Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Peace Rajah,
rajah-What do you mean by ambiguous verses?? and all those researchers research work is just a crap which i noted??
Hail to you then!!!!http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/coolani.gif That the spirit bro
rajah-Since you have not explained, (I guess deliberately) let us move on.
you have the right to guess bro )
Rajah-
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.So this clearly refutes the claim of ayman who said that house of Allah can be any where.
Bro Rajah what is clear to you in the above verse is unfortunately not clear to me at all?the exact location of the holy house cannot be clearly established from the above verse, neither can the location of the ?uncultivable valley? be clearly established.
This is an ambiguous verse that leaves a lot of space for speculations.rajah
2. Yes! and infact i showed you already but for one more timeThe first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; WHOEVER ENTERS IT ATTAINS SECURITY; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 396-97)"
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Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at BEKKA, blessed and a guidance for the nations.
Inna awwala baitiw wudi'a linna_si lallazi bi BAKKATA muba_rakw wa hudal lil'a_lamin(a). -
And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of MECCA after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.
Wa huwal lazi kaf fa aidiyahum ankum wa aidiyakum anhum bibatnikMAK KATA min badi an azfarakum alaihim wa ka_nal la_hu bima_ tamalu_na basira_
*Why two different names are mentioned in different verses for the same particular place?
*Isn?t it an indication that BACCA and MECCA are two different places and not one?
rajah
3. Yes! Galatians 425 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 425)"
"He said 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 332)"Next points in next post
brother we are going in circles, I have enough evidence to believe that Ibrahim/Hagar/Ismail never came to Mecca.
The geographical location of Mecca, the verses 2846, 323, 366 of Quran and the verses from bible I have posted are enough evidence for me ??you on the other hand have your evidence to believe that they did came to Mecca??neither will you follow a wrong path intentionally, nor will I, its just a matter of understanding?.. I will second Sis Samia statement that ?I am here to learn and will not shy from saying I was ignorant on this or that matter?.
I was brought up in a traditional family, the maternal side of my family is mainly shias and the paternal side mainly sunni, after studying quran in my own language my whole concept about religion/belief changed and I have learned that with the passage of time, with knowledge and personal experiences in life, concepts do change?..so I am not afraid of changing, however now the evidence required for a change is based upon logical/evidence rather then emotional or religious based evidences.
rajah-but for the three questions of yours which have been answered I have only One
Where is the House of Allah located??
If I knew positively where it was?.I wouldn?t be discussing it.
So my answer is ?It could be anywhere?.We generally regard all the mosques or other places of worship, as house of Allah. The mosque of regent park London, Badshahi mosque of Lahore and Delhi, Faisal mosques in Islamabad etc, none of these or any others mosque on this planet were build by Ibrahim, but they are still sacred places for us.
Rajah-why did then Muslims and Muhammad kept on facing the Jerusalem as Qibla in yearly years of his preaching??
Common Sense the Kaaba was full of idols then, and the House of Allah had been corrupted again by the corrupters, now in early part of preaching if MUHAMMAD started praying facing towards Kaaba that is in Makah, what message would have it conveyed, it would have opened the doors of conspiracies due to the nature of Meccans. In Madina until and when the original message of Abraham was re-established and the new Muslims became confident in their faith, then only the Qibla was shifted back to Kaaba.
Brother this is your understanding regarding the changing of qibla and you may be right in your own way, but others have their own point of view and their own understand regarding this change.
According to the history the change of qibla took place in 624 and the conquest of Mecca in 630?..SO FOR SIX YEARS MUSLIMS WERE FACING AND PRAYING TOWARDS A QIBLA WHICH WAS FULL OF PAGAN IDOLS AND THE WORSHIP OF FALSE GODS WAS THE DAILY PRACTICE AT THIS SHRINE, so I am not sure what do you mean by restoring of the original message of Ibrahim.
There are also those who say that the change of qibla was not from Jerusalem to Mecca but the other way around.
And there are many who give these reasons
Muhammad sought to win the Jews to Islam, and adopting their direction of prayer was one of the tools employed in this endeavor. After it became clear that the Jews would never follow him, he turned against them, and abandoned the fasting at Ashura and the Qiblah that he had chosen to impress them and win them over. After Muhammad had lost hope that the Jewish and Christian communities would join his movement, the only groups he could still hope to unite in his religion were the various pagan tribes of Arabia.Muhammad had followed various religious observances of the Jews to gain their favor. Apparently for similar opportunistic reasons he now changed the Muslim Qiblah towards the Kabah, the central shrine of the Arab pagan religion, despite the fact that it was full of idols. It is hardly unfounded speculation when one gets the suspicion that he gave their holy place an important position in his religion in order to make it more attractive for the Arabs to join Islam.
O Muhammad, many a time We noticed you turning your face towards heaven; now We will make you turn towards a Qiblah THAT WILL PLEASE YOU. Turn your face during Salah towards the Sacred Mosque (Ka'bah); wherever you are turn your face in that direction. The people of the Book know this to be the truth from their Rabb. Allah is not unaware of what they do. S. 2144 F.
**Did Allah change the qibla in order to appease Muhammad?s desires and wishes?
**Was it a political move?According to Yunus b. ?Abd al-A?la ? Ibn Wahb ? Ibn Zayd The Prophet turned towards Jerusalem for sixteen months, and then it reached his ears that the Jews were saying, "By God, Muhammad and his companions did not know where their Qiblah was until we directed them." This displeased the Prophet and he raised his face toward Heaven, and God said, "We have seen the turning of your face to Heaven." (The History of Al-Tabari The Foundation of the Community, translated by M. V. McDonald, annotated by W. Montgomery Watt , Volume VII, pp. 24-25; )
While he was in Mecca he faced Syria in prayer, and when he prayed, he prayed between the southern corner and the black stone, putting the Ka?ba between himself and Syria? (The Life of Muhammad A Translation of Ishaq?s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume , p. 135)
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith-Hadith 6.19-Narrated by Al Bara.
We prayed along with the Prophet facing Jerusalem for sixteen or seventeen months. Then Allah ordered him to turn his face towards the Qibla (in Mecca)
"And from whence-so-ever you start forth (for prayers) turn your face in the direction of (the Sacred Mosque of Mecca) Al-Masjid-ul Haram..." (2.149)Sunan of Abu-Dawood- Hadith 3299- Narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah
A man stood on the day of Conquest (of Mecca) and said Apostle of Allah, I have vowed to Allah that if He grants conquest of Mecca at your hands, I SHALL PRAY TWO RAK'AHS IN JERUSALEM. He replied Pray here. He repeated (his statement) to him and he said Pray here. He again repeated (his statement) to him. He (the Prophet) replied Pursue your own course, then.Sunan of Abu-Dawood-Hadith 3300-Narrated by AbdurRahman ibn Awf
The tradition mentioned above (No.3299) has also been transmitted by Umar ibn AbdurRahman ibn Awf on the authority of his father and the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This version has "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said By Him Who sent Muhammad with truth, IF YOU PRAYED HERE, THIS WOULD BE SUFFICIENT FOR YOU LIKE THE PRAYER IN JERUSALEM."**Even at the time of Mecca?s conquest and after, some preferred worshiping/praying in Jerusalem confused
rajah-Come on Samia be reasonable and let the discussion move on.
You must be listening to "DR SHER AFGAN NAIZI" a lot, as this is his favorite quote. ;D
peace
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Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
So this clearly refutes the claim of ayman who said that house of Allah can be any where.
Bro Rajah what is clear to you in the above verse is unfortunately not clear to me at all?the exact location of the holy house cannot be clearly established from the above verse, neither can the location of the ?uncultivable valley? be clearly established.
This is an ambiguous verse that leaves a lot of space for speculations.Al-Quran
An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.Sure I will take the words of Allah as Allah says it is without any ambguity, where ever you find it ambigious.
Al-Quran
In a clear Arabic tongue.Al-Quran
We have revealed it an Arabic Quran, that you may understandAl-Quran
And We are aware that they say "A human is teaching him." The language of the one they refer to is foreign, while this is a clear Arabic languageThese verses show us that Quran was revealed in Arabic! and Pure Arabic, so from this we can safely conclude that Allah is talking about a Place where people speak pure arabic? So who spoke pure arabic at those times? People any where? people in Jerusalem or in Arabia near and around Makkah.
And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing. Holy Qur'an (2127)
Is there any other building in the world who has been built by Ismail and Abraham? other than Kaaba in MAKKAH?
Jersulem was established a place of prayer much later.Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
As Allah has said Quran is not ambigious and I will also try to show you that there is nothing unclear in the above verse
Ponder on this verse, Abraham has settled his family in an uncultivable valley near unto Allah's house are mentioned in different verses for the same particular place?*Isn?t it an indication that BACCA and MECCA are two different places and not one?
No they are not; Quran uses different names for Allah, Rehman, Raheem Allah etc. so are there more than one Allah?? Bait-ul-ateeq, Bait Allah are they two different places, Muhammad, Ahmed are they two different persons?
Agent xxx
brother we are going in circles, I have enough evidence to believe that Ibrahim/Hagar/Ismail never came to Mecca.
That evidence is being discussed and I will discuss all your posts regarding this, we have reached and answered your five quetsions I guess.
The geographical location of Mecca, the verses 2846, 323, 366 of Quran and the verses from bible I have posted are enough evidence for me ??
Ok we are going to discuss it next, regarding brother ayman may Allah guide him and show him right path, he has misguided many.
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Peace Rajah,
Quote
Bro Rajah what is clear to you in the above verse is unfortunately not clear to me at all?the exact location of the holy house cannot be clearly established from the above verse, neither can the location of the ?uncultivable valley? be clearly established.
This is an ambiguous verse that leaves a lot of space for speculations.Rajah.
Al-Quran
An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.Sure I will take the words of Allah as Allah says it is without any ambguity, where ever you find it ambigious.
Who says this?
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book IN IT ARE VERSES BASIC OR FUNDAMENTAL (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book OTHERS ARE ALLEGORICAL. BUT THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS PERVERSITY FOLLOW THE PART THEREOF THAT IS ALLEGORICAL, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. 3 7.
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C347. This passage gives us an important clue to the interpretation of the Holy Qur-an. Broadly speaking it may be divided into two portions, not given separately, but intermingled viz. (1) the nucleus or foundation of the Book, literally "the mother of the Book". (2) THE PART WHICH IS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR. It is very fascinating to take up the latter, and exercise our ingenuity about its meaning, but it refers to such profound matters that are beyond human language and though people of wisdom may get some light from it, NO ONE SHOULD BE DOGMATIC, as THE FINAL MEANING IS KNOWN TO ALLAH ALONE.
rajah-Al-Quran
In a clear Arabic tongue.Al-Quran
We have revealed it an Arabic Quran, that you may understandAl-Quran
And We are aware that they say "A human is teaching him." The language of the one they refer to is foreign, while this is a clear Arabic languageThese verses show us that Quran was revealed in Arabic! and Pure Arabic, so from this we can safely conclude that Allah is talking about a Place where people speak pure arabic? So who spoke pure arabic at those times? People any where? people in Jerusalem or in Arabia near and around Makkah.
Quran was revealed in Arabic for people who understood this language, but we are not discussing where quran was revealed.
We are discussing Ibrahim and the construction of the sacred mosque??..was the language of Ibrahim ?Arabic?? How does this support the construction of kaaba?
And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing. Holy Qur'an (2127)
rajah- Is there any other building in the world who has been built by Ismail and Abraham? other than Kaaba in MAKKAH?
Yes? the sacred mosque that is not in Mecca.
2127 doesn?t say they raised the foundations of the house in Mecca.rajah- Jersulem was established a place of prayer much later.
And yet all the prophets before Mohammad were living some where around Jerusalem?.did they not worshiping the almighty?
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
As Allah has said Quran is not ambigious and I will also try to show you that there is nothing unclear in the above verse
Ponder on this verse, Abraham has settled his family in an uncultivable valley near unto Allah's house are mentioned in different verses for the same particular place?*Isn?t it an indication that BACCA and MECCA are two different places and not one?
No they are not; Quran uses different names for Allah, Rehman, Raheem Allah etc. so are there more than one Allah?? Bait-ul-ateeq, Bait Allah are they two different places, Muhammad, Ahmed are they two different persons?
I think we are discussing the name of a PLACE and not Allah and his messengers or a building.
Agent xxx
brother we are going in circles, I have enough evidence to believe that Ibrahim/Hagar/Ismail never came to Mecca.rajah-That evidence is being discussed and I will discuss all your posts regarding this, we have reached and answered your five quetsions I guess.
Yes you may have answered five questions?but are they ration answers??..NO
agentxxx-The geographical location of Mecca, the verses 2846, 323, 366 of Quran and the verses from bible I have posted are enough evidence for me ??
rajah- Ok we are going to discuss it next, REGARDING BROTHER AYMAN MAY ALLAH GUIDE HIM AND SHOW HIM RIGHT PATH, HE HAS MISGUIDED MANY.
So to be on the right path it is necessary to follow what you say?
According to Quran the definition of the right path
Say Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that YOU DO NOT ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH HIM and SHOW KINDNESS TO YOUR PARENTS, and DO NOT SLAY YOUR CHILDREN for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and DO NOT DRAW NIGH TO INDECENCIES, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and DO NOT KILL THE SOUL WHICH ALLAH HAS FORBIDDEN except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand. 6151.
- And DO NOT APPROACH THE PROPERTY OF THE ORPHAN except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and GIVE FULL MEASURE AND WEIGHT WITH JUSTICE-- We do not impose on any soul a duty except to the extent of its ability; and WHEN YOU SPEAK, THEN BE JUST though it be (against) a relative, and fulfill Allah's covenant; THIS HE HAS ENJOINED YOU WITH THAT YOU MAY BE MINDFUL;
- And (know) that THIS IS MY PATH, THE RIGHT ONE therefore follow it, and FOLLOW NOT (OTHER) WAYS, FOR THEY WILL LEAD YOU AWAY FROM HIS WAY; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil)
Conclusion
DO NOT ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH HIM
SHOW KINDNESS TO YOUR PARENTS
DO NOT SLAY YOUR CHILDREN
DO NOT DRAW NIGH TO INDECENCIES
DO NOT KILL THE SOUL WHICH ALLAH HAS FORBIDDEN
DO NOT APPROACH THE PROPERTY OF THE ORPHAN
GIVE FULL MEASURE AND WEIGHT WITH JUSTICE
WHEN YOU SPEAK, THEN BE JUSTQURAN SAYS THOSE WHO FOLLOW THESE COMMANDMENTS ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH.
- AND FOLLOW THE BEST THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;
Quran also say
449. Have you not considered THOSE WHO ATTRIBUTE PURITY TO THEMSELVES? Nay, ALLAH PURIFIES WHOM HE PLEASES; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.I am sorry to say that your comments about brother ayman are ridicules .
peace
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Greetings & Peace,
I apologize for interrupting, I want to share something with the community
2140 "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene?" Say "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."And
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Therefore, whatever conclusions one might come to understand, this issue is probably not "Piety" - as stated in the above verse.
Therefore, to me, this whole issue is not of real significance, because either way they are both "rocks/stones" - and we don't worship that - we worship God alone. Therefore, what is more important would rather be to believe in God and do good works
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
6511 A messenger who recites to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him and excellent reward.
Yes, we all want to find the truth of many issues but only God can provide it to whom he wills, so let us not be rude to each other - making enemies. We can surely continue to discuss to make effort for God to provide us with the truth - but only God can provide us with it - so it would rather be done in a peaceful/pious/best manner. God sees all that you do, do it with reverence to Him.
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Greetings & Peace,
I apologize for interrupting, I want to share something with the community
2140 "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene?" Say "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."And
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Therefore, whatever conclusions one might come to understand, this issue is probably not "Piety" - as stated in the above verse.
Therefore, to me, this whole issue is not of real significance, because either way they are both "rocks/stones" - and we don't worship that - we worship God alone. Therefore, what is more important would rather be to believe in God and do good works
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
6511 A messenger who recites to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him and excellent reward.
Yes, we all want to find the truth of many issues but only God can provide it to whom he wills, so let us not be rude to each other - making enemies. We can surely continue to discuss to make effort for God to provide us with the truth - but only God can provide us with it - so it would rather be done in a peaceful/pious/best manner. God sees all that you do, do it with reverence to Him. )
Peace Zidane very good post bro bravo
peace
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Greetings & Peace,
I apologize for interrupting, I want to share something with the community
2140 "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene?" Say "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.Salaam Zidane
A very good post. The two verses quoted are more than enough to debunk the rituals of hajj which are a replay of a part of the life of Ibrahim and his family. If God says that we will not be asked about what they did/usd to do, how come some believe that He is commanding us to make a small play telling what Ibrahim did or what his wife did!
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Greetings & Peace to all,
) Thanks agentxxx, Samia, I'm happy that you appreciate it. peace
If God says that we will not be asked about what they did/usd to do, how come some believe that He is commanding us to make a small play telling what Ibrahim did or what his wife did!
) Wow, Samia, a very interesting & good point. peace
May God Guide
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" ".
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 570
Bukhari
Narrated Ibn AbbasThe Prophet entered the Ka'ba and found in it the pictures of (Prophet) Abraham and Mary. On that he said' "What is the matter with them ( i.e. Quraish)? They have already heard that angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures; yet this is the picture of Abraham. And why is he depicted as practicing divination by arrows?"
Picture of Mary inside the Kaaba? It means Christians also used to pray in Kaaba.... I didn't know that however.
peace
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Why you people are changing the topic? 'coz that hadith clearly refutes you people's claim that Christians didn't pray in Kaaba! Do you have any explanation of that hadith? Why the picture of Mary in the Kaaba?
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Why you people are changing the topic? 'coz that hadith clearly refutes you people's claim that Christians didn't pray in Kaaba! Do you have any explanation of that hadith? Why the picture of Mary in the Kaaba?
who said that confused
How did they know they were Meriam and Ibrahim? Anyone saw them and can verify? Maybe she was some Isis and he was some Osiris (3uzair)?
Was Ibrahim known as one who practiced divination by arrows?folk lores! maybe???
peace
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Rajah
Sure I will take the words of Allah as Allah says it is without any ambguity, where ever you find it ambigious.
agentxxx
Who says this?
Allah says this! and I have quoted the verse
An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.
Agentxxx
NO ONE SHOULD BE DOGMATIC, as THE FINAL MEANING IS KNOWN TO ALLAH ALONE
.Oh! so we have a Mullah agentxxx now, a good shift, if the final meaning is known by Allah then we should leave it to Allah, what is the all fuss about, why are you and few others trying distorting historical and religous facts.
Agentxxx
Quran was revealed in Arabic for people who understood this language, but we are not discussing where quran was revealed.
We are discussing Ibrahim and the construction of the sacred mosque??..was the language of Ibrahim ?Arabic?? How does this support the construction of kaaba?
That is very important dear friend, becuase by knowing where the Quran was revealed and to whom Quran was revealed we can arrive at who built the Kaaba that is in Mecca?
Quran was revealed in Arabic and to Arabs, therefore they are the nation which has been given importance by Allah to lead the world in FUTURE weather yOU, AYMAN or anyone likes it or not!
Now we go back to the Verses I quoted above
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.This verse clearly tells us settling of Ismail in an Uncultivable Land near Allah's house, Now if the Allah's house was the Mosque in Aqsa that is in Jerusalem and which is not uncultivable then where did ISAAC and other Prophets lived?
Infact as I wrote earlier
When prophethood was found among the descendants of Abraham (Isaac?), the Aqsa Mosque was the hub of events and the mosque of the descendants of Isaac. But when Allah removed prophethood and scripture from them, and placed it among the descendants of Ishmael, it was His will that the Prophet be born in the Sacred land itself, so that all the Arabs without exception, would know that he was a descendant of Ishmael.AGENTXXX
And yet all the prophets before Mohammad were living some where around Jerusalem?.did they not worshiping the almighty?
I THINK YOU DONOT READ the posts of opposing party, and just keep on bringing out what is in your mind from here and there. I have given you some verses from Bible indicating that they praised Allah while facing Makkah.
Secondly that is not what we are discussing it will take another long session for this, therefore let us stick to the topic.Agent xxx
I think we are discussing the name of a PLACE and not Allah and his messengers or a building.
Come on you are just clutching the straws now.
Agent Xxx
Yes you may have answered five questions?but are they ration answers??..NO
Well that is not for you to decide. I would loved to be engaged with Tanveer on this topic but due to some unknown reasons he did not responded and you were only one who kept on posting, therefore you were the only choice. What I am posting here despite lack of time is just to give the other side view of the coin.
And YEs by calling Quran Ambigious I think you just ended up being a Hypocrite (sorry to say)
the Ayat 37 saysHe is the One who sent down to you the scripture, from which there are law giving verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which seem similar to each other. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what seems similar of it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge. They say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
In its narrow meaning, "mutashabih" refers to all verses which can be understood in more than one ways. This includes all kind of allegories. The various meaning or implication of the same words require some qualities in the audience attentive mind, positive attitude, contextual perspective, and patience for research
The intention of those who try to understand the multiple-meaning verses is important. With the disease in their hearts, they try to confuse others by focusing on multiple meaning verses. Since only sincere believers possess the quality to understand the Quran (1746; 1857; 5417), hypocrites will not be able to find the true meaning of multiple-meaning words.
In order to believe in all the verses of the Quran, one does not need to be deeply rooted in knowledge. To be a "believer" is a sufficient condition to beleive all the verses. However, one needs to have deep knowledge of the Quran in order to understand "mutashabih" (multiple meaning) verses accurately. Therefore, 37 mentions a narrow category (those who deeply rooted in knowledge) in relation with those multiple meaning verses.
You have denied the word of ALLAH on various occassions like ayman for example here
RajahWhere is the House of Allah located??
Agentxxx
If I knew positively where it was?.I wouldn?t be discussing it.
So my answer is ?It could be anywhere?.But ALLah says it is
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
So the Allah's house is near to
an uncultivable Valley and NOT ANY WHERE. according to Quran.Next I will expose your Family tree regarding Muhammad.
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Agent XXX
They may have been good in memorizing and repeating the family tree ???..but they were definitely not good at remembering the massage of their ancestor IBRAHIM, and in only 30 generation they changed from worshiping ?Allah alone? to worshiping ?365 idols?.
and why cant these idol worshipers lie about the origin of mecca....which was their only source of economy?According to ibn Ishak there is a gap of only 50 generations between Adam and Mohammad
is this the type of historical evidence you support bro?
I don't know what exactly do you call evidence? as you have shown in your previous posts, No evidence that opposes your thoughts is evidence.
In Most of the family trees only the important personalities are some time listed and rest are edited. But your family tree is erraneous and don't know what is your source for that.
From Muhammad to Adnan (21)
the son of ABD ALLAH,
son of ABD-UL-MUTTALIB,
son of HASHIM,
son of Abdu Manaf,
son of Qusay,
son of Kilab,
son of Hakeem,
son of Kaab,
son of Luayy,
son of Ghalib,
son of Fihr,
son of Malik,
son of Qays,
son of Kinanah,
son of Khuzaymah,
son of Mudrikah,
son of Ilyas,
son of Mudhar,
son of Nizar,
son of Maad,
son of Adnan,from Adnan to Keedar it is (39) generations
Udd
Hamseeah
Salaman
Aus
Boz
Qamwaal
Ubi
Awam
Nashid
Hiza
Baldaas
Yadlaaf
Tanj
Jahem
Nahish
MaKhi
Aifi
Abqar
Ubaid
Aldua
Hamdaan
Sunber
Yasrabi
Yahzan
Yalhan
Arouway
Deshaan
Aiser
Iqnaad
Ibhaam
Muqsir
Nahis
Zarh
Sami
Muzi
Auwiz
Araam
KeedarThus making it 60 and we are more concerned up to here and then from Ismail to Adam 20 more as is in Bible thus making the total 80 generations.
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agentxxx
The mobile reference was not funny, it was rational reference to know how otherwise ishaq could have communicated with Ismail who was living 1000 km from him?..you avoided answering it by simply calling it ?funny question?.
Rational reference brickwall
There could have been many possibilities
- ISmail and ISaac were both beloved of Allah they could have informed through "WAHI".
- They could have communicated with each other through Telepathy.
- They could have preserved the dead body, I mentioned Mummies of egypt no rotting, so there were chances that Isaac and his man may have known how to preserve the dead body of Abraham and then ISmail after a period had arrived at the scene.
So there could be more than one, but of using mobile phone is just mocking, the powers of Allah and his prophets.
Infact you made joke of the Prophets of Allah.
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Further exposing Agentxxx
Mount puran in kharian was meant to be funny as a response to your funny interpretation of mount paran in Mecca???if ?mount paran in kharian? can be funny for you then why cant ?mount paran in Mecca? can be funny for someone else???..when both these interpretations are based on assumption
Mount Paran being in Arabia is not based on assumption but on some resarchers comments as I posted. But If you can present a single comment, work, research that places Mt.Paran in Kharian, I might consider you to be a serious contender for discussing what we are discussing, other wise your grading will further deteriorate in our eyes. I give you one whole week for this.
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Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
One of the driest and hottest countries of the world, ninety percent of Arabia is made up of barren desert. The geological and physical features of the land along with its climatic conditions have kept its population, in the days gone by and also in the present time, to the minimum and hindered the flowering of large civilizations and empires.
Ibrahim had implored the Lord to bless his descendants with his own spirit of struggle against the evil of pantheism and iconolatry. He wanted his heirs to carry into their thoughts how he had to strive all his life for the sake of Truth and Faith; how he had to bid farewell to his hearth and home; realize why he had incurred the wrath of his idolatrous father; and appreciate the wisdom behind his making a selection of that valley, unbelievably bare with no scrap of soil, sheer from top to bottom and jagged and sharp for their habitation. He wanted them to understand why he had preferred that wilderness, holding no prospects of progress and civilization, over verdant lands and flourishing towns and centers of trade, arts and commerce where one could easily meet one's wishes
The main reason for the advent of the last Prophet in Arabia was the Ka'ba, the House of God, built by Abraham and Ishmael as the center for worship of One God.
"Lo ! the first Sanctuary/house/shrine appointed for mankind was that at Becca , a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples."
Most of the old translators of the Bible gave this word the meaning of 'a valley of weeping', but better sense seems to have prevailed later on. According to more recent of the Biblical scholars, the word 'signifies rather any valley lacking water, and 'the Psalmist apparently has in mind a -particular valley whose natural condition led him to adopt that name. Now, this waterless valley, which can easily be identified with the valley of Makkah, has been thus mentioned in the Book of Psalms.
"Blessed art they that dwell in Your house; they will still be praising thee Selah. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; In whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well."
Abraham and Ismail prayed to Allah while laying down the foundation of KAABA that is in MAKKAH
"Our Lord! And raise up unto them an Messenger from among them, who shall recite unto them Your revelations, and shall teach them the Book and wisdom, and shall cleanse them. Verily You! You art the Mighty, the Wise."And the Mighty and Wise answered their prayers by sending "MUHAMMAD" to them.
History of Syria by Philip K. Hitti who writes about the religion of Nabataean kingdoms
"At the head of the pantheon stood Dushara (dhu-al-Shara, Dusara), a sun deity worshipped under the form of anobelisk or an unknown four-cornered black stone.... Associated with Dushara was Al-Lat, chief goddess of Arabia. Other Nabataean goddesses cited in the inscriptions were Manat and al-'Uzza, of Koranic fame, Hubal also figures in the inscriptions."
This clearly indicates that Quranic Kaaba is the same that is in Makkah because these above named dieties were to be found only in Makkah.
Another writer, De Lacy O'Leary, tracing the influences responsible for introduction of idol worship in the Arabian Peninsula sums up his findings in the "Arabia before Muhammed" in these words
"It seems fairly safe therefore to understand that the use of images was an instance of Syro-Hellenistic culture which had come down the trade-route; it was a recent introduction in Makkah in the time of the Prophet and was probably unknown to the Arab community at large."
Allah ho Akbar.