divisons or unity?
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opf - this has nothing to do with tom hanks or bruce springsteen
I was talking about the real thing, where apparently those on board became one with the ship - literally.
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peace all,
A random thought came to me today - is it better to go against tradition (in things which are not necessarily bad) for the sake of following quran alone and cause divisions.... or do as Aaron did with Moses and not cause separation??
Ch 20
92. He said ?O Aaron, what prevented you when you saw them being astray??
93. ?Do you not follow me? Have you disobeyed my command??
94. He said ?O son of my mother, do not grab me by my beard nor by my head. I feared that you would say that I separated between the Children of Israel, and that I did not follow your orders.?What do u all think?
But did Aaron participated with them in the worshipping of the golden calf? NO! This is the most important thing.
What you do after that depends on your character either be an Aaron and keep a low profile, or be a Musa and destroy the calf.
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But did Aaron participated with them in the worshipping of the golden calf? NO! This is the most important thing.
What you do after that depends on your character either be an Aaron and keep a low profile, or be a Musa and destroy the calf.
Harun was a Messenger as well, if he couldn't stop his people why he is a low profile? Don't we know many other messengers who failed to stop their people from Idol worshiping? The only reason I could understand why people didn't listen Prophet Harun is just because he was also a slave like them before he became a Messenger but Prophet Moses was never a slave, he was a prince of Egypt and had authority over people. People listened him because they used to obey him already they always saw him as a Pharaoh.
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Harun was a Messenger as well, if he couldn't stop his people why he is a low profile? Don't we know many other messengers who failed to stop their people from Idol worshiping? The only reason I could understand why people didn't listen Prophet Harun is just because he was also a slave like them before he became a Messenger but Prophet Moses was never a slave, he was a prince of Egypt and had authority over people. People listened him because they used to obey him already they always saw him as a Pharaoh.
Whatever the reason is, at the end he kept a low profile. It is not because he is a slave, but because he is not used to leadership (even among slaves there are who enjoy this character). Better compare him to the Samiri who lead them to worship an idol. He is also a slave.
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I feel that this is one of those "one cant exist without the other" type of things. Divisions cause fighting between groups very often, but if every group were united there is the porbability of bad leadership. (Antichrist)
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peace and greetings,
Prophet Moses and Prophet Aaron had authority of guiding people directly by God. Even though Prophet Aaron had God given authority, still he was fearful over creating divisions which he feared more than the truth as well. Prophet Aaron waited for Prophet Moses to have a united and universal opposition to the calf worshippers. Afterwards when Moses required making suicide as a way of repenting, people did not believe him until they had seen God directly so a lighning bolt struck them dead.
254 And Moses said to his people "O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
255 And you said "O Moses, we will not believe you until we see God openly!" So the lightning bolt took you while you were still staring.
256 Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative.
What I want to point out is that it is very difficult and nearly impossible to get convinced for changing traditional practices radically without a valid authority given by God and withour a clear sign or a miraclulous event similar to the one in case of Moses. I myself do not get 100% convinced by free minds articles because they are written in an environment of constant speculations. Whatever the majority of the world's over 1 billion muslims follow cannot be challenged by speculative, divided and skeptical reasoning without God given authority, sign or miracle. I do recognise that severe problems exist in hadees literature and mainstream practices but I do not consider speculative logical reasoning as an answer. It would produce a feeling of inner guilt for most people since they have no clear evidence for such speculative version of beliefs by a God given authority, sign or a miracle.
I hope the time of the miracle might be near when God's second promise with the Jews is fulfilled and a speaking creature is brought forth from the earth which would correct any problems existing currently with traditional practices, unite the muslims and make Islam the dominant religion of the world replacing Christianity as currently the world's largest.I have discussed the nearly coming prophecies in detail in the following thread,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13180.0
In the meantime we can only debate things to a dead end with no consensus on most issue since we do not have a God given authority to miraculously convince oursleves and others of definite solutions as facts
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Salaam abrar
What do you mean by a "valid authority given by God"? What was this valid authority given by God to this man
3620-26 "...and from the farthest part of town came a man. He said "O my people! Obey the messengers. Obey those who ask no wages and who are rightly guided. And why should I not worship Who created me and to Whom you shall be returned? Shall I set up ,other than Him , gods whose intercession will be of no use for me whatsoever, nor can they save me if God intends me any harm? Then I should be in plain error. I have believed in your Lond, so listen to me". It was said to him "Enter Paradise". He said "I wish my people would know! That my Lord has forgiven me and made me of the honoured ones".
The chapter does not even bother to tell who those messengers (with valid authority given to them by God) were, but cited the story of this unknown man.
Message you do not need an authorization from God to understand the message of the script and express your opinion. You need authoriztion from God to set up laws and rules and start judging people. No authorization is needed to change to the better peacefully. Every one has their own brains and is up to them to accept or reject the change.
God already authorized everyone of us to change what our forefathers did, and that's through the many verses of the qur'aan.
We may be debating endlessly, but change happens, at least within ourselves. Those who find debating aimless, can simply stop debating.
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Peace and greetings Samia,
What do you mean by a "valid authority given by God"? What was this valid authority given by God to this man
3620-26 "...and from the farthest part of town came a man. He said "O my people! Obey the messengers. Obey those who ask no wages and who are rightly guided. And why should I not worship Who created me and to Whom you shall be returned? Shall I set up ,other than Him , gods whose intercession will be of no use for me whatsoever, nor can they save me if God intends me any harm? Then I should be in plain error. I have believed in your Lond, so listen to me". It was said to him "Enter Paradise". He said "I wish my people would know! That my Lord has forgiven me and made me of the honoured ones".
The chapter does not even bother to tell who those messengers (with valid authority given to them by God) were, but cited the story of this unknown man.
3613 And put forth for them the example of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it.
3614 Where We sent two to them, but they disbelieved in them, so We supported them with a third one, thus they said "We are messengers to you."
3615 They replied "You are but human beings like us, and the Almighty did not send down anything, you are only telling lies."
3616 They said "Our Lord knows that we have been sent to you."
3617 "And we are only required to give a clear delivery."
3618 They replied "We have welcomed you better than you deserve. If you do not cease, we will stone you, and you will receive a painful retribution from us!"
3619 They said "Keep your welcome with you, for you have been reminded. Indeed, you are transgressing people."
3620 And a man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying "O my people, follow the messengers."
3621 "Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided."
3622 "And why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return?"
3623 "Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Almighty intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me."
3624 "Then I would be clearly astray."
3625 "I have believed in your Lord, so listen to me!"You have taken the verses out of context. According to the full context of the surrounding verses that man believed in the message of the messengers who were being rejected by his people. He simply repeated and reinforced the message without raising speculations and debates with the people about the nature of the message. By reading the verses it seems to be a black and white diffrence between rejectors and believers and not a complicated true believer debate. That man had no God given authority so he claimed nothing radically new or unseen before. He simply repeated what messengers delivered in simple words. He does not seem to be a lonely man claiming that he only knows what the messengers are delivering. He lived in the time of those messengers as indicated in the verse.
3621 "Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided."
He is simply repeating as a supporter of those messengers during the lifetime of those messengers and not in a lonely, radical, unsupported and speculative manner challenging that the people should modify their beliefs about the true message as he wishes. He is simply supporting those messengers during their deliverance.
Message you do not need an authorization from God to understand the message of the script and express your opinion. You need authoriztion from God to set up laws and rules and start judging people. No authorization is needed to change to the better peacefully. Every one has their own brains and is up to them to accept or reject the change
At the time of Muhammad before the revelation of the Quran majority of the world did not understand the true comcept of monotheism so there was a need for Quran as a God given authority to muhammad to bring about a change without giving rise to slightest reason for doubt and speculation. At present the muslim world is radically different from the theories put forward by Quran only scholars. So practically we are at the same point as Prophet muhammad was before Quranic revelation in the light of speculative theories prsented by Quran only people. To genuinely convince that the world has lost the true message delivered by Muhammad there is a need for God given authority, sign or a mriaculous set of phenomena. How could one equalise a personal intellectual research to God given authority? To faithfully convince one's heart there should not be a slightest chance for human flaw. Quran only movement has no practical solutions required to bring about a mass change. If you have read philosophical theories then you would know how difficult it is just to form a belief based a chain of reasons without a link to practicality. Human nature is to doubt, so to convice for a radical change a radical approach to no less than God given authority is needed. If the truth of Muhammad's true message is lost it could only be regained with direct intervention from God and not through endless human research for reasoning since it would only create more confusion, misunderstandings, self guilt whether someone may have wronged one's soul by altering what God's truth may have been in reality and constant anxiety of being in a lost world.
How do you think people of ignorance who died in a state of ignorance just before muhammad officially delivered his message would be Judged. Some of them might had theories like Muhammad had that something was wrong with the system but what could they have possibly done? Their personal theories of purifying bible concepts to bring a mass change would have been unconvincing like Quran only people's theories are without God given authority. You could only follow peacefully best within the system. To convince one's version of belief superior to others and as the only ultimate truth one needs solid miraculous phenomena such as a creature speaking or a prophecy being fulfilled or a similar God given authority.
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Whatever the reason is, at the end he kept a low profile. It is not because he is a slave, but because he is not used to leadership (even among slaves there are who enjoy this character).
You mean all the Messenger who couldn't stop their people from idol worshiping kept low profile? Did Allah send Messenger to stop people forcefully? Whatever Prophet Harun did he did as a Messenger. Infact God didn't tell this story without a purpose. Idol worshipping is less harmful as compare to divisions. Divisions cause chaos and disorder in the society.
Do you know why Moses asked God to send Harun with him? Do you also know why God says half punishment for slaves?
Better compare him to the Samiri who lead them to worship an idol. He is also a slave.
Samiry was not a messenger, better read the story of Moses again. You are comparing Messneger of God with a bound to hell Kaafir? Just because like many other messengers he was unable to stop his people? God has told us not even compare Messengers! It was God who made Harun a Messenger, do you know better than God?
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You mean all the Messenger who couldn't stop their people from idol worshiping kept low profile?
Did I say that? If I did not say that Moses kept low profile, and Moses is a messenger, then I can't have said this argument.
Do you know why Moses asked God to send Harun with him? Do you also know why God says half punishment for slaves?
For moral support.
No, God did not. God does not condone slavery.Samiry was not a messenger, better read the story of Moses again. You are comparing Messneger of God with a bound to hell Kaafir? Just because like many other messengers he was unable to stop his people? God has told us not even compare Messengers! It was God who made Harun a Messenger, do you know better than God?
I know who Saamiri is. I am not comparing righteousness. I am comparing two slaves, because you claimed that Moses was a leader because he was not a slave, but Haroun was not because he was a slave. The context was about slavery and freedom as factors for leadership, not righteousness and kufr.
You were the one comparing messengers, I did not. Nor did I wonder why God made Haroun a messenger. How do you process what you read?
You are soooooo off point.
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You were the one comparing messengers, I did not.
So you didn't compare? Did I say the following
What you do after that depends on your character either be an Aaron and keep a low profile, or be a Musa and destroy the calf.
Whatever the reason is, at the end he kept a low profile. It is not because he is a slave, but because he is not used to leadership (even among slaves there are who enjoy this character). Better compare him to the Samiri who lead them to worship an idol. He is also a slave.
Did I say that? If I did not say that Moses kept low profile, and Moses is a messenger, then I can't have said this argument.
Then how Harun kept low profile and Moses did not?
For moral support.
Unfortunately Moses himself didn't know that reason, here is what Moses said
2029-36
"And allow for me an advisor from my family."
Haroun, my brother,
Strengthen my back by him,
"And share with him my mission."
That both of us strive hard together.
And we raise every step remembering Your Commands.
"You Have been watcher over us."
He said "You have been given what you asked O Moses."Harun was a Messenger of God and Moses knew it very well!
I know who Saamiri is. I am not comparing righteousness. I am comparing two slaves, because you claimed that Moses was a leader because he was not a slave, but Haroun was not because he was a slave. The context was about slavery and freedom as factors for leadership, not righteousness and kufr.
Whatever the reason is, at the end he kept a low profile. It is not because he is a slave, but because he is not used to leadership
And why do you think he was not used to leadership?
No, God did not. God does not condone slavery.
I was refering to the mental state and behaviour of slaves
For the captive women
425 ...then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women.Why half punishment for the captive women?
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Salaam abrar
You have taken the verses out of context. According to the full context of the surrounding verses that man believed in the message of the messengers who were being rejected by his people. He simply repeated and reinforced the message without raising speculations and debates with the people about the nature of the message. By reading the verses it seems to be a black and white difference between rejectors and believers and not a complicated true believer debate. That man had no God given authority so he claimed nothing radically new or unseen before. He simply repeated what messengers delivered in simple words. He does not seem to be a lonely man claiming that he only knows what the messengers are delivering. He lived in the time of those messengers as indicated in the verse.
Couldn't one understand the same just from the verses I quoted? The bold part is your analysis, which is not necessarily what others will infer even if they read the whole chapter.
Anyway, I quoted the part that showed the man had no God given authority, and you are repeating the same finding. So what did your "full" context add?He is simply repeating as a supporter of those messengers during the lifetime of those messengers and not in a lonely, radical, unsupported and speculative manner challenging that the people should modify their beliefs about the true message as he wishes. He is simply supporting those messengers during their deliverance.
How do you know that he lived in the same time of those messengers? Where is it indicated?
So, what exactly was he telling the people? "The story of the three messengers", or practically asking them to believe in one God? We were not told they killed the messengers, so why kill their supporter? Because they concluded from his pacifist reminder that he wanted them to modify their believes and they considered that he had no God given authority to do so.
At present the muslim world is radically different from the theories put forward by Quran only scholars. So practically we are at the same point as Prophet muhammad was before Quranic revelation in the light of speculative theories prsented by Quran only people. To genuinely convince that the world has lost the true message delivered by Muhammad there is a need for God given authority, sign or a mriaculous set of phenomena.
Yes, and we just have that The qur'aan. What is the message of the qur'aan aloners? Go back to the qur'aan. Does this need a new messenger? Their example is that of the "supporter" of the messengers. Just repeating what the messengers( Muhammad, in this case) said and support him. Aren't we repeating what Muhammad said, to hold on to the qur'aan alone? Isn't ignoring the qur'aan what Muhammad would hold "his people" responsible for on DJ? But the people see us as threatening their way of belief and want them to modify it, like the people who killed the supporter, and are literally calling for our blood shedding.
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And you call this comparing? I did not put a value to any behaviour followed by either prophet. Haroun kept quiet and preferred unity over idol worshipping, and Moses took the opposite stand. I did not side one over the other, but said it depends on the personality.
know who Saamiri is. I am not comparing righteousness. I am comparing two slaves, because you claimed that Moses was a leader because he was not a slave, but Haroun was not because he was a slave. The context was about slavery and freedom as factors for leadership, not righteousness and kufr.
The underlined part is what YOU claimed. It is not my saying.
Just a question why do you highlight parts of my message and do not comment? What should the reader understand? That the word "low profile" offends you?
How would one keep la ow profile? By avoiding confrontation. Did Haroun confront the people? No.
Harun was a Messenger of God and Moses knew it very well!
So? Anyone said otherwise? confused
For the captive women
425 ...then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women.Why half punishment for the captive women?
Captive women? This is your own understanding, not mine. Moreover, since when Islam made prisoners of war (slaves), or encouraged muslims to have POW?
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The underlined part is what YOU claimed. It is not my saying.
know who Saamiri is. I am not comparing righteousness. I am comparing two slaves, because you claimed that Moses was a leader because he was not a slave, but Haroun was not because he was a slave. The context was about slavery and freedom as factors for leadership, not righteousness and kufr.
Just a question why do you highlight parts of my message and do not comment? What should the reader understand? That the word "low profile" offends you?
"Leader and leadership" are your own words. This is WHAT I SAID!!
Harun was a Messenger as well, if he couldn't stop his people why he is a low profile? Don't we know many other messengers who failed to stop their people from Idol worshiping? The only reason I could understand why people didn't listen Prophet Harun is just because he was also a slave like them before he became a Messenger but Prophet Moses was never a slave, he was a prince of Egypt and had authority over people. People listened him because they used to obey him already they always saw him as a Pharaoh.
How would one keep la ow profile? By avoiding confrontation. Did Haroun confront the people? No.
I ask again...WHY Harun kept low profile and Moses didn't? WHICH VERSE IN QURAN SAYS PROPHET HARUN DIDN'T CONFRONT THE PEOPLE?
Captive women? This is your own understanding, not mine. Moreover, since when Islam made prisoners of war (slaves), or encouraged muslims to have POW?
You avoided my question again. HERE is the complete VERSE
425 Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Why slave women's punishment is half? Do you know there were slave people in the society at the time of prophet? If you think this verse doesn't talk about slave wome then I post it in a new thread would you explain that for me?