Kaaba again - destroy idols
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Peace Ayman,
I don't know why you are obsessed with Jerusalem. Jerusalem wasn't the town that the prophet emigrated from.
Right, as my earlier response that 1437 does not refer to valley near Jerusalem.
You can ignore the most important turning event in the text and read it as you like. The fact is that no matter how you read it, the year 620-621CE is when the kingdom of the Arab began.
You ignore simple logic ? how can someone trade and raid in Palestine at same time?
"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
A simple timeline same as that echoed by Elias of Nisibis...
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6
622 on 16th Tammuz (16th July AD 622) = 1 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, this day is the beginning of the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs, that is to say the first year of the Hadj according to the Julian, (not the present Gregorian) calendar. This date AH 1, is used as year 1 for dates given in the Islamic era, (AH)?24th June AD 624 = 3 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, , the third year of the Islamic era began on 24th day of the month Haziran in the year AG 935. This reference has been used to calculate the beginning of the Arabian calendar on 16th July AD 622, see above.References
, p. xii 'Acta Martyrium et Sanctorum Syriace' volume 2, Paul Bedjan. Publ. Leipzig, Harrassowitz 1891. In particular, a Syriac chronicle found there and edited from Syriac texts by Elias of Nisibis and Gregory Bar Hebraeus.
, p. 58 ?Histoires d?Ahoudemmeh et de Marouta, m?tropolitains Jacobites de Tagrit et de l?orient..? Nau, F. in Patrologia Orientalis, tome III, fascicule 1, No. 11, published Brepols, Belgium 1982. Also published by the BNF and available on-line. http//gallica.bnf.fr/ark/12148/bpt6k9066b
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Peace Ayman,
While you are at it, check the meaning of "fil" in Chapter 105 (which also fits in the context and it is not elephant).
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/105
1051 Alam tara kayfa faAAala rabbuka bi-as-habi alfeeli
How do YOU say Elephant??
http//www.himandus.net/elephanteria/library/language/how_say_eleph.htmlHowever you say it or spell it - olifant - fel - - piugh - elefante - slon - domrey - - elephant - elevant - elefantti - norsu - elefant - ?l?phant - eilifint - ailbhean - elefantas - - helfond - hathi - tus - f?ll - gajah - erebanti - fil - kokiri - - elephanten - barrus - elephantus - zilonus - elef?nt - arewhana - pil - tembo - ndovo - haathi - peel - it's an ELEPHANT.
What are you talking about? None of that nonsense about elephants is in the inscriptions or the coin. Are these your own fairy tales?
Aksum An African Civilisation of Late Antiquity by Dr. Stuart Munro-Hay.
http//users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak3.htmlThere is only one eye-witness description of an Aksumite king, that of Kaleb Ella Atsbeha as related by one of Justinian's ambassadors, whose words are preserved by the historian John Malalas (ed. Migne 1860 670). The report ? for what it is worth; some commentators see it as a more or less imaginary description (Schneider 1984 162) ? shows the kind of pomp with which these ancient rulers supported their position, and details a barbaric magnificence and ostentation. Kaleb appeared in a high car, decorated with golden wreaths, supported on a wheeled platform drawn by four elephants.
A number of different animals are attested from the Aksumite period in Ethiopia. Inscriptions and literary references to Aksum mention cattle, sheep, camels, and elephants. The latter were apparently not usually trained by the Ethiopians, according to Kosmas (Wolska-Conus 1973 354; see Pankhurst 1974 219-220). When the king wanted some for show he had young ones taken to be brought up in captivity. Elephant tusks, adds Kosmas, were sent by ship to India, Persia, Himyar and the Roman empire.
Outline of the History of Ancient Southern Arabia by Walter W. Muller
http//www.yemenweb.com/info/_disc/0000002c.htmTowards the end of his reign, Abreha launched yet another military campaign against the North which has been preserved in the memory of the Arabs because of the elephants accompanying it. Abreha failed to take Mecca as he had intended and the operation had to be abandoned and the operation had to be abandoned.
Sure sound like the people of the elephant to me, which their symbol?
1055 FajaAAalahum kaAAasfin ma/koolin
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Kaleb1.jpg
What good does it do to be united superficially with people who are only united on nonsense??
I?m sitting next to our 90 year-old grandmother who did Hajj; she is sick and near death, hardly knows any Qur?an except a few verses which she memorized and recites before sleeping. My great-great grandfather was an Imam in the ancient city of Shkoder/Scutari (nice place with numerous Mosques and Churches near each other) thus our family was persecuted by the former Communist/Atheist regime for being believers; a 16 year-old uncle was imprisoned 25 years in hard labor camp, when I last visited an aunt told me how she too was imprisoned 5 years and had to endure sleeping on a cold jail floor with only a blanket for comfort ? so yeah, I?m united with them and countless millions across the world who believe in God and doing good.
Peace
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Peace
Let us not stray here from the thread.
Pointers- Why are there other cubes that look like Kaaba?,
Maybe other people and other towns tried to copy the success story of Ka'bah. The pagans worshipped idols and kept them at Ka'bah and that brought a lot of business for the meccans. Maybe others wanted a share and they tried but as we know unsuccessfully.
- Were they also dedicated to The God, then got corrupted by idol pagan worship?,
I just answered this one. Read^^^
- Who built them and when? after or before Abraham time?
You sound like you know something about archaeology and carbon dating. Why can't you figure it out? If you prove that any of them predated Abrahams' time, then I consider taking you seriously.
- Who carved the footprints of Abraham near KSA Kaaba (don't insult my intelligence by saying it is his real footprints)
I don't know. Do you think the wahhabis did it? What is your theory?
- The black stones, who brought them? are black stones in other cubes same as the KSA Kaaba?
The black stone existed at the time of prophet and he respected and even kissed it. What is its origin? We are all from god and we all return to him. Why is that such a central issue for you man?
- In the West we have witch worships, where evil worshipers will process fully naked around a tree, or a stone, invoking witches to help them with problems, this is also done as a ritual of rebirth at the end of December, I read a Hadith where it said the Arabs used to circumbulate around the Kaaba naked, the Mohammed asked them to put a white cloth instead... How about the other cubic structures, why were they not destroyed... Is it OK to worship the Sun, and Allat and Mannat and Al-Uzzah?, since they were left standing? or did some of the Arabs still felt keen of their Idols and scared to destroy them despite The Quranic revelations?
All of the idols in Ka'bah were destroyed by prophet himself. There was no manat or laat or uzza left. I don't kow what you are talking about. Other curbic structures were never important. Probably they had already lost any significance (if they had any) by that time and were in ruins. The muslims didn't destroy the egyptian artifacts either.
- In this age of Science, why KSA Government will not allow archaeological and forensic studies to confirm what is written in hadiths?
What forensic studies you are going to perform? What do you think the possible outcome of such studies would be. If you are firm in your beliefs, then you wouldn't need forensic evidence. Do you believe in what you are saying on this forum or you are just conjecturing. So do you think that what the hadith says is false and on what authority you make such claims?
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Salam WR WB
hajirfm
paly,
if i had had the funding i will gather a team to do an extensive archaeological survey of the Prophet's alleged whereabouts and associated areas in the Hijaz, can you provide for such a grant? ;D
i am a trained scientist, and i believe science is a powerful tool to validate or debunk statements and beliefs...
you seem to think that Allah will be upset that i ask for such a study, on the contrary it will increase me in faith either way, good scientists are open to validated facts not word of mouth statements or semantic language variations...
Hadith have a lot of inconsistencies and scientifically will therefore be considered unreliable as source of information...
The Quran stands its ground pretty well no thanks to any of us, and it is that Book I firmly believe will stand against any form of scientific scrutiny as it has so far, in fact Allah challenges us to do so!
Dude stop beating around the bush, we are experiencing our dark ages as the Europeans did with the Inquisition, lucky we are so powerless, we would have turned the planet into a raging inferno...
Ayman makes very good points as far as Makka and residual pagan traditions in Arabia are concerned, though I do not agree with many other of his Quranic interpretations...
and btw why do you think Allah bothered to still refer to the Arab deities Allat, Mannat and Al-Uzzah in The Quran if they were going to stop being relevant after The Prophet establishes Islam? The Quran being The Book for all Mankind, and for all remaining times?
Cool day, and keep on smiling -
Peace Nun,
Right, as my earlier response that 1437 does not refer to valley near Jerusalem.
Good, so stop resorting to fallacies. Since you know that Jerusalem is irrelevant and I never proposed that Jerusalem had any significance then you were in fact building a convenient straw man.
You ignore simple logic ? how can someone trade and raid in Palestine at same time?
"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
A simple timeline same as that echoed by Elias of Nisibis...
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6I didn't ignore anything. I addressed all your points. It is you who deliberately ignores to address the points that you have no answer for and you know it and everyone here can go back and read my posts and see which points you couldn't answer. NO MATTER HOW YOU DECIDE TO READ THE PASSAGE, it is clear that the kingdom of the Arabs began in 620-621CE. This is at least ten years before the traditional dating. At that time according to traditions, they were still refugees escaping persecution.
You ignore to address my points because you know very well that this is not just one anomaly but we are seeing an overwhelming pattern of misdating in traditions that pushes narrator age backward and event date forward so that they can overlap. Traditions clearly have the prophet's birth date wrong, which is the starting point for the entire so-called Islamic chronology. I based the more likely date of 552CE on Abraha's inscription but this is not the only evidence. Other researchers have independently reached a similar date based on other evidences. For example, an inscription and a Greek account lead Lawrence Conrad to fix the prophet's birth in 552CE (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_Historical_Muhammad and http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Conrad ).
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/105
1051 Alam tara kayfa faAAala rabbuka bi-as-habi alfeeli
How do YOU say Elephant??
http//www.himandus.net/elephanteria/library/language/how_say_eleph.html
However you say it or spell it - olifant - fel - - piugh - elefante - slon - domrey - - elephant - elevant - elefantti - norsu - elefant - ?l?phant - eilifint - ailbhean - elefantas - - helfond - hathi - tus - f?ll - gajah - erebanti - fil - kokiri - - elephanten - barrus - elephantus - zilonus - elef?nt - arewhana - pil - tembo - ndovo - haathi - peel - it's an ELEPHANT.By referring to a modern Arabic on-line dictionary, you are only demonstrating your ignorance of the difference between Modern Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic.
From Al-Mohit Classical Arabic dictionary
According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, "feel" means "atrocious and wrong view/opinion". So the passage would be better translated as
- Haven't you seen what your lord did to those with the atrocious and wrong view/opinion?
Who are the people with the atrocious and wrong opinion that used to dwell in the same location where the people of the prophet lived?
They are the people of Lot. They are the only people described in 1182 and 1574 as being punished by being hit with "7ijarat min sijjil" exactly the same term used in 1054. They of course had an "atrocious and wrong view/opinion" and as described in 1051, the people of the prophet can see the destroyed remains of their civilization (2540 and 37137-13.
Aksum An African Civilisation of Late Antiquity by Dr. Stuart Munro-Hay.
http//users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak3.htmlElephants are normal in Africa and India. On the other hand, there is zero evidence of elephants being used by the Abassynians in battles in Arabia. Surely, Abraha's inscription would have mentioned such an unusual thing if it occurred. It is not surprising that the inscription doesn't mention elephants. It would have been highly impractical to bring elephants into the desert and carry their weight in water. Moreover, elephants had fallen out of use as battle gear approximately seven centuries earlier. This is for the simple reason that elephants' feet are very sensitive and it is very easy to defeat elephants in battle by placing thorns or any sharp objects in their path. Elephants would have suffered greatly in the scorching sands of the desert without giving an invading army any advantage. Thus, it is practically impossible that Abraha used elephants on his expedition to Arabia and this is confirmed by the complete absence of their mention in the inscription.
Outline of the History of Ancient Southern Arabia by Walter W. Muller
http//www.yemenweb.com/info/_disc/0000002c.htmWalter Muller's personal opinion is irrelevant. Where did he get this opinion? The ONLY and ultimate source for all such opinions is Ibn Hisham and Tabari.
Sure sound like the people of the elephant to me, which their symbol?
1055 FajaAAalahum kaAAasfin ma/koolinAgain, there is no elephant on the coin. The wheat stalks symbolized abundance and wealth and thus it was featured prominently on the coins of many ancient (and modern) people. The use of wheat stalks on coins was ubiquitous in the ancient world. There are literally thousands of examples of such wheat stalk symbols on ancient coins (you can even buy your own on eBay). For example, see the following ancient coins with similar wheat stalk symbols
http//www.ubiquity-design.com/rcj2/html/romanlife.html
http//rg.ancients.info/lion/Mazaios_stater_o.jpg
http//i9.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/a2/06/cd6f_1_b.JPGI?m sitting next to our 90 year-old grandmother who did Hajj; she is sick and near death, hardly knows any Qur?an except a few verses which she memorized and recites before sleeping. My great-great grandfather was an Imam in the ancient city of Shkoder/Scutari (nice place with numerous Mosques and Churches near each other) thus our family was persecuted by the former Communist/Atheist regime for being believers; a 16 year-old uncle was imprisoned 25 years in hard labor camp, when I last visited an aunt told me how she too was imprisoned 5 years and had to endure sleeping on a cold jail floor with only a blanket for comfort ? so yeah, I?m united with them and countless millions across the world who believe in God and doing good.
My grand parents believed in Kaaba and that doing the so-called Hajj wipes your sin and all this nonsense too. Unfortunately, they already died before I could advise them otherwise. I wish I knew then what I know now. There are many Christians, Buddhists and all sorts of religious people who believe in the god and are doing good and were persecuted too. If you care about your family beyond this worldly existence, then you should follow the example of Luqman in 3113. The first advice he gave to his family is to not setup partners with the god. This includes a special stone cube. The truth of not setting partners with the god is what should unite you not some imagined focal point in so-called Mecca (which you don't truly/really face anyway).
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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Peace Hajirfm,
The black stone existed at the time of prophet and he respected and even kissed it. What is its origin? We are all from god and we all return to him. Why is that such a central issue for you man?
This is such a central issue because setting up partners with the god in any shape or form is a central issue in the great reading and in our entire existence. It is the only unforgivable sin. This is how central it is. You want people to forget about this issue and not worry and be happy idolizing a stone!!!!???
So according to your fallacious thinking, it is also OK to kiss and revere the cross because like everything it is also "from the god and will return to him".
No. Not everything is from the god. Falsehood is not from the god. The material of the black stones and the crosses is from the god but the false idea about revering such inert objects is not from the god. It is from people like you. The god destroys your falsehood with truth/reality.
Peace,
Ayman
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Dude stop beating around the bush, we are experiencing our dark ages as the Europeans did with the Inquisition, lucky we are so powerless, we would have turned the planet into a raging inferno...
Ayman makes very good points as far as Makka and residual pagan traditions in Arabia are concerned, though I do not agree with many other of his Quranic interpretations...
Totally Agree
and btw why do you think Allah bothered to still refer to the Arab deities Allat, Mannat and Al-Uzzah in The Quran if they were going to stop being relevant after The Prophet establishes Islam? The Quran being The Book for all Mankind, and for all remaining times?
Good Argument.
peace
siki
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Peace Hajirfm,
This is such a central issue because setting up partners with the god in any shape or form is a central issue in the great reading and in our entire existence. It is the only unforgivable sin. This is how central it is. You want people to forget about this issue and not worry and be happy idolizing a stone!!!!???
So according to your fallacious thinking, it is also OK to kiss and revere the cross because like everything it is also "from the god and will return to him".
No. Not everything is from the god. Falsehood is not from the god. The material of the black stones and the crosses is from the god but the false idea about revering such inert objects is not from the god. It is from people like you. The god destroys your falsehood with truth/reality.
Peace,
Ayman
I think you are over reacting. I don't think muslims wake up everyday thinking about the blackstone. "Oh what a nice day. I wonder how is the blackstone doing. How am I going to please the blackstone? I should get and pray 2 rak'ah for the blackstone. I hope the blackstone is happy with me. I can't wait to go to hajj and please the blackstone and kiss it."
It's not like that. It's just a stone. Get over it. Are you going to wage a jihad against microphones in mosques too? Well they are there in every mosque and it looks like people are praying to it. Why have muslims erected idols like microphones in their mosques? If you start focusing on this you may actually start convincing yourself that people are worshipping the microphone. This is a disease my friend that you have. Do you actually think about the blackstone when you meet muslims? If yes, then you are obsessed with this blackstone and it's ruining your life. So it is you who is thinking about blackstone constantly and can't get it off your mind. We on the other hand don't even remember it except once in our lifetimes if we are lucky to go to hajj and if we get a chance we may kiss the stone. It's a non-issue.
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I don't see the revelance of the microphone with the subject. The microphone isn't a centre were people turn to to pray. It's just that in big mosques the imam can be heard.
I don't see the revelance of the microphone with the subject.
Microphones are comon object. They are not suposed to be holy like the place of mecca.
So what, the stone is more considered than the microphone.
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'coz i kiss my m'phone all the time ;D
Astaghfirullahi 3theem.... God forbid...
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The naskh and mansukh is the biggest ploy that Satan has used to confuse us in our Deen.
Especially when used in tafseer of The Quran. As if Allah keeps on changing His mind while the revelation is being descended...
The naskh that Allah refers to in Quran is from one revelation to another (ie eg Innjeel and Quran or Torah and Innjeel)...
But it was hijacked to mean last to be stated, so RasulHamsa what you are looking for is the latest Hadith to refer to the writing of the Prophet traditions... How are you going to find it, in fact one of the Hadith comes reported to Abu Bakar who went to Aisha asking her to burn the Hadith she collected, and that was after Rasul's death... (I believe on Sahih Muslim reported)...
So we have got traditions of The Prophet, then traditions of The Sahaba... and then Traditions of the Tabi'eens, and Tabi'eens tabi'een...
On what authority? and who cares if its authentic or not...
Is The Quran not enough for the Believers?
Woe to Mankind, they always like to pervert the truth with additions that suit their egos... -
Peace Nun,
Clearly 2127 is not talking about primarily a physical structure. How can you raise the foundations FROM the house? Is it an upside-down house?
That's a good question that has been raised before. An answer would require imagination, not memory. What I have imagined is an existing construction whose function is elevated. When I think of elevation, I think of a movement towards my Lord.
To me, the basic materialistic structure is the pyramid. Invert the pyramid you could raise the foundation. The inverted pyramid was the shape of the Canadian pavillion during the 1967 World Exposition held in Montreal, Expo 67 as it was known.
From what I understand, St-Peter's Cathedral in Rome was built on the site of a Roman shrine. Thus presumably that Christian shrine would have been elevated from the foundations of something that existed prior. This is just an example. Could Abraham then have done the same thing? i.e. converting an existing construction or location which had a cultural meaning to where it stood and giving it a new sense?
Noah's work ended up in destruction, couldn't Abraham's work been able to do some recycling? Clearly...
adjwi
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Peace adjwi
you might have a point concerning Qa'abah with the foundation argument.
I personally believe it is a physical place and not a metaphor.
It most certainly has to be cleaned from any idol worship activities, apparent or hidden...
The question is, will Allah condone that a place initially built for idol-worship be recycled for His worship...
I am more inclined to believe that there was an altar to Allah initially, and from The Quran it seems that It was raised by Abraham and Ishmael. The Quran does not seem to say that there was such an altar before then..., but I hope we are open to evidence, one way or another - Free-Minds should not be Closed-Minds
As for Noah's work, respectfully I do not agree that it was destroyed, first there was some who followed him, however small their numbers, and never can the work of a Prophet be destroyed anyway, but the people can be destroyed with their disobedience (albeit not always)... -
Salaam all
2226-27
"And (as) we showed Ibrahim the site of the house that "don't set partners with me" and purify it for the travellers and the residents and those who submit in humility. And proclaim "hajj" to the people ; they will come to you on foot and riding from every distant place.
My question is this
When Ibrahim first invited people to hajj, did he start telling them his story with his two wives and how his first wife was running between two hills searching for water for the young Ismael, and how, while building the house the devil appeared and he had to stone it three times etc...etc.. .And then ordered them to re-enact this story? Calling them from everywhere just to play this part of his life?
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As for Noah's work, respectfully I do not agree that it was destroyed, first there was some who followed him, however small their numbers, and never can the work of a Prophet be destroyed anyway, but the people can be destroyed with their disobedience (albeit not always)...
Noah's work was not destroyed, however at the end it comes to destruction. If you consider the historical time line, Abraham's work ends in construction. At one point conversion must occur, otherwise all you have is destruction throughout history.
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My question is this
When Ibrahim first invited people to hajj, did he start telling them his story with his two wives and how his first wife was running between two hills searching for water for the young Ismael, and how, while building the house the devil appeared and he had to stone it three times etc...etc.. .And then ordered them to re-enact this story? Calling them from everywhere just to play this part of his life?
Peace Samia,
Aren't you reading outside of the Quran? Are those two wives mentionned in the book? If the Quran is not the reference, what is?
adjwi
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Peace Samia,
Aren't you reading outside of the Quran? Are those two wives mentionned in the book? If the Quran is not the reference, what is?
adjwi
Salaam adjwi
In fact my question is to those who believe in this story and find it in their undrstanding of hajj rituals, which they claim are symbolic following into the footsteps of Ibrahim. But if Ibrahim himslef was the first to proclaim hajj according to qur'aan, how did he perform it?