Can the quran work out of its arabic boundries?
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I don't know. But it sure is pressing upon me. I have to learn Arabic. I mean is it really learning, no yeah, to read those words in the language Muhammed knew, amazing. But did God truly communicate to Muhammed with a spoken word, or was it mental? I'm not intending to be funny. And I'm not infering that God "speaks" to us the way He spoke to Muhammed, I just don't know. But Arabic, yes, must learn (me, personally).
peace
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Peace be upon you,
The message in the book called "Quran" works only when it it is purified from the misconceptions that have covered up the truth about it. The symbolisms must be unveiled and not taken as literal events, but metaphorical truths.
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Peace,
Sis Lilyfleur,
I understand. I'm trying to learn arabic as well. I don't think that the quran can be properly understood without it. Not only arabic, but the culture and customs of that time. The history on which the quran expounds should also be considered.
Bro Idolfree,
What is the point in uncovering the truth when no one would understand it anyway?
The contemporary arabs of the quranic era perceived the quran as clear, they understood it. They did not need to clear up misconceptions, they did not need to research on the meanings of "Ma malakat aimanukum", "Idribuhunna", "eqtau aydiyahuma", "wainshaqqalqamaru", "ramadan", "Muhammed", "Allah" etc. They already knew, that is why they could act. That is why they could build a system according to the quran and blossom.
And, notice how none of the hadith collectors were arabic. No arab would call a "mubeen quran" for cryptic, unless he did not speak the language in which it was written. From there, perceivably the myth that hadiths were needed to explain the quran came into being. A new priesthood was now once again sitting upon the quran and locking its intended audience out.
Dear sisters and brothers, can we revive the system in the quran and at same destroy any need for a priesthood?
Nadeem
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Nadeem, I could not agree with that more. The language barrier is a tool of oppression - the Roman Catholic Church saw what you saw, and imposed latin as the language of the learned. When people cannot look at what they are given, the preisthood ensues. There is no mention of a priesthood in Islam...
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Viewing the quran within its arabic boundaries could be unpleasant,literalism has many unpleasant consequences in the quran....
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Or is it creating a new one headed by the priests of 'personal interpretation as i deem fit'.....
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Salam,
Thank you brother Nadeem, and I agree with Samia. We're all genuine truth seekers here, Quran only people, and work to revive the true message, unite Islam and all for God's triamph.
I personally see the best way to understand Quran is to cross-reference with other related Ayat. So I see it as a system of values and these values don't change so there's no reason to misunderstand the Quran. E.g. I relate "edhrebhunna" to the values in sura 65 (strike against them/ take a break).
For those of you who don't know Arabic, you're in the same boat as Arabic people because the language has changed so much since back then (corrupted).
And I do believe RK when he says that other religions will collapse and die out and people will embrace Islam - because this corresponds to Sura 110 (last revelation). So I believe that organized religion will die out because people do become more skeptical and will realise that our only leader is God and we don't need anything besides the Quran. No Sayyed or Sheik has the right to tell people "you must follow me, you must copy me"- that's not Quranic - especially as they follow Hadith as if it is of equal value to the Quran.
My No.1 view - see Quran as a whole. God repeats himself in the Quran by using different expressions, but the values stay the same.
I personally see that God says something then he explains it in more detail in a later revelation (I do consider the order of revelations too).
So the issue is not linguistic, I believe it's about understanding values.
Salam,
Rida peace
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Salam,
The order of revelations can be found on http//www.submission.org/suras/app23.html . I put this table on my wall. I do think it's important because that's how God taught prophet Mohammad slowly and step by step.
Also see the full discussion about "adhrebhunna" http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14390.0 . This is an example of how people understand the Quran from their hearts by knowing what God values.
There are no linguistic barriers for true believers. Quran is a system of values and laws that don't change.
I believe that the liguistic issues are a test for those who don't really know God, and Arabs fall in these traps more than others too.
Salam peace
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peace be upon you
For those of you who don't know Arabic, you're in the same boat as Arabic people because the language has changed so much since back then (corrupted).
so wait, if the language has changed, shouldn't most people be excused and forgiven if they don't do things according to quran?
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Salam nerpsi, sun
God gave us a brain and a heart to use and search for the truth. There are no excuses! everyone is responsible for his/her own soul. Your parents, sheikh, sayyed ... whatever will not be responsible for you on Judgement day. You're on your own at the end and God knows your most inner thoughts and intentions. voodoo
There are no excuses for people who just take everything passively and not search for truth. Prophet Ibrahim didn't follow his father.
Searching for God's truth in order to support God and spread his truth is a form of Jihad (striving in the cause), and God himself says that He prefers those who are striving than those who are sitting.
There are no excuses for sitting in the dark and wondering who God is and what He values. You can find the truth in so many ways (spiritual, scientific etc.)
God also says that if He knows there's good in people He will guide them (this is deep because only God knows what's in people's hearts). He also says that He blesses whoever He wants and misguides whoever He wants. This would be as a consequence of what's in one's heart and what God feels they deserve- but only He knows best. Some people won't find truth until old age. They're too busy worshipping money, ego, etc.
So there are no excuses, whether you're Arabic or not Arabic we're all in the same boat learning to understand God's rules and values. you can understand Him from His mercy, from His blessings, from the chances He gives ... so many things, and this will guide you to understand what He actually means in the Quran. He has no contradictions. angel
Peace.
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Salaam peace4life
When you prepare for the final exam, does the order of lectures affect how you understand your course? Have you ever considered the sequence of lectures in order to prepare better, and understand better, your material?
If the sequence of the Revelation had any effect, it should have been respected, instead of inventing chapters that collect verses in a non chronological order. Sequence of revelation is the twin sister of reasons of revelation.
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Salam Samia,
Yes, lectures at uni as well as materials (when I was teaching) are always prepared in a way that you have intoduction, brainstorming, then small issues, then get deeper in to it, etc. If you start attending lectures half way through the semester you won't understand the course. So teachers have what they call "scaffolding" for this purpose.
I don't actually know what the issue is for "order of revelations" Vs "order of Quran" - that's not my business.
But I personally do respect the order of revelations. But that's just me! angel
I love the fact that God's last revelation, His final word is that He will triamph. yay
I love that His first revelation implies how He made us and the importance of education and knowledge (so we must research and find truth).
I do respect the order of revelations. sun
Salam
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[quote author=peace4life link=topic=13525.msg131122#msg131122 date=1180946700
Yes, lectures at uni as well as materials (when I was teaching) are always prepared in a way that you have intoduction, brainstorming, then small issues, then get deeper in to it, etc. If you start attending lectures half way through the semester you won't understand the course. So teachers have what they call "scaffolding" for this purpose.
Salaam peace4life
I was not talking about missing any part of the revelation. I was talking about studying or trying to understand the meaning of the revelation with respect to the chronological order. And of course, it was revealed in chronological order, just like the lectures you deliver; but I doubt that you would advise the students to respect the chronological order of you lectures if they want to better understand them.
I was also responding to your message, not because you said you personally respect the order of revelation (which is stated after my response), but because you eluded that it can help understand the revelation. So, if I do not know that ch 110 was the last revelation, how would this affect my understanding of this chapter? (personally, I thought verse 53 was the last part of the revelation, because it sounds like "the conclusion" in a dissertation. I do not see my understanding is changed nowthat I know it is not the last verse to be revealed.
You may wonder why I am taking this issue in this way. Simply because chronological order of the revelation, as well as reasons of the revelation were used as a strong tool for abrogating some verses, that is why I said they are twin sisters.
Having said that, I do respect your choice and have no problem with that, as long as it is a personal matter. I have my reservation only when it is considered indispensable for or a prerequisite to understanding the revelation.
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Salam,
I wouldn't know about order of revelations or order of the chapters in the Quran. But IF we do know the order of revelations then I respect that. But all that doesn't matter, because the Quran is protected by God and sincere believers understand it however they look at it.
For example, you can pick the theme Jinn or Women or charity and take all the verses related to that theme out and collect them together so as to get a clearer picture of the topic. I'm not saying mess with the Quran, this is only for the purpose of cross-referencing. It helps understand God's rules and values as a whole. It's a complete system.
In conclusion, I strongly believe that there are NO linguistic barriers for those who truely want to understand the Quran. God knows best.
Peace. peace
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peace4life i don't take a simple chart on submission.org as any sort of proof of the order of revelation. after all, what is this chart based upon?