro, they are interpretations based on assumptions
What do you mean by ambiguous verses?? and all those researchers research work is just a crap which i noted??
Hail to you then!!!!Can you show from the Quran where Ishmael settled?
Can you produce one single verse from the Quran stating that he settled in Mecca?
Can you even find a single verse where Becca/puran is said to be an alternate name for Mecca?
In what direction was the original Qiblah pointing?
What is the location of the sacred mosque i.e. masjid al-haram?
If you claim that it is Mecca, can you produce a single verse stating that the sacred mosque is located there?
What was so special about Mecca? Why ibrahim/hagar/Ismail avoided medina an oasis and went all the way to a place hot humid place with no agriculture and sparse water?
Why did Ibrahim banished his son so far away?
Did Ibrahim/Ismail came to Mecca before the birth of ishaq or after?- Yes! and infact I showed you where Ismail settled according to Quran; for the last time again
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
So this clearly refutes the claim of ayman who said that house of Allah can be any where.
- Yes! and infact i showed you already but for one more time
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 396-97)"
- Yes! Galatians 425 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca
"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 425)"
"He said 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 332)"Next points in next post
but for the three questions of yours which have been answered I have only One
Where is the House of Allah located ??
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SAMIA
Not too fast dear Samia; Ibn Khatir writes(And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him,) means, when he grew up and started to go with his father and walk with him, for Ibrahim used to go every so often to check on his son and his mother in the land of Faran (i.e., Makkah), to see how they were doing
Here's the Arabic tafseer of Ibn Katheer for verses 37 99-113 amongst which is verse 102 you cited above. Please show me where this word "faran" IN ANY MEANING appears (this is also what I have in hardcopy)
http//www.al-eman.com/islamLib/viewchp.asp?BID=134&CID=101#s14
Moreover. Al-Tabari who is before Ibn Katheer did not mention this name in his tafseer for these verses, nor did Ar-Razi.
I donot know what to say about your 12 years schooling of HADITH and TAFSEER. Remember we are not discussing authenticity of what is written we are just EXPOSING the intention behind what you said.
You contested the meaning of "Paran" but does it mean what I quoted was wrong? if Yes say it so! In fact it is more likely as is suppported by Quranic verses and History.
as Paran is the ancient name of the part of Arabia where the children of Ishmael, the ancestors of Muhammad, settled. The Arabic form of the word Paran is Faran or Pharan. Jacut's Geographishes Worterbuch (F. Westenfielt, Leipzig, 1862, Vol. III, P834) says that Faran is a name of Mecca. The word Faran seems to be the Arabic Farran. It means two refugees. It appears that the place took the name from Hager and Ishmaelas, who came there as refugees. Dr. A. Benisch call it in his translation of Pentateuch the desert of Paran.
You don't have to say anything. I cited it as an example of the religious education system in one of the biggest muslim countries in Africa and the Arab world that fails to teach its pupils that Faran=makkah.
I have no problem with what F. Westenfiet says except that
1- Faran is a name of Mecca (is it faran or farran? This is important in Arabic)
- Faran is the Arabic of Farran (wrong faran means two mice). It means two refugess (wrong again two escapees, two who are fleeing; two on the run) If you do not trust Arabic dictionaries or do not like them, look up the occurances of the root frr in the qur'aan to flee. (I am even citing verses and chapters numbers to make it easier for you...You are welcome). One flees from a horrible thing, but it seems that the only destination we can flee to is God. This prophet should have fleed to God not to some town full of idols
74 51; 2621; 3316; 628; 8034; 5150 (fleeing to God); 3316; 1818; 3313; 716; 7510