can you scientifically prove there's only one God?
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Probably because he doesnt exist OPF....
Do you think we all believe in a pie-in-the-sky God? Seriously?
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On close inspection most i have encountered believe in a supernatural anthromorphic,unprovable,illogical god,yes......
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Odd, but I find no such evidence for that sort of god...
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Thats good,so we agree,so what is the scientific evidence for the one god you believe in,and what is the nature of this god you believe in if its not anthromorphic or supernatural?
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I think the closest view resembling what I believe is pantheistic in a sense. I have no knowledge of what I don't know, the best I can do is make an educated guess and even then, that will be an uneducated guess.
To me, the concept of "God" is not so much important as the ways in which I see this God manifest himself - through cause and effect, through ways in which humans would not think of through pure intuition - instead, to understand this God and his power, we see that we must observe how he effects things. Now, I don't believe in any way, shape or form that the miracles in the Quran went against physics - for instance, how can we deny hell, when there are clearly many many stars that resemble this description? How can we deny things such as the parting of the red sea, when such a thing could concievably happen, through ways in which we have not yet documented? How can we be so concrete in saying that God literally created the world in 2 days, and not just 2 stages as is more logical? Would an omnipotent God not be able to create the universe as we percieve it now?
Now, the concept of God, I have no idea if this God is anthropomorphic, is nature itself, or supernatural, or anything - this is clearly the "unseen". What I see is that this God manifests himself through cause and effect, and that this God can quite clearly originate the universe from a deterministic sense. If the universe can be defined by a function f(x), I believe this God set the value of x. No such intervention is needed for an omni-potent God who can simply say "be" and it happens.
In a sense, what I am trying to say is that we cannot ever prove or disprove that God is anthropomorphic, supernatural, all-inclusive, etc.
What you percieve as God seems like what a few misguided people who believed they knew the unseen percieved, and there is no basis for such a God.
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Ok,when you say god can originate just by saying 'be',is this a metaphor or an anthromorphic resemblance? Do you have details on this process of 'be' and it is,or is this part of origination unseen and/or forever supernatural?
I know its not possible to totally disprove the existence of an entity,but in probability i think we can say its negligible......The cause and effect you see doesnt have to be as a result of gods 'be',it could be the actual nature of the universe...The problem is i dont see why there is or has to be creator for cause and effect to be the defining factor of all that we know..... -
Metaphor, pure metaphor.
Cause and effect, is the nature of the universe.
There does not have to be a creator. But it depends on how you define a "creator". If a "creator" is omnipotent, it stands to reason they could "create" us and ensure that we shall never know, or will ever be able to know. This, I believe is what the Quran means by "the unseen".
There does not have to be a "creator" for cause and effect - it just "is", implicitly, "be".
In other words, if something just "is", and this is the creator's method, we cannot know anything about the creator aside from that which the creator wishes to divulge - this can be included in the metaphorical "be". Or to rephrase, there is no need for a "creator" in the way we percieve it - the universe being in a state of "being" is enough. It's very hard to put what I mean into words, but that's the closest I think I'm getting.
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Ok,i know sometimes things are hard to put into words.....So your saying god is essentially supernatural and all-powerful? We could never discover the unseen without his permission,and maybe he will never give that permission? (sounds highly anthromorphic hey?!) So science is forever excluded from these issues?
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Nope. As you note the difficulty in putting this in writing, I am saying that this anthropomorphism we attribute to God, may not be in the sense we percieve it - i.e. that this "God" exists well out of the bounds of sapience, logic, reasoning, sight, hearing, etc. In other words, this God could be an aether, we do not know. But an aether has a materialistic implementation - so it cannot be this God we search for.
Now, it may be that this God, again, let me remind you - out of the domain of sapience and human reasoning - does not permit us to do this, for reasons we cannot percieve. Considering this God also exists out of the domain of time, there is no "without and will never" either. Imagine this God as a chess-computer that can calculate an infinite number of possibilities of chess moves - this God does not just know determinism, this God originates determinism itself.
Science, is not excluded from this whatsoever. Science, I would say is excluded from the knowledge of the "unseen", however. But do we know what we do not know? I've found even George Bush with his "Known knowns" speech recognizes this. In order to know what we do not know about what we do not know, we must know what we do not know - impossible through any avenue. In other words, the unseen God is out of the bounds of perception.
Now, science, I keep stating this in other places, only accounts for ONE piece of the "why are we here" puzzle - the how we were here. Can we seriously prove anything of this puzzle from that? No. That's why, I could never be atheist. I recognize that there may be things I cannot percieve, or that no human can percieve. And history shows that such things exist (of course, the group of things we cannot percieve depend on the means we have at the time). Did any human prior to 3000BC know of things such as pulsars, or the Big-Bang, or evolution? I doubt it. Could original man fathom the existance of Uranium-238 and then fathom the power this would bring? I doubt this also. It is out of the bounds of perception given the means. Sure, they may fathom it, but can they prove it? Not without the means. Without such a thing, they would have been thought of as crackpots. But hey, U-238 exists, and we learnt its painful power... Fire exists, I imagine early humans may have learnt of that thing's painful power too. Now, the other peice of the puzzle is our own logic, reasoning and philosophy, backed up by the first third. The final third is what we find after we die - the answer.
But what we see is that there is intelligence in cause and effect - when there are a bazillion variables, it is shown to result in reversal of entropy - the core of the evolution theory...
Reversal of entropy indicates order - order indicates God.
Well, there's a painfully punched out version of what I percieve as God. You will notice that I steer clear of labelling "him" as of any form, for the simple reason that I don't know, you don't know, I don't think the prophets knew, Bob the milkman doesn't know, Hawking the physicist doesn't know, etc, etc, etc.
Now, let me be blunt. You cannot empirically prove that which is not there.
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You are assuming that which is not there is real.....
All the examples you gave have been discovered now,but you say god will never be discovered so the analogy is not relevant.....I know you cant disprove the supernatural totally,but you can live life without considering it meaningful,applicable or likely... You cant disprove the existance of an invisible group of aliens applying gravity to the planet,because by definition they are invisible,yet you can appreciate empirically the gravity they cause,no?......I hope you can see that attributing gravity or some cause and effect to a supernatual entity is fraught with illogic,mystery and cannot be disproved totally,but can be considered neglible and illogical...I mean nobody takes seriously the premise that these 'invisible' aliens exist,so just attributing empirical real life cause and effect to god or supernatural entities i feel is wholly misleading.....
ps; i could also say that these 'invisible' aliens are responsible for the 'supposed harmony' of gravity,and you couldnt disprove this notion empirically.... -
But then these "invisible aliens" would fit into the concept of "God"!
Of course, you can disregard the supernatural totally and live your life so. I implicitly covered that - God (as defined) clearly does not employ an interventionist policy, he says "Be", and the universe comes into being, in this state, as an isolated cocoon.
You know the saying, when someone fails at something blindingly obvious - "There is no God... sigh" - Maybe we are a device for this God to empirically verify that there is a God? rotfl
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Just saw this thread.
I think you can logically prove that IF God exists, then logically, the most likely scenario would be one God.
The Quran applies some logic with reference to this point here
If there were gods in them (heaven and earth) except for God, then they would have been ruined...
God has not taken a son, nor is there with Him any god. If it were so, then every god would have taken what He created and they would have tried to overtake each other. God be glorified against what they describe!
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I posted a Big Presentation on another Forum about some of the Questions like this regarding God, His Attributes, and the Dogmatic elements.
But...unfortunately, it got Deleted accidentally. So Inshallah I will re-make it and post it here. (I should have saved it)anyways,
I used to be an Atheist...("weak atheism" which was due more to rebellion not actual belief).
I think One of the MOST IMPORTANT Lessons in Life to know is this
YOU CANNOT Prove Allah's Existence... Because.... it is NOT your Duty. It is NOT your Job.
Your Job is ONLY to Give Dawah.(Deliver a Message)...It is ALLAH who then "Reveals" Himself to the Individual. Allah does it Himself with his Infinite Knowledge. You cannot Prove His Existence, because...that is NOT Your job to do.
Once you realize that, Things Get much easier for you.
what you can do...is Show what HE has Created.
Mathematics. Codes (19), Big bang, Life, Death, Etc....
If I were to talk to an Agnostic person, I'd First Give him the Quran (Illuminating Book)...
Then If he asks for more...Show him the Quran's Scientific Miracles, and the Quran's Mathematic Codes that preserve the scripture.
if Allah wills, He will Submit. Allah knows All. -
peace
YOU CANNOT Prove Allah's Existence...
o
can't you? hmmof course you can
what is bringing about the goodness in the universe?the evolution over millions of years?
do people like what has been brought about over time?
of course they do ........so follow it.
peace
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peace
o
can't you? hmmof course you can
what is bringing about the goodness in the universe?the evolution over millions of years?
do people like what has been brought about over time?
of course they do ........so follow it.
peace
well, let me rephrase that... WE (you and me) can agree and Prove or Understand Divine Truth in refference to Allah's existance.
But to an Atheist or Agnostic.... WE are just full of B.s.
Even if we were to show the Atheist All of the Beautiful things we know about the Quran, Logic, Science, Etc...
...They will still think we are full of it...and Still believe there Is No God.
So therefore, There is Really Nothing we can do to prove Allah's Existence to him. ONLY Allah can do that.
And really, its not even our duty. Our Duty is Simply to give him (the atheist) the Message.
Then ALLAH will reveal the Unexplainable Things to him.DO you get what I am trying to say?
Its like, If I say "Look! Alhumdulilah (praise be to God), He has Created Mountains"....The Atheist will think I am crazy, and will not understand. He will just say... Uh, actually Mountains were created over Millions of years of Stress and tectonic plates, that came from the Earth...That came from the Big bang, that came from.....Coincidental Creation..(Not God).
So, Its only Allah who can do the rest. Not Us. Only Allah can open his Mind to let him Know about Allah. ;D
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well, let me rephrase that... WE (you and me) can agree and Prove or Understand Divine Truth in refference to Allah's existance.
But to an Atheist or Agnostic.... WE are just full of B.s.
Even if we were to show the Atheist All of the Beautiful things we know about the Quran, Logic, Science, Etc...
...They will still think we are full of it...and Still believe there Is No God.
So therefore, There is Really Nothing we can do to prove Allah's Existence to him. ONLY Allah can do that.
And really, its not even our duty. Our Duty is Simply to give him (the atheist) the Message.
Then ALLAH will reveal the Unexplainable Things to him.DO you get what I am trying to say?
Its like, If I say "Look! Alhumdulilah (praise be to God), He has Created Mountains"....The Atheist will think I am crazy, and will not understand. He will just say... Uh, actually Mountains were created over Millions of years of Stress and tectonic plates, that came from the Earth...That came from the Big bang, that came from.....Coincidental Creation..(Not God).
So, Its only Allah who can do the rest. Not Us. Only Allah can open his Mind to let him Know about Allah. ;D
Why can't the subsequent forces after the big bang be Allah?
And so the way the agnostic understands is with a different visual interpretation thus he does believe in Allah.
peace
